Eternal Security

[gadar perets]

It is quite amazing that so many Christians have failed to understand the BASIS of eternal security. And then we have the Messianics who believe that observing the 7th day sabbath makes them eternally secure.

I doubt you have ever heard a Sabbath keeper say that. I certainly never did.

 

[Stranger]

Stranger,,,there's not too much to interpret!

Here's what you said in post 548:
The believer is not under the Mosaic Law because he is dead, buried, and raised with Jesus Christ when he is born-again. Thus the law has no authority over him. He is still a sinner and has the Holy Spirit. He does not please God by now trying to keep the Law. He walks in the Spirit.

Think of a new believer reading the above.
1. He's not under the Mosaic law. (what IS the Mosaic law?!)
2. The law has no authority over him.
3. It does not please God to keep the law.

What do you think goes on in the mind of a new believer?

I believe we should encourage new Christians and older ones that God is to be obeyed and that He IS pleased when we say no to sin.

Deuteronomy 11:1
1 Love the LORD your God and keep his requirements, his decrees, his laws and his commands always.

Romans 1:5
5 Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake.

2 John 1:6
6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

Revelation 14:12
12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

From the O.T. to the N.T....
God does not change.

I would rather a new believer understand the grace of God early than being placed under a legalistic Christianity leaving them guilty and ashamed.
A new believer knows when they sin. They don't have to be told. Why do you think they came to Christ in the first place? How God receives them after they sin...that is the question you should be concerned with.

So, tell me, when you stumble and sin against God, or even if it wasn't stumbling, if you just went ahead and did it, how do you perceive the Father looking at you? When you didn't 'obey'? What is His attitude towards you?

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Does not stealing please God? Of course it does. Does stealing please God? Of course it doesn't. Any time we break a law, it displeases God and when we obey a law, it pleases God. Obeying laws is a fruit of our salvation and is accomplished through the power of the Holy Spirit as we walk in the Spirit. To break the law is to walk in the flesh.

Such is the lie. You are simply walking by law, not by the Spirit.

Are you trying to please God by not stealing in obedience to the Law? God is not pleased. You have done nothing but establish your own righteousness. That goes for every other law you try and keep to be found pleasing to Him. He is not pleased, you have established your own righteousness.

As I said, go ahead, keep all the law perfectly. God is not pleased. You have established your own righteousness.

To try and please God by keeping the law is a walk in the flesh. And it always fails. And you are left a sinner before God needing grace.

Stranger

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I do not obey an external law. I do not obey Ten Commandments written on stone. I obey Ten Commandments written on my heart and mind.

This is the basis of your error. It is not the Ten Commandments that are written on our hearts. They were written on stone, and merely based on the eternal laws of God as examples to teach and show sin. It is the Royal law that is written on our hearts - the eternal laws from before the foundation of the world. There are two. To love God with all your heart, mind, and strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself. Lucifer broke these laws and condemned a third of the angels with himself.

The New Testament laws mirror the eternal laws, and are capable of eternal life, whereas the Ten Commandments could not do anything but show SIN, and death. And because of sin, could not be kept. The NT laws are to believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and to love one another. Any reference to "commandments" in the writings of John are in direct reference to these two commandments, but have been twisted in ignorance by evil men to mean the old law of sin and death. These ignoramuses know nothing of the Law of Liberty, so keep stressing not breaking commandments. They don't know that a true Christian has the seed of the Spirit, and cannot break commandments, because their new nature just doesn't want to. A true Christian as the Holy Spirit. Those who say to Jesus, "Lord, Lord," but do not have the Holy Spirit, Jesus will say to them, "I never knew you." It is only by the Spirit are we known.

Repent and you shall receive the Holy Spirit.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I would rather a new believer understand the grace of God early than being placed under a legalistic Christianity leaving them guilty and ashamed.
A new believer knows when they sin. They don't have to be told. Why do you think they came to Christ in the first place? How God receives them after they sin...that is the question you should be concerned with.

So, tell me, when you stumble and sin against God, or even if it wasn't stumbling, if you just went ahead and did it, how do you perceive the Father looking at you? When you didn't 'obey'? What is His attitude towards you?

Stranger

It seems you do not know the true meaning of grace, if you believe a Christian continues to sin. Grace is the power of God to NOT sin. It is not something we earn. We merely repent and Jesus gives us His own sinless Spirit to make us like Himself. The Reformation did not understand the true meaning of grace. It is why Jesus called that church age, the dead church in Revelation 3.

This strange powerless doctrine of white-washed grace, calling it "unmerited" favor, started centuries ago and turns the grace of God into licentiousness. The truth is Jesus was manifest to take away our sin, and in Him there is no sin. 1 John 3:5. That doesn't mean we sin and it isn't imputed to us. It means we don't sin at all, making us dead to the law. 1 John 3:9 says, "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God." John starts with "sin is lawlessness." The law said we shall honor our parents, not to steal, kill, not to commit adultery, not to lie, and not to covet. A Christian does not break any of these willful sins, therefore are not under these laws.

 

[GodsGrace]

For me, eternal security has to do with obeying God. Understanding what you and I have been talking about has everything to do with that assurance. 1 John 3:18-24. Note the difference in "commandments." They are the "laws" of the New Covenant. Also, note that keeping any day of the week, even in commemoration of the creation or resurrection is not "commanded" among them. That again would be returning to rote action - carnal law - fallen from grace. But we are advised to be in the company of fellow worshipers for strength, especially in times of persecution to encourage us to endure to the end. That time is coming again in the USA. In California they are even trying to outlaw the Bible.

Also note that any time any of the Ten Commandments are listed as examples in the epistles, even when Jesus was teaching the rich young ruler, always had to do with our fellow human being, the last 6 commandments, which are all covered under the law of love. But the first four, having to do with God, are all summed up in believing on the name of Jesus Christ.

cc: @Bob Ryan

I agree with your first sentence. We can be eternally secure by believing and by living with our paraclete, the Holy Spirit and by doing our best to please God with our lives. I don't like to hear that the law has been abolished and that we are not required to obey the law. We do it out of love, fine, but it must be done if we're to be saved, even if we don't FEEL like obeying.

1 John 3:18-24 I'm not sure about your point. What is the difference between the commandments and the law? It's the same. The law refers to the moral law which is to be adhered to.

What you refer to as "rote action"...carnal law... I would describe as working for our salvation. Some work hoping to please God but do not really believe in Him or His commandments...these works will not save us, faith will save us and THEN we also must obey and do as God wishes.
Galatians 6:9

As to keeping a day, it IS commanded within the 10 commandments, is it not??
Remember to keep holy the Sabbath...

As to your last paragraph, Jesus said to listen to Him and the Father.
1 John 4:16
1 John 4:20

And also, let's remember what it means to believe in the name of Jesus...
To believe is to have faith in and to follow.

 

[GodsGrace]

Grace is: God receives and accepts us just like we are because Jesus has made us accepted to God.

Yes, God is just, that is why it cost Him His only Son. Will you say to God, that I can add to that?

No, God is not a 'moral' being. He is God. Morality is man's term. God will not be judged by man.

Well, you preach that we should not sin but you still recognize that you do. So how is that any different? You preach we should not sin, then why are you still sinning? Why should you speak in this manner?

Stranger

God receives us as we are. It's not:
Get right and then come to God.

It's:
Come to God and then get right.
That's sanctification...getting right. It lasts a life-time.

Of course you can add to Jesus' sacrifice. What can we add? Enough of our love so that we believe and follow and trust in the One who died for us to be freed from the slavery of sin.

God is not a moral being? Who created morality? Man?
Man destroyed morality...think of Adam and every other human you know.

I said we SHOULD not sin. I NEVER say we do not sin. In fact, the closer we get to God, the more we feel like sinners.

Do I sound preachy? Sorry. I don't mean to.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I agree with your first sentence. We can be eternally secure by believing and by living with our paraclete, the Holy Spirit and by doing our best to please God with our lives. I don't like to hear that the law has been abolished and that we are not required to obey the law. We do it out of love, fine, but it must be done if we're to be saved, even if we don't FEEL like obeying.

1 John 3:18-24 I'm not sure about your point. What is the difference between the commandments and the law? It's the same. The law refers to the moral law which is to be adhered to.

What you refer to as "rote action"...carnal law... I would describe as working for our salvation. Some work hoping to please God but do not really believe in Him or His commandments...these works will not save us, faith will save us and THEN we also must obey and do as God wishes.
Galatians 6:9

As to keeping a day, it IS commanded within the 10 commandments, is it not??
Remember to keep holy the Sabbath...

As to your last paragraph, Jesus said to listen to Him and the Father.
1 John 4:16
1 John 4:20

And also, let's remember what it means to believe in the name of Jesus...
To believe is to have faith in and to follow.

LAW had not been abolished, but which law do you think will justify you? The Ten Commandments or the Law of Liberty?

John 15:10
10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

Two different sets of commandments, but don't oppose one another.

Jesus kept the Ten Commandments as He lived under the law. But He preached new laws that would come into effect after He died. "To believe on Him, and to love one another."

Hebrews 9:15-17 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

16 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.

 

[gadar perets]

Such is the lie. You are simply walking by law, not by the Spirit.

Are you trying to please God by not stealing in obedience to the Law? God is not pleased. You have done nothing but establish your own righteousness. That goes for every other law you try and keep to be found pleasing to Him. He is not pleased, you have established your own righteousness.

As I said, go ahead, keep all the law perfectly. God is not pleased. You have established your own righteousness.

To try and please God by keeping the law is a walk in the flesh. And it always fails. And you are left a sinner before God needing grace.

Stranger

You obviously do not know how to please God.

John 8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
​

Yeshua knew full well that to obey his Father is pleasing to Him.

1 Corinthians 7:32 But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord:
​

This takes conscious thought. We must know what pleases Yeshua and then do it. What pleases him? "If you love me, keep my commandments" John 14:15

1 Thessalonians 4:1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Yeshua, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
​

The Thessalonians were taught how to walk (what they must do) to please God. What pleases God? "For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments: and His commandments are not grievous." 1 John 5:3

2 Timothy 2:4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.
​

We must know what pleases Yeshua and then DO IT. In context, we please Him by not getting entangled with worldly concerns, but focus on doing his will which includes keeping his commandments.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

The Thessalonians were taught how to walk (what they must do) to please God. What pleases God? "For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments: and His commandments are not grievous." 1 John 5:3

Do you know what "commandments" John is referring to?

 

[BobRyan]

There are many verses to show that OSAS is not true.
It came about with the reformation and Calvin's perseverance of the saints (which includes works BTW!) which we have changed today to mean OSAS.
Could you imagine that it took 1,500 years for this idea to come about....Do some suppose that all the theologians before this time were dumb?

I've asked many times for a verse that says we could live a life of sin and we will still be saved...but of course, this verse does not exist.

True. Matthew 7 "By their fruits you shall know them" -- where Christ said "bad fruit does not come from a good tree".

There is a "version" of OSAS (not all versions do this) that claims that loads of bad fruit come from a supposedly good tree -- all the way to the person's death and then no matter the statement of Christ to the contrary - that person is deemed to be a "good tree" no matter the fruit of it.

 

[BobRyan]

Do you know what "commandments" John is referring to?

The ones where "the first commandment with a promise" is "Honor your father and mother" Eph 6:2
The ones that Christ quotes in Matthew 19
The ones James lists in James 2
The ones God lists in Exodus 20

 

[1stCenturyLady]

True. Matthew 7 "By their fruits you shall know them" -- where Christ said "bad fruit does not come from a good tree".

There is a "version" of OSAS (not all versions do this) that claims that loads of bad fruit come from a supposedly good tree -- all the way to the person's death and then no matter the statement of Christ to the contrary - that person is deemed to be a "good tree" no matter the fruit of it.

Yes, unbelievable.

Check out one I found.

Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

This has been interpreted by OSAS as merely a loss of rewards.

 

[BobRyan]

Yes, I agree. The old commandments only showed us our sin. SIN was the problem. .

1 John 3:4 "sin IS transgression of the Law" even in the NT

Rom 3
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Rom 3
31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Heb 8:6-10 under the NEW Covenant that LAW is "written on the heart and mind"

 

[1stCenturyLady]

The ones where "the first commandment with a promise" is "Honor your father and mother" Eph 6:2
The ones that Christ quotes in Matthew 19
The ones James lists in James 2
The ones God lists in Exodus 20

No, I'm talking about John. What commandments was John referring to.

 

[BobRyan]

Yes, unbelievable.

Check out one I found.

Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

This has been interpreted by OSAS as merely a loss of rewards.

True - and yet Romans 6:23 says "the wages of sin is DEATH" not "less toys in heaven"

1 Cor 6 "Be not deceived" says Paul
7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded? 8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[BobRyan]

No, I'm talking about John. What commandments was John referring to.

Same ones as Christ in Matthew 19
As God in Ex 20
As Paul in Romans 13
As James in James 2.

And so Paul reminds us that in that list of commandments - the 5th commandment "is the FIRST commandment WITH a promise" Eph 6:2

Gal 1:6-9 "though WE (Apostles) or an ANGEL from heaven should come to you with a different doctrine - let him be accursed".

John knew about that.

They all speak in agreement.

"This IS the Love of God that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:2 is not the "circular statement" -- "This is the Love of God that we Love God"

 

[1stCenturyLady]

1 John 3:4 "sin IS transgression of the Law" even in the NT

Correct. So how does the New Covenant change that dilemma of SIN?

Rom 3
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Read on friend. There is a conclusion about sin - what is it?

Rom 3
31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

How do we establish the law with sin in us?

Heb 8:6-10 under the NEW Covenant that LAW is "written on the heart and mind"

Are the eternal laws of God before the foundation of the world written on our hearts, or merely the Ten Commandments?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

True - and yet Romans 6:23 says "the wages of sin is DEATH" not "less toys in heaven"

1 Cor 6 "Be not deceived" says Paul
7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded? 8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

Absolutely!

 

[BobRyan]

I NEVER said it is God's will that we sin!!! But, if (when) we do: 1 John 2:1 "My dear children, I am writing this to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate who pleads our case before the Father. He is Jesus Christ, the one who is truly righteous."

Agreed.

God is the same yesterday, today and forever. The New Covenant began at Jesus death, not His birth.

No one is lost under the New Covenant -- Jeremiah 31:31-33 it has the Law of God written on the heart.
No one is saved under the old Covenant - because the heart is not changed by the Old Covenant.

Adam was saved under the "one Gospel" covenant -- the only one that ever was as Paul reminds us in Gal 1:6-9. And "The gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7.