Eternal Security

[Wrigley]

This is the biggest stumbling block for the unsaved. How can eternal life be the free gift of God's grace to the one who believes on Christ, when there are no free lunches on earth? But that is the glory of God's grace. And the price was paid at Calvary.

What I find sad is that it is preached that place your faith in Jesus and you will be saved. People do that then they are taught to go through hoops to maintain it.

The church brings in sinners then condemns them when they sin whilst being in the church.

It's about getting people through the front door yet leaving the back door open.

A simple example being. A person came to our church, they had been to another and they smoked.
They came to Jesus, then a few months later were told "If you really love Jesus then you would not smoke"

It really set them back.

 

[Wrigley]

Exactly. Works which are metaphorically wood, hay, and stubble will be burned up. Works which are gold, silver, and precious stones will be rewarded. But salvation is NOT a reward but a GIFT.

Amen and another Amen.

 

[TheHolyBookEnds]

Eternal security is real. It's what makes Christianity alive!...

Rollo Tamasi (I assume a name that came from the movie L. A. Confidential, a fictional character of an evil mastermind? why choose this name, character?), may I ask you some questions in regards your OP, and will you spend some time with me on them?

 

[GodsGrace]

Rollo Tamasi (I assume a name that came from the movie L. A. Confidential, a fictional character of an evil mastermind? why choose this name, character?), may I ask you some questions in regards your OP, and will you spend some time with me on them?

Whoa! Like your avatar.
Welcome to the forum.

 

[Episkopos]

Pleased to meet you.

Are you saying that the above saves us?

Or are you saying that the above is evidence of genuine saving faith?

God judges and Jesus saves. But although Jesus died for the sins of the whole world not everyone will be saved. So then it isn't for us to determine who is saved or not at this point. I think it is very human to want to figure these things out and take judgment away from God. But judgment rests with God alone.

BTW pleased to meet you likewise.

 

[Episkopos]

People like to make salvation difficult.
It makes them think their good works will save them.
People say "nothing is free", even from God.
Everything is conditional.
You are so all knowing, you are putting God in a box, with rules.
None of your replies answer the OP.
You are out of line.

Salvation is squarely in the hands of God. What people actually like to do is to take judgment out of God's hands and put things like salvation into their own hands. It makes it "simple" as you say.

 

[Episkopos]

What people should be asking is not whether there is such a thing as eternal security...but WHERE this security is to be found.

When we walk in the Spirit we are walking in eternal life in a place that will soon be coming to overtake the world. We should should be seeking the kingdom of God.

 

[Wrigley]

God judges and Jesus saves. But although Jesus died for the si ns of the whole world not everyone will be saved. So then it isn't for us to determine who is saved or not at this point. I think it is very human to want to figure these things out and take judgment away from God. But judgment rests with God alone.

BTW pleased to meet you likewise.

What about

Matthew 25:31-33

The Son of Man Will Judge the Nations
31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.

Who is the Son of Man

 

[Episkopos]

What about

Matthew 25:31-33

The Son of Man Will Judge the Nations
31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.

Who is the Son of Man

Jesus the Son of the living God.

 

[Wrigley]

What people should be asking is not whether there is such a thing as eternal security...but WHERE this security is to be found.

When we walk in the Spirit we are walking in eternal life in a place that will soon be coming to overtake the world. We should should be seeking the kingdom of God.

I think we can reverse this.

Is there such a thing as ES, if so why so?
If it's by genuine faith in Jesus, forgiveness of sins, reconciliation to the Father then what?

That's where discipleship must come in.

What it actually means to walk the walk, be a follower of Jesus, a disciple.

 

[Episkopos]

Depends on what you mean by conditional. If the conditions are obedience to the Gospel, then that is perfectly valid.

However, if it means conditional upon the efforts of those who are saved, that is invalid. And in order to properly understand this, we need to understand the meaning of being justified by grace through faith, and receiving eternal life, and the imputed righteousness of Christ, as A GIFT OF GOD'S GRACE.

We can do nothing to earn our salvation or to retain our salvation. However, those who are saved are called (1) to be holy and (2) to maintain good works, which will be judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

This kind of reasoning has led to so much confusion that we see today. It is from a human perspective...a perspective which is not found in the bible. So it has been cobbled together to make sense for people. But it is very misleading.

People who have their works burned up don't just lack rewards...they have everything taken away from them.

Look at this...

Mat. 13:12 For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.

We have to think in a kingdom way...using kingdom logic....not human logic.

So then the last thing we want is to be a castaway in outer darkness, naked and disgraced for ever. To have everything taken away from us.

In a great house there are vessels of honour AND shame.

Look at this..

2 Tim. 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

Do a study throughout the bible about nakedness and dishonour. You will find that this is not just a lack of rewards.

 

[Episkopos]

I think we can reverse this.

Is there such a thing as ES, if so why so?
If it's by genuine faith in Jesus, forgiveness of sins, reconciliation to the Father then what?

That's where discipleship must come in.

What it actually means to walk the walk, be a follower of Jesus, a disciple.

But who decides the scale? When does the miraculous gifts become raising the dead? When does a person begin to walk in the power that raised Jesus from the dead? When does a person cease from sin?

What is being taught?

Is it from an opinion...and what is from the very power and life of Jesus?

It is about scale. And truth.

Where is the discernment?

 

[TheHolyBookEnds]

Whoa! Like your avatar.
Welcome to the forum.

Phil. 2:5. combined with Eze. 1:28 and Rom. 12:2.

Thank you. Is the picture of you or child or grandchild?

 

[Wrigley]

Jesus the Son of the living God.

So Jesus will judge at the end of time?

Those saved and those not?

Sorry may be semantics but you said God judges but Jesus saves.
It seems to me a seperation of the two.

Was the world not judged when Jesus said "It is finished?

Please don't think I'm going at you or dissing you or trying to prove you wrong.

I'm enjoying talking (I'm on another site where it is savage) and I'm not a savage person.

 

[Wrigley]

But who decides the scale? When does the miraculous gifts become raising the dead? When does a person begin to walk in the power that raised Jesus from the dead? When does a person cease from sin?

What is being taught?

Is it from an opinion...and what is from the very power and life of Jesus?

It is about scale. And truth.

Where is the discernment?

A difficult one for me.

Prayed over a few dead bodies to be raised.
Never happened and felt defeated.

Don't quite get why the miracles off the NT church do not happen today.
I'm not a cessationlist

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Rollo Tamasi (I assume a name that came from the movie L. A. Confidential, a fictional character of an evil mastermind? why choose this name, character?), may I ask you some questions in regards your OP, and will you spend some time with me on them?

Think about it...
I'm here to catch the bad guys who spread false doctrine and think they can get away with it

 

[TheHolyBookEnds]

Think about it... ...

I no longer watch hollywood. It is sorcery. I know the film from my dark past already and the character you give it, is not in harmony with its message.

However, I would like to speak with you about the OP topic, and the matter you bring up of false doctrine. Are you interested in discussing these things?

 

[Episkopos]

A difficult one for me.

Prayed over a few dead bodies to be raised.
Never happened and felt defeated.

Don't quite get why the miracles off the NT church do not happen today.
I'm not a cessationlist

I see it as scale. What we claim and what is available from God are vastly different. It is only as we look for more and refuse to settle for the reduced effects of grace that more becomes possible. Grace actually brings salvation. But we seem satisfied with the notion of this and the slogan...but miss the point of this world changing power.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I no longer watch hollywood. It is sorcery. I know the film from my dark past already and the character you give it, is not in harmony with its message.

However, I would like to speak with you about the OP topic, and the matter you bring up of false doctrine. Are you interested in discussing these things?

Of course.

 

[Enoch111]

Don't quite get why the miracles off the NT church do not happen today.

The answer is found in Hebrews 2:3,4 and Acts 2:22.

How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?...Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

The Gospel was to be first preached to the Jews, then to the Samaritans and the Gentiles. The Jews needed signs to authenticate the Gospel message -- that it was God Himself who was presenting the Lord Jesus Christ to them as their Lord and Savior. Paul said that tongues are a sign to those (Jews) that believe not. Therefore both Jesus of Nazareth and the apostles were given the ability to do miracles. They were called "the signs of an apostle", and they proved that the apostles (and some of their companions such as Stephen and Philip) had the power and authority of God behind their Gospel messages.

Following the completion of the Bible the sign gifts were withdrawn, hence the words of Paul that prophecies, tongues, and supernatural knowledge would cease. The apostolic Fathers (1st & 2nd centuries) did not claim to be either apostles or prophets, nor did they claim to do miracles, so that establishes the limits of the sign gifts. Therefore signs, wonders, and miracles were for the Apostolic Age (as well as other specific times in the history of Israel, e.g. those of Moses, Elijah and Elisha).

This does not mean that God does not do miracles daily, since surely souls are saved daily in every part of the world (a miracle if you will), and many healing miracles (including raising people from the dead) occur daily all around the world. But within the churches, there are no signs, wonders, and miracles, and many of those claiming to have these gifts are simply bogus. Today it is the Gospel itself which is the power of God unto salvation for those who believe (Rom 1:16).