Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
That proves nothing in relation to the coming of the Messiah. It does not say "unto the coming of the Messiah in Jerusalem".
It does not say how long after 69 weeks He would be cut off.
End times time frames by chapter and fit
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
No. That is completely unnecessary. The Bible has no charts and does not need to be explained with charts.
Here is what the 70 week prophecy is all about:
Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Here is my understanding of the fulfillment of each of the six things listed in Daniel 9:24. I will list the scriptures that I believe refer to the fulfillment of each of them.
1. To Finish Transgression
Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Hebrews 9:15 That is why he is the one who mediates the new covenant between God and people, so that all who are invited can receive the eternal inheritance God has promised them. For Christ died to set them free from the penalty of the sins they had committed under that first covenant.
John 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.
Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace".
John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
2. To Put an End to Sin
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
1 John 3:5 And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not.
2 Cor 5:21 For He hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.
1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: 24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
3. To Make Reconciliation for Iniquity
Hebrews 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
2 Corinthians 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
4. To Bring In Everlasting Righteousness
Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Romans 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Hebrews 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
5. To Seal Up the Vision and Prophecy
Luke 18:31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.
Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Matt 26:56 But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled.
6. To Anoint The Most Holy
Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
Acts 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed.
Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel.
Only Jesus could fulfill those things. Without His death and resurrection, none of those things could be fulfilled. So, if your interpretation of the 70 week prophecy does not have Him being cut off (crucified) within the 70th week, it is a false doctrine as His death is crucial to fulfilling the prophecy. He was to be cut off after the end of the 69th week (Daniel 9:26) and that placed the timing of His death within the 70th week during which He confirmed the new covenant and made the old covenant animal sacrifices and offerings obsolete.
Your misunderstanding is because you don't recognize that Jesus arrived as the messiah in Jerusalem in John 12:12-15 and 4 days later was cutoff.
The 70th week is still unfulfilled. The 1260 days of the first half are in Revelation 12:6. The time, times, half time of the second half are in Revelation 12:14.
Which is why a diagram is needed to show the fit of all the end times time frames in the bible.
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
That is your misunderstanding that you come to because of your doctrinal bias.
To me, to say that is to deny what Jesus accomplished long ago. You are wrong.
Read my post #23 and learn about how Jesus fulfilled Daniel 9:24.
The seven years of the 70th week are in Revelation 12:6 (1260 days) + Revelation 12:14 (the time, times, half time).
Because those 7 years in Revelation 12 are still unfulfilled, the correct interpretation of the messiah arriving and being cutoff - is that Jesus arrived as the messiah in John 12:12-15 and four days later was cutoff.
You have made a misunderstanding - and cannot account for why the 7 years are in Revelation 12 still unfulfilled.
All 15 end times time frames have to be reconciled. You have not done that yet.
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
There is no 7 years in Revelation 12 that have anything to do with the 70th week. You could not possibly be more off base if you tried.
Read my post #23 and learn about how Jesus fulfilled Daniel 9:24.
Your understanding to seal up the vision and prophecy is incorrect.
That will not be fulfilled until the day that Jesus returns. The Jews have yet to accept Jesus as their king of Israel messiah. Jerusalem will not see Jesus again until they do and say "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord" - Matthew 23:39.
The prophecies regarding the end times time frames are on this diagram. None of them have been fulfilled.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Not really. That 2300 days was actually a 'separate' period given. Daniel 8 shows the end of that 2300 days involves the future cleansing of Christ's Millennial sanctuary.
Dan 8:11-14
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
That is about the "little horn" mentioned in the Dan.8:9 verse, the same "little horn" of Dan.7 because both are involved in that tribulation time taking the daily sacrifice away and placing the abomination of desolation idol.
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
The saint's question above has these parts: the whole 2300 days covers...
1. how long will be the prophecy about the daily sacrifice, AND...
2. the transgression of desolation, which is about the placing of the abomination of desolation, AND...
3. when the sanctuary (3rd temple) and Jerusalem is tread under foot by the Gentiles (per Rev.11).
The daily sacrifice is taken away at the mid point of the Daniel 9:27 "one week", which means 1260 days into that "one week". This means the daily sacrifice (and thus the re-established old covenant worship) has to have already been going on prior to that mid point of the "one week". But that still does not reveal where to place the 2300 days given in the next 14th verse.
The transgression of desolation is the placing of the "abomination of desolation" IDOL at the future 3rd temple in Jerusalem which today's Jews there already have the materials ready to build it. That's to happen at the mid point of the "one week."
Per Rev.11, the Gentiles will be given to tread that future temple and the city (Jerusalem) for 42 months, which is equal to the latter 1260 days of the Daniel 9:27 symbolic "one week" (7 years). That will be "great tribulation" timing within the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe Period. The end of that 42 months, or latter 1260 days ends with the 7th Trumpet which is when Lord Jesus returns, thus ending the whole Daniel 9:27 "one week".
That means then, that the very 'end' of the 2300 day period ends with the day of Christ's future 2nd coming on the "day of the Lord". That also means at the very end of the whole "one week" (7 years) period is where we can place the 'end' of the 2300 days:
14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
KJV
That 14th verse confirms the 'end' of the whole 2300 days coincides with the cleansing of the sanctuary, meaning Christ's future Millennial sanctuary that He will build per Zechariah 6 by the "BRANCH" prophecy. That means immediately after the "great tribulation" has ended on the 7th Trumpet. That is the point where the end of the 2300 days period can be set.
[......................................Daniel 9:27 "one week" (7 years)...........................]2nd Coming
[............................................................2520 days..................................................]
[...................1260 days.......................]AOD[...............1260 days....................]
[...................................................................][............"great tribulation"............]
[......220 days....][..............................2300days.................................................]Cleansing
[.....220 days.....][.......1040 days.........][.....................1260 days..................]
OR....
[........1040 days...........][..220 days.....][....................1260 days....................]
The 2300 days minus the total of 2520 days for the whole period leaves a period of 220 days at the beginning. Then 220 days minus the first 1260 day period leaves 1040 days.
We know before the "abomination of desolation" can take place, the Jews must first build their next temple in Jerusalem, and animal sacrificial worship by the old covenant re-restablished with it. All that must be in place and going on before that ending of the daily sacrifice and placing of the abomination idol can happen.
The temple has to built first, then the daily sacrifice established, in that order. The daily sacrifice is included at the start of that 2300 days period per the Dan.8:13 verse, but it does not tell us when those sacrifices will begin again. So those 220 days & 1040 days could be swapped, like with the 1040 days representing the 3rd temple build, and the 220 days for temple worship with sacrifices. You decide. But the placement of the rest above it is solid per the Daniel Scripture.
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correct.
correct
incorrect. The AOD will be setup 1335 days before Jesus's 2nd coming. The text of Daniel 9:27 does not say mid point, but in the midst of, i.e. in the middle part of the seven years.
incorrect. The great tribulation will be 1335 days long.
correct.
incorrect. The temple with its brazen altar to be built will initially be built to minimum dimensions - in the Jews zeal to get the animal sacrifices going as quickly as possible.
Davy, overall you are correct. But the transgression of desolation precedes the abomination of desolation.
1. transgression of desolation - an act by the Antichrist to sit in the temple, claiming to have achieved God-hood.
2. abomination of desolation - a statue image of the beast-king (the Antichrist person) placed on the temple mount.
ewq1938
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Not according to anything in the NT. Christ said it was going to be shortened, and Rev speaks of it lasting 42 months.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Nah... you are reading that Daniel 12 Scripture wrong. YOU CANNOT ISOLATE DAN.12:11-12 FROM THE OTHER DANIEL WITNESSES ABOUT THE TAKING AWAY OF THE DAILY SACRIFICE AND PLACING THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION and ASSOCIATED TIME GIVEN WITH IT IN OTHER BIBLE SCRIPTURE.
Even in that very Daniel 12 Chapter you were given proof of the time of the tribulation being "for a time, times, and an half"...
Dan 12:6-7
6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, "How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?"
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by Him That liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
KJV
That "time, times, and an half" = 1260 days, or... 42 months, depending on which calendar one uses. It is the LATTER HALF of the Daniel 9:27 symbolic "one week" (7 years). That represents the time of "great tribulation".
The 1335 days of Daniel 12:12 is for AFTER the "great tribulation", as the 1290 days are also. And this is SUPPORTED ALSO BY Daniel 9:27, Daniel 8:11-14, and Daniel 11:31, and even Revelation 11, because of mention of the 1260 days, or time, times, and a half, or 42 months, in connection with the events of the coming future "great tribulation".
But the error you have done is try to ISOLATE the Daniel 12:11-12 Scripture by itself, your even forgetting to heed the very "time, times, and an half" declaration in that same Chapter!
I did not give ANY dimensions for the Jew's future 3rd temple to be built at the end of this present world. So don't go ABUSING THAT WORD INCORRECT when it is YOU that stands CORRECTED.
Davy
Well-Known Member
You don't have a clue as to whether I'm correct or not, because you SKIP over Bible Scripture that reveals to you the tribulation is to be the latter half of Daniel's symbolic "one week", which the whole 'week' is equal to 2520 days or 7 Hebrew calendar years of 360 days each.
The latter half of that "one week" equals 1260 days, and that is the time of the future "great tribulation" as shown with the same time that God's "two witnesses" will Witness in Jerusalem at the end for 1260 days, and the "dragon" will be in power with the lunar reckoning of that same time, which is 42 months (Revelation 13:4-8 and Revelation 11).
That will happen DURING the "great tribulation" of 1260 days, which is the LATTER HALF of Daniel's "one week". The Antichrist must first place the "abomination of desolation" IDOL at the mid-point of Daniel's symbolic "one week", which means after the 1st HALF.
Yes, and I never denied that it is about an IDOL. It will be the "image of the beast" idol we are forewarned about at the end of Revelation 13.
Davy
Well-Known Member
And ewq1938 brings up a good point about Jesus saying He shortened the time of the tribulation for His elect's sake, which is written in Matthew 24.
In other words, the time of "great tribulation" is no longer going to be 1260 days, nor 42 months, and let's not even consider your false time of 1335 days which is way... out in left field because it in no way aligns with Bible Scripture.
What many do not realize is that Jesus also revealed what He shortened the great tribulation to. It is written in Revelation 9.
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
"shortened" in verse 22 does not mean reduced from 1335 days to 42 months. It means the duration of the great tribulation will be limited, otherwise, all flesh on earth will be wiped out.
There are two time frames given in Daniel 12:11-12. 1290 days and 1335 days. Both are greater than 1260 days, 42 months.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Quit trying to re-write The Bible, which is a work of blasphemy against God's written Word.
Jesus said He 'shortened' it, and that is what the Greek word means too!
NT:2856
koloboo (kol-ob-o'-o); from a derivative of the base of NT:2849; to dock, i.e. (figuratively) abridge:
KJV - shorten.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006, 2010 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
Davy
Well-Known Member
Now just what did the Daniel 12:7 verse say about the "for a time, times, and an half" after the question of how long til the end of these things be?
Dan 12:6-7
6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, "How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?"
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by Him That liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
KJV
That phrase in green above is directly pointing to the time of "great tribulation". That is when both the Book of Daniel and Book of Revelation describe the war against the saints at the end of this world.
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