Eternal Security- What does the Bible say?

[mark s]

Jesus told me He would never leave me or forsake me. Will He?

In Hebrews, it says I have been perfected forever. Have I?

In Colossians, it says I will appear with Him in glory. John wrote that when I see Him, I will be like Him.

Will I?

 

[Episkopos]

Our beliefs do not make us secure...we believe we're secure therefore we are???

Rather we are secure when we are walking in the Spirit. Then we are walking in true holiness without sin. We can be assured that when Christ is living through us that we are assured of an abundant entrance into life in the next age.....since we are already walking in that abundant life in this present age.

 

[mark s]

Our beliefs do not make us secure...we believe we're secure therefore we are???

Rather we are secure when we are walking in the Spirit. Then we are walking in true holiness without sin. We can be assured that when Christ is living through us that we are assured of an abundant entrance into life in the next age.....since we are already walking in that abundant life in this present age.

Can you be saved while not "walking in the Spirit"?

Can you "walk in the Spirit" on Monday, then not "walk in the Spirit" on Tuesday? And if this is what you do, are you saved on Monday, then not saved on Tuesday?

By "saved" I mean indwelt by the Holy Spirit as a recipient of eternal life, we could also say "born again".

 

[Episkopos]

Jesus told me He would never leave me or forsake me. Will He?

In Hebrews, it says I have been perfected forever. Have I?

In Colossians, it says I will appear with Him in glory. John wrote that when I see Him, I will be like Him.

Will I?

If you read it it must apply to you! After all we are what we read! ;)

 

[mark s]

Our beliefs do not make us secure...we believe we're secure therefore we are???

Not belief in ourself - rather, belief in Jesus. Having believed, we've received. Having received, we are born again as God's children, His forever. Do you deny this?

Rather we are secure when we are walking in the Spirit. Then we are walking in true holiness without sin. We can be assured that when Christ is living through us that we are assured of an abundant entrance into life in the next age.....since we are already walking in that abundant life in this present age.

This is performance. Your reliance is upon your works, not faith. Do you deny this?

If you read it it must apply to you! After all we are what we read! ;)

Yet another dodge. You don't seem to care to answer my questions, do you?

 

[Episkopos]

Can you be saved while not "walking in the Spirit"?

Can you "walk in the Spirit" on Monday, then not "walk in the Spirit" on Tuesday? And if this is what you do, are you saved on Monday, then not saved on Tuesday?

By "saved" I mean indwelt by the Holy Spirit as a recipient of eternal life, we could also say "born again".

You are confusing being saved with an eternal security. You confuse eternal life with being immortal.

It would be better for most Christians to not claim to be saved and just do the best they can in their own strength...since that is what they are really doing anyway.

Salvation comes from pleasing God and obeying His commandments.

When we walk in the Spirit we are walking in HIS salvation...not our own. So we can experience this salvation right now. This in no way guarantees that we can own God's salvation.

If the salvation were ours then we would have our own righteousness. Do you see that?

Not belief in ourself - rather, belief in Jesus. Having believed, we've received. Having received, we are born again as God's children, His forever. Do you deny this?

This is unreal. We are born again through an actual experience of intimacy with God. Do you deny this?

This is performance. Your reliance is upon your works, not faith. Do you deny this?

We will all be judged by our works...do you deny this?

Yet another dodge. You don't seem to care to answer my questions, do you?

Quit talking from a silly religious conditioning and talk like a real person and I'll be able to answer you in a way you can relate to.

 

[RichardBurger]

1. It would be better for most Christians to not claim to be saved and just do the best they can in their own strength...since that is what they are really doing anyway.

2. Salvation comes from pleasing God and obeying His commandments.

3. When we walk in the Spirit we are walking in HIS salvation...not our own. So we can experience this salvation right now. This in no way guarantees that we can own God's salvation.

4. If the salvation were ours then we would have our own righteousness. Do you see that?

5. We will all be judged by our works...do you deny this?

1. So you are saying we should just trust that we are doing our best to not sin. -- Where is belief, faith, trust, and confidence in the work of Jesus on the cross; trust in His promise of salavtion by faith in Him?

2. Salvation comes by faith in the promises of God; salvation by faith in the work of God.

3. So you don't think God will honor His promises in Christ's work on the cross.

4. So you do not believe we are made righteous by our believing God's promises just as Abraham was. You do not believe we have God's imputed righteousness.

5. We are no longer judged by our works of law abiding. We are judged as to whether we believe God's message sent to us, by Jesus, thru the gospel of grace as was given to Paul.

You do not give Jesus any credit (glory) in all that He suffered on your behalf.

 

[Axehead]

Jesus told me He would never leave me or forsake me. Will He?

In Hebrews, it says I have been perfected forever. Have I?

In Colossians, it says I will appear with Him in glory. John wrote that when I see Him, I will be like Him.

Will I?

That is called Assurance. Assurance is the subjective awareness and confidence of spiritual identification with Jesus Christ. Assurance has everything to do with abiding in Christ and nothing to do with Bible knowledge.Here are some other scriptures.

Rom. 8:16 - "the Spirit bears witness with our spirit"
II Tim. 1:12 - "I know whom I have believed and am convinced..."
Heb. 10:22 - "draw near in full assurance of faith"
I Jn 5:13,14 - "you may know that you have eternal life...confidence"

The Christian life is the ongoing, dynamic, life of Christ in us and as we abide in Him (righteous works), as we are COMMANDED to do, then we have assurance. How can you have assurance if you stop abiding in Him, unless you believe a man-made doctrine that gives you false security thinking it is true security. The man in Matthew 7 who confidently told the Lord all the wonderful things that he did in Jesus' name was abiding in FALSE SECURITY and was told by the Lord, "I don't know you"!

You see Mark, we don't own salvation or righteousness or holiness as a commodity. Those attributes are only derived from Christ as you abide in Christ. These things are not given to you apart from Christ. When you have Christ you have everything.

Do you know what it means to "put on the Lord Jesus Christ and make no provision for the flesh"? This is a commandment and a righteous work.

You can't "get saved", and treat it like you got your "ticket punched" and now you just go about your life doing what YOU THINK you are supposed to do because you have received Bible knowledge. Many don't understand the walk of the Spirit and the dynamic life of Christ within them and so they spend their life with this attitude: "Ok, Lord - I understand how it is done, so I will take it from here". This attitude characterizes most of the visible Church, today. This is what the man in Matthew 7 did (Lord, I'll take it from here).

What was the Lord's attitude towards His Father?

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Jesus told us that, "Without Him we can do nothing". He can say that, because He lived it.

What did the religionists of Jesus day, do? Oh, they surely did take pride in the fact that their father was Abraham, but they did not abide in God. He told the Jews that, "they did not have His Father's word abiding in them and that they search the Scriptures (like many do today) thinking they have eternal life." And here is the important part: "And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life."

The Jews did not receive Him.
John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not:

Remember, as I stated before, we have an active role in being receptive to God's continuing preserving grace.

Rom. 8:25 - "with perseverance we wait eagerly for it"
I Cor. 15:2 - "you are saved, if you hold fast the word preached..."
Col. 1:23 - "present you before Him...if you continue in the faith"
II Tim. 2:12 - "if we endure, we shall also reign with Him"

Axehead

 

[mark s]

OK, let's focus on just one at a time . . .

Hebrews says He will never leave me nor forsake me. OK, is He speaking to me? I would say that as a child of God, yes, He is. You may dispute that I am a child of God, but for the sake of the debate, let's say that I am.

So He speaks to me. He said He will never leave nor forsake me. Will He?

This is not about "assurance". This is not about "Bible knowledge". This is Jesus' promise. Will He keep it?

You speak of "owning salvation as a commodity", as if that is what I think or say.

So let me ask you . . . Do you "own humanity as a commodity"?

That's not what we're talking about, is it?

But if you were born human, you simply are human. And you don't by some act of your will, cease to be human, do you?

"Ok, Lord - I understand how it is done, so I will take it from here".

Do you honestly think this is what I am saying???

 

[Axehead]

OK, let's focus on just one at a time . . .

Hebrews says He will never leave me nor forsake me. OK, is He speaking to me? I would say that as a child of God, yes, He is. You may dispute that I am a child of God, but for the sake of the debate, let's say that I am.

So He speaks to me. He said He will never leave nor forsake me. Will He?

This is not about "assurance". This is not about "Bible knowledge". This is Jesus' promise. Will He keep it?

You speak of "owning salvation as a commodity", as if that is what I think or say.

So let me ask you . . . Do you "own humanity as a commodity"?

That's not what we're talking about, is it?

But if you were born human, you simply are human. And you don't by some act of your will, cease to be human, do you?



Do you honestly think this is what I am saying???

God wants us to know that His commitment to us is solid. The other side of the coin is our commitment and faithfulness to Him.

He won't leave us, but will we leave Him or endure till the end? Will we harden our heart and turn away from Him? Many have.

Axehead

 

[RichardBurger]

God wants us to know that His commitment to us is solid. The other side of the coin is our commitment and faithfulness to Him.

He won't leave us, but will we leave Him or endure till the end? Will we harden our heart and turn away from Him? Many have.

Axehead

Many have is right! And why wouldn't they? They have been told that if they become a Christian they will stop sinning in the flesh and when they see into their hearts they realize that they still sin. Therefore they see Christianity as a lie.

The children of God still live in sinful flesh and the sinful flesh can not be sinless. Just as Paul said in Romans 7:25
25 I thank God — through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
NKJV

Modern Christainity has become a religion of the self-righteous and many see it as being that way. They are not being told that to be a real Christain they must trust in what Jesus has already done to obtain salvation; that a true Christian is not made by the works of man. But you won't hear this in most all Christian venues.

 

[Episkopos]

Many have is right! And why wouldn't they? They have been told that if they become a Christian they will stop sinning in the flesh and when they see into their hearts they realize that they still sin. Therefore they see Christianity as a lie.

The children of God still live in sinful flesh and the sinful flesh can not be sinless. Just as Paul said in Romans 7:25
25 I thank God — through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
NKJV

Modern Christainity has become a religion of the self-righteous and many see it as being that way. They are not being told that to be a real Christain they must trust in what Jesus has already done to obtain salvation; that a true Christian is not made by the works of man. But you won't hear this in most all Christian venues.

The gnostic teaching of us not being responsible for the actions we do with the body suggests that the body obeys itself and cannot be ever controlled. When we are babies the body does what the body does...but that is BEFORE potty training. Imagine a baby who suddenly started a religious movement based on the inability of controlling bodily functions and you get the spiritual equivalent of gnosticism.

What men cannot due due the weakness of the flesh...God empowers them to do through grace. His power is made perfect in our weakness. It is no longer we who are trying to invent the power (as gnostics preach we do due to unbelief) rather God enables us to walk in His presence so that we can walk just like Jesus did in HIS flesh.

 

[RichardBurger]

The gnostic teaching of us not being responsible for the actions we do with the body suggests that the body obeys itself and cannot be ever controlled.

Romans 7:25
25 I thank God — through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
NKJV

 

[Axehead]

Romans 7:25
25 I thank God — through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
NKJV

Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

The problem with today's Gospel is there is no message of the Cross, anymore. Just get your "ticket punched" and wait for heaven.

Axehead

 

[williemac]

Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

I find it fascinating that this passage is prior to Rom.7, where Paul shares that it is actually the law that stirs up sinful desires in one's heart.

The problem with today's Gospel is there is no message of the Cross, anymore. Just get your "ticket punched" and wait for heaven.

That may be the case in some people's sheltered world, but it is not true as an absolute statement. Not even close.

 

[Episkopos]

We must endure to the to be saved in an eternal sense. But we can be saved in our daily situations through faith and rejoicing in God. There are the daily battles and then there is the war. There sems to be the confusion that winning one battle means the war is over.

 

[RichardBurger]

We must endure to the to be saved in an eternal sense. But we can be saved in our daily situations through faith and rejoicing in God. There are the daily battles and then there is the war. There sems to be the confusion that winning one battle means the war is over.

The children of God are already saved by the work of God on the cross; but this only applies those that actually believe it. Enduring to the end is to resist the ideas of the religious that a person must work for salvation. The requirement for salvation has already been paid for, by God, on the cross for those that will trust in God.

 

[Axehead]

I find it fascinating that this passage is prior to Rom.7, where Paul shares that it is actually the law that stirs up sinful desires in one's heart.

We have a conflict between the flesh and the Law. Flesh will not come under subjection to the Law of God.

Is the Law sin? Romans 7:7.

No, the flaw is not in the Law, but in the sinful creature who lives under it. The Law is like its Giver, "holy and righteous and good," vs 12.

One comes to know sin through the Law, vs 7. (You shall not covet).

Sin comes in through desires of the flesh and refusing to deny oneself is to allow lust to take over. REFUSAL TO BE LIMITED IN ONE'S DESIRES IS THE VERY BASIS OF EVIL.

[quote name='williemac' timestamp='1341701337' post='155748']
That may be the case in some people's sheltered world, but it is not true as an absolute statement. Not even close.
[/quote]

Yes, I should have said, "one of the false Gospels preached, today.

Axehead

 

[Episkopos]

The children of God are already saved by the work of God on the cross; but this only applies those that actually believe it. Enduring to the end is to resist the ideas of the religious that a person must work for salvation. The requirement for salvation has already been paid for, by God, on the cross for those that will trust in God.

Lip service and mental assent have nothing at all to do with Christianity. We are saved by believing in Christ and living through His grace.

 

[mark s]

Lip service and mental assent have nothing at all to do with Christianity. We are saved by believing in Christ and living through His grace.

Faith and . . . you!