Equal to Christ!

[Matthias]

if the apostles did not believe in the trinity, then the trinity is heresy! Acts 2:42 Jude 1:3

Father Fortman.

“If we take the New Testament writers together they tell us there is only one God, the creator and lord of the universe, who is the Father of Jesus.”

Pausing here to point out that he recognizes and acknowledges that the NT writers believed the one God is the Father, the Messiah’s God and their God. No one else. The Father alone. That’s Jewish monotheism, unitarian.

Continuing now with his comment from the point where I paused.

”They call Jesus the Son of God, Messiah, Lord, Savior, Word, Wisdom. They assign him the divine functions of creation, salvation, judgment. Sometimes they call Him God explicitly. They do not speak as fully and clearly of the Holy Spirit as they do the Son, but at times they coordinate Him with the Father and the Son and put Him on a level with them as far as divinity and personality are concerned. They give us in their writings a triadic ground plan and triadic formulas. They do not speak in abstract terms of nature, substance, person, relation, circumincession, mission, but they present in their own ways the ideas that are behind these words.”

Pausing again. A triadic ground plan and triadic formulas aren’t the same as trinitarian formulas. Trinitarian formulation would eventually be developed by later theologians into the doctrine of the Trinity. The NT writers aren’t using the abstract terms used in trinitarian language. Trinitarians do.

Picking up again now where I left off.

”They give us no formal or formulated doctrine of the Trinity, no explicit teaching that in one God there are three co-equal divine persons.“

Pausing to say that he’s right. The NT writers didn’t. The Catholic Church gets the credit for that.

Now comes his explanation for how the Church later became trinitarian.

“But they do give us an elemental trinitarianism, the data from which such a formal doctrine of the Triune God may be formulated.”

“Elemental trinitarianism” isn’t the doctrine of the Trinity. It’s taking statements made by the NT writers, the data, and formulating it in a way which the NT writers themselves didn’t. Doing so produced a faith, the trinitarian faith, which was not the unitarian faith of the NT writers.

 

[Matthias]

And this

Daniel 7:18
But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

Who are the saints? The holy ones who will possesses the kingdom.

Do you count yourself in their number?

Acts 9:13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:

thy saints? Saint of Jesus Christ the most high God!

Who are the holy ones / the Lord’s saints at Jerusalem whom Ananias heard about, from many, that Saul had done harm to?

 

[Matthias]

His angels? Only God has angels!

Matt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Who is “he”?

“Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?”

(Matthew 26:53, KJV)

Who is God to Jesus?

 

[Matthias]

An oldie but a goodie!

Lk 1:16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.

Jn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Behold [the Lord their God], which taketh away the sin of the world? No. The Lord their God is the Father.

Behold [the Trinity], which taketh away the the sin of the word? No. The Lord their God is the Father.

Behold [the second person of the Trinity], which taketh away the sin of the world? No. The Lord their God is the Father.

Behold [the Father], which taketh away the sin of the world? No. John the Baptist isn’t talking about the Lord their God. He’s talking about Jesus of Nazareth.

Behold [Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah, the Son of the living God], which taketh away the sin of the world? Yes.

Jn 1:30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.

John brought them to Jesus

That’s right. I note just in passing that if we’re looking for a verse which identifies Jesus as a man, this is one of many that we could point to.

Jesus is the Lord their God!

No. The Lord their God is the Father.

“… no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”

(John 14:6, KJV)

John the Baptist is a Jew. Jesus is a Jew. The children of Israel are Jews. This is an event in Jewish history. This is a Jewish story.

None of the people in the story have any knowledge about, or awareness of, the Trinity. Their God is the Father.

 

[Matthias]

Lk 1:68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; …

The Lord God of Israel is the Messiah’s God.

”1. The one God. (a) theos is the most frequent designation of God in the NT. Belief in the one, only and unique God (Matt. 23:9; Rom. 3:30; 1 Cor. 8:4,6; Gal. 3:20; 1 Tim. 2:5; Jas. 2:19) is an established part of Christian tradition. Jesus himself made the fundamental confession of Jud. his own and expressly quoted the Shema (Deut. 6:4-5; see Mk. 12:29-30; cf. Matt. 22:37; Lk. 10:27). This guaranteed continuity between the old and the new covenants. The God whom Christians worship is the God of the fathers (Acts 3:13; 5:30; 22:14), the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Acts 3:13; 7:32; cf. Matt. 22:32; Mk. 12:26; Lk. 20:37), the God of Israel (Matt. 15:31; Lk. 1:68; Acts 13:17), and the God of Jesus Christ (2 Cor. 1:3; Eph. 1:3; 1Pet. 1:3).”

(New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Abridged Edition, p. 244)

…for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

Jesus visited and redeemed the people, Jesus is the horn of salvation!

That’s right.

Jesus is eternal God!

Jesus is the Son of the eternal / living God.

“But these are written, that ye might believe Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”

(John 20:31, KJV)

But these are written, that ye might believe Jesus is the Christ, [the Trinity]? No.

But these are written, that ye might believe Jesus is the Christ, [the second person of the Trinity]? No. That’s reading post-biblical trinitarian theology into the text.

But these are written, that ye might believe Jesus is the Christ, [the eternal God]? No. In trinitarianism, the eternal God is the Trinity, three persons, not one person. In Jewish monotheism, the eternal God is the Father. John, himself a Jewish monotheist, isn’t talking about the Father. He’s talking about Jesus of Nazareth.

But these are written, that ye might believe Jesus is the Christ, [the Son of the eternal / living God]? Yes.

But these are written, that ye might believe Jesus is the Christ, [the Son of the Father]? Yes.

P.S.

I’d like to hear what you think about Nehemiah 9:27.

“Therefore thou deliveredst them into the hand of their enemies, who vexed them: and in the time of their trouble, when they cried unto thee, thou heardest them from heaven; and according to thy manifold mercies thou gavest them saviours, who saved them out of the hand of their enemies.” (KJV)

 

[theefaith]

Who is God?

You’ve made it crystal clear that you believe God is the Trinity.

In your eyes, I’m a heretic.

“Treason is punishable by death and heresy is treason against God”

Treason is punishable by death and heresy is treason against [the Trinity]

Have I made it crystal clear to you that I believe God is the Father and none other? If not, I’d like to take the opportunity to do that now. God isn’t the Trinity. God is the Father.

“Treason is punishable by death and heresy is treason against God”

Treason is punishable by death and heresy is treason against [the Father]

I want you to come away with two things from this:

1. In my eyes, you’re a heretic.
2. I’m not calling upon the state to imprison, fine, or execute you.

well I’m not either
The question is in a Christian kingdom would it be just? Yes!

 

[Matthias]

well I’m not either

I’m glad to hear that.

The question is in a Christian kingdom would it be just? Yes!

If we were living back in the days of the Inquisition, would you have?

We both live in the United States of America. If the United States of America was today a Christian kingdom, would you?

 

[theefaith]

“What is a heretic? The Greek word from which the English terms ‘heresy’ and ‘heretic’ are derived simply means an ‘act of choice’ or an ‘attachment.’ For a time, hairesis merely meant ‘party’ or ‘sect’ (from the Latin verb ‘to cut’) and did not imply any disparagement.”

(Harold O.J. Brown, Heresies: Heresy And Orthodoxy In The History Of The Church, p.1)

This is how I use the term “heretic”.

Dr. Brown continues,

“At an early date in the history of Christianity heresy became almost the worst offense in which a Christian could become involved; in the Middle Ages, it became a capital crime.”

(Ibid.)

Christianity gone wrong, I suggest.

treason against God but that’s a hardend unrepentant man who publicly teaches error contrary to the divinely revealed truth!

youre just caught up in a rigid sect of fundamentalists who hold to doctrines of other religions

 

[amigo de christo]

well I’m not either
The question is in a Christian kingdom would it be just? Yes!

The CC has a stronghold on you my friend . cause this is exact mindset it had during its great persecutions against many .
IT TOO believed it was the christain kingdom and it thus had the right to put men to death .
You are very close to the kingdom of the beast as we speak . JESUS is the one who said GOD ALONE
is the only one who has the right to put any to death . NOT me , not you , not popes or etc .
KEEP THAT IN MIND . cause soon as one the world will cry AWAY with these fundamentals and many will cheer in that day and in that hour
as many true lambs are wisked away out of society , seen as dangerous and put to death .
YOUR CHURCH is about to lead in this ALL over again just as it did throughout the ages . FLEE IT NOW .
And come to the true saving knowledge of Christ Jesus . I Do not write this cause i fear man . NO
I write this because i fear for YOUR SOUL . Hurry thee faith .

 

[amigo de christo]

The new world order religoin believes itself to be the religoin of GOD and the only religoin worth following .
It has and is bringing all religoins together as one under a common banner .
Soon the time of its prolesytizing will end and then will come its teeth against all who conformed not to its all inclusive god .
This is FOR REAL and its happening as we speak . ROME leads in it along with many prostestant leaders
as well as jews , other religoins all becoming one in the name of a false love for a false unity for a peace and safety
THAT IT WILL NEVER have . For on the day of the LORD it gets plundered under foot .
But till then its on a mission to unite and kill . UNITE ALL as one and KILL those who refuse . ITS COMING .

 

[theefaith]

It will continue to happen as long as there are people who disagree on the answer to the question. A day is coming when everyone will know the answer to the question.

Trinitarianism offers an answer. So do other theologies.

I don’t know if you read or remember my Sunday School joke comment but the answer is Jesus. He has the correct answer to the question.



I’m either correct or incorrect. The Athanasian creed doesn’t give partial credit.



Wouldn’t that rule out then even the suggestion that Jews living in those days and under the mosaic covenant weren’t trinitarian?

Moses the trinitarian? Moses the Roman Catholic? I don’t think so. Catholic scholarship is better than that.



Jesus said that the scribes and the Pharisees put themselves on the seat of Moses.

I don’t see where they put themselves there, they had jurisdictional authority of the kingdom, but it taken from them Matt 21:43 and given to Peter and the apostles Matt 16:18-19 18:18


Prophecy of the new covenant and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. (The new covenant church) Jn 15:1-5

Dan 2: 44 And in the days of these kings (Roman Caesars) shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Isaiah 2:2
And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

Micah 4:1
But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

Daniel 7:18
But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

Lk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Lk 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;

Matthew 5:14
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

Matt 21:43 taken from Israel given to Peter and the apostles Matt 16:18-19 18:18 Jn 20:21 eph 2:20


1 Peter 4:11
If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Jude 1:8
Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

Jude 1:25
To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

 

[Matthias]

treason against God but that’s a hardend unrepentant man who publicly teaches error contrary to the divinely revealed truth!

youre just caught up in a rigid sect of fundamentalists who hold to doctrines of other religions

What would it take to convince you that I’ve committed treason against the Trinity?

 

[theefaith]

The trinitarian perspective, which, again, can be traced in Church history to post-biblical Council, not to scripture.

It is so only on the authority of the Catholic Church.

which has the apostolic tradition the teaching authority of Christ until he returns Matt 28:19 with the Holy Ghost Jn 16:13 same mission power and authority as Christ Jn 20:21

 

[Matthias]

I don’t see where they put themselves there …

“saying, ‘The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses;’”

(Matthew 23:2, NASB)

…they had jurisdictional authority of the kingdom, but it taken from them Matt 21:43 and given to Peter and the apostles Matt 16:18-19 18:18

Prophecy of the new covenant and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. (The new covenant church) Jn 15:1-5

Dan 2: 44 And in the days of these kings (Roman Caesars) shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

You’ve inserted an interpretation in Daniel 2:44.

Isaiah 2:2
And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

Micah 4:1
But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

Daniel 7:18
But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

Lk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Lk 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;

Matthew 5:14
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

Matt 21:43 taken from Israel given to Peter and the apostles Matt 16:18-19 18:18 Jn 20:21 eph 2:20


1 Peter 4:11
If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Jude 1:8
Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

Jude 1:25
To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

 

[Matthias]

which has the apostolic tradition the teaching authority of Christ until he returns Matt 28:19 with the Holy Ghost Jn 16:13 same mission power and authority as Christ Jn 20:21

That’s the disputed claim of the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[theefaith]

Is Jesus Christ a pope? No.

(yes cos Christ is the father of the new covenant, the founder and head of the church, pope means father!)

Do you agree or disagree with that? (I assume you agree. My Catholic relatives (my wife’s side of the family) identify Peter as the first pope.)

Is the pope considered an apostle by Roman Catholics? Yes.

When a pope dies, there is a process in-place to identify his successor. The deceased pope / apostle is succeeded by another pope / apostle. A dead pope / apostle is succeeded by a living a living pope / apostle.

Jesus Christ was alive. Jesus Christ was dead. Jesus Christ was made alive again via resurrection from the dead.

I don’t see the apostles as successors of Jesus Christ.

I also don’t see Peter as a pope. I understand that you do.

Authority of the Apostles!

What authority does Christ have?
What power does Christ have?
What mission / ministry does Christ have?

Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission!

Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!

John 17:18
As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

The apostles are Christ’s successors!
They have authority to send others as well until Christ returns in glory!

apostle means one who is sent!

Therefore the apostles have authority to send more apostles or successors!


Apostolic succession!

The nations still need to be taught, disciples still need to be baptized and the church the new covenant kingdom of christ still needs to be governed!

Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

Christ is an apostle, and has authority to send other apostles, the apostles also have this authority, so the apostles continue down thru the centuries as Christ promised! Matt 28:19-20

Keys of authority! And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18 matt 28:19 Isa 22:21-22

Moral authority:
(Teaching)
Necessity of being taught by Christ:
Two edge sword: defining truth and condemning errors, and Interpreting scripture.

Jurisdictional authority:
(Governing / administering)
Necessity of Peter and the apostles and their successors to govern the holy church.

Spiritual authority:
(Life of Grace)
Sanctifying thru the mass and Sacraments for the forgiveness of sin.


The apostles teaching is Christ’s teaching, Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4

Christian rule of faith is not the Bible alone! But the doctrine of the apostles! Acts 2:42

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

in a sense Abraham Moses etc. we’re all catholic, cos the new covenant is universal se below

 

[theefaith]

Major covenants!

God initiated each covenant and the mediator always remains on earth mediating the covenant except for Christ who made Peter His personal representative and vicar! (Matt 16:18)

Adam
(Marriage covenant)

Noah
(Family covenant)

Abraham
(Tribal covenant)

Moses:
(National covenant)

Jesus Christ:
(Universal covenant)

New and eternal covenant founded by Jesus Christ! Matt 16:18

Universal (Catholic)
World universal

Lk 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. ( catholic universal) All men!

Lk 2:31 prepared before the face of all (catholic) people. All men!

Jn 1:29 lamb of God who takes way the sins of the world. All men!

Jn 3:16 for God so loved the world

1 Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. All men!

Lk 2: 10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. All men!

11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. (All people universal) All men!

1 Tim 2:5 one mediator

Jn 10:16 One new covenant church

Only Jesus Christ has authority to found the church on Peter and the apostles! Matt 16:18-19 Matt 18:18
Jn 20:21 eph 2:20

All others are heretical sects the tradition of men!

Christ is king and established a kingdom!

Obedience to the apostles who have the jurisdictional authority to govern the church and administer the kingdom is obedience to Christ!

 

[theefaith]

Jesus, too, is a servant of the most high God; the suffering servant whom Isaiah prophesied about.

yes in his human nature!
But are these servants Of Christ, did not Christ call Paul?

 

[Matthias]

Authority of the Apostles!

What authority does Christ have?
What power does Christ have?
What mission / ministry does Christ have?

Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission!

Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!

John 17:18
As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

The apostles are Christ’s successors!
They have authority to send others as well until Christ returns in glory!

apostle means one who is sent!

Therefore the apostles have authority to send more apostles or successors!


Apostolic succession!

The nations still need to be taught, disciples still need to be baptized and the church the new covenant kingdom of christ still needs to be governed!

Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

Christ is an apostle, and has authority to send other apostles, the apostles also have this authority, so the apostles continue down thru the centuries as Christ promised! Matt 28:19-20

Keys of authority! And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18 matt 28:19 Isa 22:21-22

Moral authority:
(Teaching)
Necessity of being taught by Christ:
Two edge sword: defining truth and condemning errors, and Interpreting scripture.

Jurisdictional authority:
(Governing / administering)
Necessity of Peter and the apostles and their successors to govern the holy church.

Spiritual authority:
(Life of Grace)
Sanctifying thru the mass and Sacraments for the forgiveness of sin.


The apostles teaching is Christ’s teaching, Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4

Christian rule of faith is not the Bible alone! But the doctrine of the apostles! Acts 2:42

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

in a sense Abraham Moses etc. we’re all catholic, cos the new covenant is universal se below

This all goes back to the Roman Catholic doctrine of apostolic succession. Right?

 

[Matthias]

yes in his human nature!

The man served his God.

Who is his God? We’ve agreed many times that his God is the Father.

But are these servants Of Christ, did not Christ call Paul?

Yes. Servants of Christ are serving God.