End-Time Deception - Hebrew Roots/Messianic Movement

[James Forthwright]

You might want to focus more on just studying scripture.
To be clear, Jesus openly admitted to working on the sabbath, which is a transgression of the law, but answered His accusers that "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath.”
The Bible doesn't say that Jesus never transgressed the Law, but says that He was without sin and always did what was pleasing to the Father.

16 For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. 17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”
18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. 19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner."

If you're unable to understand the how and why of Jesus' ministry, you'll never understand your liberty in Christ or the opposition between self righteousness and the righteousness of faith. I won't tell you how to live, but the law was given to confine everyone under sin and can not perfect righteousness.

18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, 19 for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God. Hebrews 7:18-19

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Galatians 3:21-23

The Hebrew festivals are indeed rich with meaning pointing to Christ, but when you've recieved Him, they've already met their purpose.
When I was young and Catholic, I wanted to be a Jew. Now I'm old and having been born twice, I'm content with what the Lord created me to be.

 

[James Forthwright]

Thanks for your response, Michael. However, your reply is incorrect on several counts.

First of all, Jesus was "Accused of transgression of God's Law" but the charges were completely false and without merit. He was only ever guilty of breaking the hypocritical Jewish Pharisees interpretation of the Law and transgressing their manmade religious traditions. Jesus could never qualify as the redemptive spotless Lamb of God (His primary purpose for His incarnation) had He ever actually transgressed God's Law. You'll search the scriptures in vain to find any account of where Jesus actually broke the Law of God.

Secondly, you are correct in stating that "the Sabbath was made for man as well as that the Son of Man's Lordship" over that eternally blessed day of rest. However, there is no scriptural basis ever stated that the Sabbath was to be abolished. Once again, it was the over-zealous Jewish leaders who corrupted the Sabbath with their countless worldly religious traditions and Talmudic additions. The Sabbath remains a blessed day of rest for all mankind for those that continue to obey God's commandment to "Honor the Sabbath day". None of Ten Commandments have been abolished. It's perfectly OK to do God's work on the Sabbath day and follow Jesus' earthly example.

Also, Jesus' claim to be equal with God was a statement of fact and the many marvelous works He performed testified of His divine origin.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Thanks for your response, Michael. However, your reply is incorrect on several counts.

First of all, Jesus was "Accused of transgression of God's Law" but the charges were completely false and without merit. He was only ever guilty of breaking the hypocritical Jewish Pharisees interpretation of the Law and transgressing their manmade religious traditions. Jesus could never qualify as the redemptive spotless Lamb of God (His primary purpose for His incarnation) had He ever actually transgressed God's Law. You'll search the scriptures in vain to find any account of where Jesus actually broke the Law of God.

Secondly, you are correct in stating that "the Sabbath was made for man as well as that the Son of Man's Lordship" over that eternally blessed day of rest. However, there is no scriptural basis ever stated that the Sabbath was to be abolished. Once again, it was the over-zealous Jewish leaders who corrupted the Sabbath with their countless worldly religious traditions and Talmudic additions. The Sabbath remains a blessed day of rest for all mankind for those that continue to obey God's commandment to "Honor the Sabbath day". None of Ten Commandments have been abolished. It's perfectly OK to do God's work on the Sabbath day and follow Jesus' earthly example.

Also, Jesus' claim to be equal with God was a statement of fact and the many marvelous works He performed testified of His divine origin.

Your argument is with scripture, not me. The inspired word of God says that Jesus broke the Sabbath and the Lord Himself did not deny it, but admitted as much, justifying it as doing God's work. You just don't understand what scripture teaches about the law and who it applies to. That's ok, most just don't get it.

“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
"Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”
Romans 4:7-8

 

[Truman]

The sabbath was meant by the Lord to be a blessing...some insist on turning it into a curse.
The sabbath existed before Abraham.

 

[michaelvpardo]

The sabbath was meant by the Lord to be a blessing...some insist on turning it into a curse.
The sabbath existed before Abraham.

Everything in the law was given as a blessing, to give Israel the opportunity to "live long in the land " and ultimately to reveal Christ, blessed forever. However, scripture can always be looked at in two opposing ways, dependent upon whether our "eyes" are good or evil.

22 “The lamp of the body is the eye. If therefore your eye is good, your whole body will be full of light. 23 But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in you is darkness, how great is that darkness! Matthew 6:22-23

5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:5-7

I can't imagine anything darker than the light of God's word turned to malevolent purpose, condemnation, and destruction. That's how Satan works.

 

[James Forthwright]

Michael, please supply some specific scriptures that verify your (fallacious) claim that Jesus was guilty of sin.

 

[Truman]

The law was given so that we would know what sin was. Under the old covenant a blood sacrifice was needed daily. Under the new covenant, Christ's once for all sacrifice is accessed when one goes to the cross...daily, if necessary.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Michael, please supply some specific scriptures that verify your (fallacious) claim that Jesus was guilty of sin.

Get a dictionary. Transgression and sin aren't the same thing or we wouldn't have two different words.
Actually your problem seems to be reading comprehension, as I made no such claim as that quoted above and you transgress by giving false testimony of what I've written. I've posted the word of God and it says what it says, even if your mind can't receive it,

 

[michaelvpardo]

The law was given so that we would know what sin was. Under the old covenant a blood sacrifice was needed daily. Under the new covenant, Christ's once for all sacrifice is accessed when one goes to the cross...daily, if necessary.

True, but incomplete in light of what scripture actually says of itself.
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:15
When we see it as a rule book, we've missed the mark. When we recieved Christ and then dismiss the law as irrelevant, we've also missed the mark. God's purpose is revealed in scripture as renewing us in the image of His Son, His express image, and that doesn't happen without all scripture and the perspective of grace.

 

[Truman]

I'm talking about living it (Luke 9:23) every day for 20 years.

 

[James Forthwright]

Get a dictionary. Transgression and sin aren't the same thing or we wouldn't have two different words.
Actually your problem seems to be reading comprehension, as I made no such claim as that quoted above and you transgress by giving false testimony of what I've written. I've posted the word of God and it says what it says, even if your mind can't receive it,

trans·gres·sion ( tr²ns-grµsh“…n, tr ²nz-) n. 1. A violation of a law, command, or duty: See note at breach . 2. The exceeding of due bounds or limits.

1Jn_3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Now, once again Michael, please cite some specific passages where Christ was guilty of transgressing God's law.

 

[Truman]

Okay, the fire of affliction (my intense suffering) seems to boil the water in me, which brings a sin from down in my heart into my consciousness. I see it, acknowledge it to the Lord, grieving as I'm aware of what He did on the cross for me personally, I repent with the Holy Spirit's power, turning that part of my heart back to the Lord 180%. In faith, I take that sin to my cross and nail it there.
The combination of "The Divine Plumb Line," seminar, by Dr. Bruce Thompson, "The Root And Fruit Of Pride," by Floyd McClung, and, "Release From The Curse," and, "Basics Of Deliverance," both by Derek Prince, was taught to me while I was at Jacob's Well's "Five Days Of Healing" retreat, but it was the power of the amazing Holy Spirit, is gave me the revelation of these teachings from His word.
I assure you, my friend, this is much more than rules. In my opinion, it is true apostolic discipleship.
As Amadeus would say, "Give the glory to God!"

 

[Ronald Nolette]

And remember Paul's admonishing words: "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."[/QUOTE]


Well this HR/M movements sounds just like lots of gentile movements with judging and spiritual arrogance. I know lots of Messianic believers who attend Messianic congregations who do not do legalism like this.

This sounds more like you should be going and addressing the congregations directly that have this problem as Matt. 18 commands us to do.

 

[James Forthwright]

And remember Paul's admonishing words: "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

Well this HR/M movements sounds just like lots of gentile movements with judging and spiritual arrogance. I know lots of Messianic believers who attend Messianic congregations who do not do legalism like this.

This sounds more like you should be going and addressing the congregations directly that have this problem as Matt. 18 commands us to do.[/QUOTE]

I presume you are responding to the Original Post? I agree that lengthy diatribe against the HR/M movement was completely unwarranted and evidently a devious ploy to sow discord amongst the brethren. The OP is now ten years old and "josiahandamanda" did not even have the courtesy to respond to any criticism.

As all Christian denominations, the Hebrew Roots/Messianic movement is not without its faults. However, I've been extremally blessed with their Torah studies in the last six years or so, especially Adam Fink's Parable of the Vineyard website:
www.youtube.com/channel/UCw8zcgrDQ68-gdZ5tbm2dww

 

[michaelvpardo]

trans·gres·sion ( tr²ns-grµsh“…n, tr ²nz-) n. 1. A violation of a law, command, or duty: See note at breach . 2. The exceeding of due bounds or limits.

1Jn_3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Now, once again Michael, please cite some specific passages where Christ was guilty of transgressing God's law.

I did, but you ignored them. How many times should I post them before you believe them? You even commented on part of one verse while misinterpreting the remainder of the same verse.
But I love wasting time reposting scripture over and over again so I'll do it once more for the remedial class.

16 For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath.
(This indeed is the transgression Jesus was "accused" of.)

17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”

This is Jesus' response to His accusers, not a denial of transgression, but openly admitting to it. To paraphrase, my dad works on the Sabbath, so I work on the Sabbath.

18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.
(This plainly states that the Jews wanted to kill Jesus because He "broke the Sabbath " (and did so regularly and intentionally with the previously stated justification, dad does it so I do it.) This verse was not written by His accusers, but by the Apostle John under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. He wrote that Jesus "broke the Sabbath ", because Jesus did break the Sabbath. He transgressed the letter of the law and never denied it. He did this frequently and not only with respect to the Sabbath.

In the example of the woman caught in the act of adultery, the law required that she and the adulterer with her, both were to be stoned to death. Jesus "broke the law" by forgiving her sin and preventing her stoning. He transgressed the "letter" of the law, but He didn't sin in it, because He was lead by the Spirit and demonstrated grace rather than judgment.

19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner." John 5:16-19

Sin is not transgressing the law. Sin is disobeying God.
The same God who wrote "Thou shall not murder" with His own finger upon the tablets of stone at Mt. Sinai, ordered the Israelites to put all the Canaanites to the sword, dedicated to destruction, men, women, children, and even their animals.
Did God make a mistake? Did He order His people to sin?
God is not capricious like the gods of the nations, nor does He change His mind, but remains eternally the same.
Jesus lived "under the law", but was not convicted by it nor confined to it any more than God the Father.

But we know the law is good if one uses it lawfully, 9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, 1 Timothy 8-10

Is any of this breaking through? Are the lights coming on in your head? Is the veil lifted? When you force the meaning of scripture to fit your doctrine rather than force your doctrine to fit scripture, you do violence to the word of God and make Him the author of confusion. Live like a slave if that's your desire, but it was for freedom that Christ set me free.

29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free. Galatians 4:29-31