Eternal Security

[CoreIssue]

So how does that apply to the topic at hand?

It was in response to a post in which you brought up Jeremiah 32:38-40 , whose topic is Israel. As is the whole chapter in fact.

 

[Phoneman777]

I know your questions were for jbf, but the answer to #3 is "wrong". "Members of the Body of Messiah" would be right. One does not need to be a member of the Christian church to be a new creature in Messiah Yeshua.

I think we're both right. There are both those "which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law" that are "just before God", and those who hear the truth of Jesus and are "added daily to the church such as should be saved."

The former are those who will get to heaven and ask Jesus, "What are these wounds in Thine hands?" and He will respond "those with which I was wounded in the house of My friends."

 

[gadar perets]

You are only condemning yourself by your words. You learned of Him; but did not get to know Him well enough to understand that He is God; and therefore you renounced Him as being who He is (God).

You are a sick man jbf. You will stop at nothing to condemn me.

One must truly be a Christian to be considered by Christ to be a member of His body.

No. One only needs to have received Messiah Yeshua as their Saviour. No need to believe all the false doctrines of Christianity as well.

 

[gadar perets]

John 5:24, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 6:47, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

John 10:27-30, My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one.

Hebrews 13:5-6, Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee nor forsake thee. So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.

In the first scripture, the life that is given is everlasting, and that means it can never have an end. They shall not come into condemnation, that is absolute terminology, as opposed to the should not perish of John 3:16 (kjv). Also they cross over from death into everlasting life the moment they believe; they do not have to wait for death in order to have everlasting life. Their last breath on earth is their first breath in heaven.

In the second verse, everlasting life is given to those who believe on Jesus Christ. They have it in the present tense.

In the third verse, They are given eternal life, they shall never perish, very absolute terminology; and no one can pluck them out of Christ's hand. If that weren't enough, the Father's hand is even more secure because He is Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresent. So there is strong security in His hand. And to be in Jesus' hand is to be in the Father's hand; because they are one and the same Person.

Finally, in the fourth verse, Jesus promises you and me that He will never leave us nor forsake us. That word never is also a pretty strong word and is absolute terminology.

Now in case anyone sees the loophole in the third verse (John 10:27-30) and wants to say that a person can walk away from God and thus leave God's hand; first of all I would ask, why do you want to contend for this idea? Do you want people who are truly born again to turn away from God and so you want to believe that it is possible?

But really, Jeremiah 32:38-40 deals with this loophole quite adequately impaho; although some try to contend that it is a promise given only to Israel. I would contend that this promise to Israel reveals the Lord's nature and character towards all of His people and therefore would apply to all of His people. Also, in context (v.38) the scripture is identified as a promise not to Israel only, but to God's people; which includes believing Gentiles. Not to mention the fact that believing Gentiles are graffed into that olive tree which represents Israel and is identified as Israel in the holy scriptures.

All those verses are contingent upon belief in Yeshua. Those who renounce him no longer believe in him and lose all that they had in him. Yes, he will never leave us, but we can leave him.

 

[Phoneman777]

Anyone who, having a parachute, would take off their parachute before jumping out of an airplane, would have to be insane. So I would guess that the mentally ill are the only ones who can lose their salvation. But really, if we have faith in Him, we cannot lose our salvation; and having a mental illness isn't going to change that.

You fail to see the issue from any other perspective than that of your own OSAS. What if a plane was carrying you to a place of unspeakable torture? Would that jump then seem insane to you?

To the saint who decides drugs are more important than Jesus, a place eternally free of narcotics would be to him a place of torture to him.
...or the saint who decides pornographic sexual gratification is more important, a place eternally free from such indulgence would be place of torture to him.
...or the saint who decides his liquor bottle is more important, a place eternally free of booze would be a place of torture to him.

You who subscribe to OSAS think that God is going to "push a button" at the Second Coming and suddenly make you hate the lip-biting pleasure of sin that is so irresistible in the here and now. That is NOT a Biblical in the least. If you're going to be saint in heaven, you must learn to be a saint on Earth.

 

[gadar perets]

I think we're both right. There are both those "which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law" that are "just before God", and those who hear the truth of Jesus and are "added daily to the church such as should be saved."

The former are those who will get to heaven and ask Jesus, "What are these wounds in Thine hands?" and He will respond "those with which I was wounded in the house of My friends."

"Church" refers to those who have been called out to faith in Messiah Yeshua. The "Christian church" is a specific sect of those called out. A person can be called out (be part of the church) without being part of the Christian church.

 

[Phoneman777]

"Church" refers to those who have been called out to faith in Messiah Yeshua. The "Christian church" is a specific sect of those called out. A person can be called out (be part of the church) without being part of the Christian church.

My comments to JBF were intended contextually to concern only Jews and evangelized Gentile converts. It was not necessary order to make my point to him to drag into the discussion those "sects" that have never heard of Christ but submitted to the promptings of the Holy Spirit and are become justified before God.

So, why do you insist on dragging it into this discussion? And why do you sound like one of those "salvation by pronunciation" guys?

 

[gadar perets]

My comments to JBF were intended contextually to concern only Jews and evangelized Gentile converts. It was not necessary order to make my point to him to drag into the discussion those "sects" that have never heard of Christ but submitted to the promptings of the Holy Spirit and are become justified before God.

So, why do you insist on dragging it into this discussion? And why do you sound like one of those "salvation by pronunciation" guys?

I made a simple correction to something you wrote. Who knew you guys were going to correct my correction and misunderstand my point as well. I'm not the one dragging this out. The fact that you are questioning whether or not I am a "salvation by pronunciation" guy shows me that you still do not understand my original correction, so let's just drop it.

 

[CoreIssue]

The question of where some saints will be in Eternity has been debated many times.

My opinion, I stress opinion, is that the New Jerusalem is only for the Church and Israeli saints. Its 12 foundations are named after the 12 Apostles. Its gates are named after the 12 tribes of Israel.

The OT saints not of Israel and the NT saints who never heard the gospel will reside on the New Earth but outside of the New Jerusalem.

I stress, purely my theory.

 

[justbyfaith]

You are a sick man jbf. You will stop at nothing to condemn me.

Now may the Lord abundantly bless you, my friend.

You fail to see the issue from any other perspective than that of your own OSAS. What if a plane was carrying you to a place of unspeakable torture? Would that jump then seem insane to you?

In the scenario given, the person has a parachute and jumps out of the plane without it. That is insane. Where the plane is taking you is inconsequential; you have the option of jumping out of the plane with the parachute.

To the saint who decides drugs are more important than Jesus, a place eternally free of narcotics would be to him a place of torture to him.
...or the saint who decides pornographic sexual gratification is more important, a place eternally free from such indulgence would be place of torture to him.
...or the saint who decides his liquor bottle is more important, a place eternally free of booze would be a place of torture to him.

You are speaking in terms of a million oxymorons. A saint is by definition someone who is sanctified and therefore Jesus is #1 in his life.

I stress, purely my theory.

The introduction of damnable heresies as spoken of in <edit--> 2 Peter 2:1-3, I am certain, often occurred through the power of suggestion, the heretic never being adamant that his doctrine was correct, but merely making it a suggestion to the body of Christ.

 

[CoreIssue]

Now may the Lord abundantly bless you, my friend.

In the scenario given, the person has a parachute and jumps out of the plane without it. That is insane. Where the plane is taking you is inconsequential; you have the option of jumping out of the plane with the parachute.

You are speaking in terms of a million oxymorons. A saint is by definition someone who is sanctified and therefore Jesus is #1 in his life.

And yet, Paul made it clear those it never heard the name of Jesus can still be saved. That would include those before Israel.

In fact, Israel never heard the name Jesus or his gospel.

You just condemned millions to lake of fire.



The introduction of damnable heresies as spoken of in 2 Peter 3:1-3, I am certain, often occurred through the power of suggestion, the heretic never being adamant that his doctrine was correct, but merely making it a suggestion to the body of Christ.

And yet, Paul made it clear those it never heard the name of Jesus can still be saved. That would include those before Israel.

In fact, Israel never heard the name Jesus or his gospel.

You just condemned millions to lake of fire. You, who said God died on the cross.

I suggest you read more carefully before try to use verses against others.


2 Peter 3:1-3 New International Version (NIV)
The Day of the Lord
3 Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking. 2 I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles.

3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires.


Heretic | Define Heretic at Dictionary.com
Heretic definition, a professed believer who maintains religious opinions contrary to those accepted by his or her church or rejects doctrines prescribed by that church.

I'm nondenominational, so you misuse the word.

scoffer - Dictionary Definition : Vocabulary.com
someone who jeers or mocks or treats something with contempt or calls out in derision

Where did I scoff?

You are trying to defend yourself by falsely accusing me.

 

[bbyrd009]

One must truly be a Christian to be considered by Christ to be a member of His body.

and then you woke up

look i know you need everyone else to burn in order to make your sick desire for your ego to become immortal a possibility, but it isn't anything like Christianity ok, why not just go be a Catholic already?

 

[Phoneman777]

I made a simple correction to something you wrote. Who knew you guys were going to correct my correction and misunderstand my point as well. I'm not the one dragging this out. The fact that you are questioning whether or not I am a "salvation by pronunciation" guy shows me that you still do not understand my original correction, so let's just drop it.

I didn't misunderstand anything. I'm fully aware there will be people in the kingdom who've never heard the Gospel. They are as much members of God's "church" as anyone, contrary to your claim.

To limit the word "church" to just "baptized folks who meet together on Sunday" is bad exegesis. Are not those who have never heard the Gospel but respond in submission to the Holy Spirit as every much a part of God's people as these others?

"Salvation by Pronunciation" guys tend to be inclined toward narrow interpretation, as well as insist on Hebrew renderings despite the NT writer's frequent use of Greek, which is why I asked.

 

[Phoneman777]

In the scenario given, the person has a parachute and jumps out of the plane without it. That is insane. Where the plane is taking you is inconsequential; you have the option of jumping out of the plane with the parachute.

Not if the only thing below the plane is one giant Auschwitz.

You are speaking in terms of a million oxymorons. A saint is by definition someone who is sanctified and therefore Jesus is #1 in his life.

Not oxymorons - Scenarios which any thinking person knows happens all the time. People walk away from Jesus everyday. Any saint who decides sin is more precious than Jesus ceases to be a saint and heaven to him ceases to be eternal bliss and becomes eternal torment. [/QUOTE]

 

[justbyfaith]

re #1791:

Sorry, I meant 2 Peter 2:1-3 (kjv).

Not if the only thing below the plane is one giant Auschwitz.

So are you saying that when a person receives salvation they receive salvation unto an eternal existence in hell? Because if jumping out of the airplane with a parachute represents salvation, you are saying that the end result is being in one giant Auschwitz, which I would identify as hell. This is simply backwards thinking. Salvation is unto an eternal existence in heaven (something like Hawaii rather than Auschwitz).

Not oxymorons - Scenarios which any thinking person knows happens all the time. People walk away from Jesus everyday. Any saint who decides sin is more precious than Jesus ceases to be a saint and heaven to him ceases to be eternal bliss and becomes eternal torment.

People can walk away from "the faith", because all they had if they do so was a mental assent to the tenets of the gospel. But if someone has a genuine living and saving faith, they cannot lose their salvation (John 5:24, John 6:47, John 10:27-30, Hebrews 13:5, Matthew 28:20), and will not walk away from faith (as opposed to "the faith"). (Jeremiah 32:38-40).

 

[gadar perets]

I didn't misunderstand anything. I'm fully aware there will be people in the kingdom who've never heard the Gospel. They are as much members of God's "church" as anyone, contrary to your claim.

Yes, you misunderstood my point because it had absolutely nothing to do with people in the Kingdom who never heard the Gospel. My point relates to people like me that are not "Christians", but who ARE members of the Body of Messiah through faith. You wrote, "3) New Creatures in Christ is another way of saying "members of the Christian church", right?" However, I am a new creature in "Christ", but I am not a member of the "Christian church". Thus my need to correct your statement.

To limit the word "church" to just "baptized folks who meet together on Sunday" is bad exegesis. Are not those who have never heard the Gospel but respond in submission to the Holy Spirit as every much a part of God's people as these others?

Yes, I agree with both statements (which, again, have nothing to do with my point).

"Salvation by Pronunciation" guys tend to be inclined toward narrow interpretation, as well as insist on Hebrew renderings despite the NT writer's frequent use of Greek, which is why I asked.

We are saved by grace through faith, not by pronunciation. However, if one wants to worship in truth and loves the truth, then that person will want to restore the Father's name where men removed it and the Son's name where men changed it to their own liking.

 

[justbyfaith]

A Christian is someone who by definition believes in Jesus Christ: and to believe in Jesus Christ does not mean to believe in a different Jesus than the Jesus of the historic Christian faith (see 2 Corinthians 11:3-4).

 

[gadar perets]

A Christian is someone who by definition believes in Jesus Christ: and to believe in Jesus Christ does not mean to believe in a different Jesus than the Jesus of the historic Christian faith (see 2 Corinthians 11:3-4).

I agree. The Savior himself is not the issue. It is what Christianity makes him to be and makes him to teach that is the problem. The problem is also what Christianity makes his early disciples to teach. What Christianity today teaches is NOT what the Bible teaches concerning several key doctrines. They teach a lot of truth, but not when it comes to the trinity and Torah.

BTW, if I lived in Paul's, I would not have a problem being called a Christian because their doctrines back then were true.

 

[justbyfaith]

I agree. The Savior himself is not the issue. It is what Christianity makes him to be and makes him to teach that is the problem. The problem is also what Christianity makes his early disciples to teach. What Christianity today teaches is NOT what the Bible teaches concerning several key doctrines. They teach a lot of truth, but not when it comes to the trinity and Torah.

BTW, if I lived in Paul's, I would not have a problem being called a Christian because their doctrines back then were true.

It seems to me that you have a problem with God's Sovereignty and love.

Why or how would God, being both sovereign and loving, allow the religion that He defines as the only way to salvation, to be corrupted to the point that those who officially believe in that religion don't even have the truth that brings salvation?

 

[CoreIssue]

Seems like free will is being ignored.