Eternal Security

[gadar perets]

Actually, such a person never loved Christ to start.

Such a person is described in Hebrews 6:4-8.

 

[CoreIssue]

Such a person is described in Hebrews 6:4-8.

Once enlightened means to be made aware. It does not mean made to love.

 

[gadar perets]

Once enlightened means to be made aware. It does not mean made to love.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, - These people were enlightened by the light of the world living in them.

and have tasted of the heavenly gift, - Tasted can also refer to eating. It is not clear what the heavenly gift is. Perhaps it is Messiah, or eternal life, or faith .... I believe it is Messiah. These people received Messiah for a time and tasted that he is good. They at least began learning of Messiah. They did not consume enough of him to keep them in the faith. They did not develop a personal relationship with him and did not come to truly know him or he them. They renounced him.

and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit - They received the indwelling Holy Spirit which sheds forth love in their hearts, but they obviously grieved the Holy Spirit away by their actions/rejection of Yeshua.

Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God - The were learning Scripture by tasting/eating its words, - They did not eat enough of the Word to keep from falling away.

and the powers of the world to come - That is, miracle working powers that come through the indwelling Holy Spirit. Such was displayed by those in Matthew 7:23, but they were lost as well.​

 

[Phoneman777]

Shouldn't you have written, "I wholeheartedly disagree" since the rest of your post is against eternal security, but Rollo Tamasi's post was for eternal security?

This is what he wrote at the end of his post:

...we have eternal security.
But don't kid yourself.
One who is truly filled with the Spirit of God will never give up their eternal security.

I believe we are Eternally Secure in Jesus as long as we don't make the decision to be lost again by rejecting the authority of God over our lives, which authority includes He the Master over we the slaves, He the Potter and we the clay, He the Example and we the emulators.

 

[gadar perets]

This is what he wrote at the end of his post:

...we have eternal security.
But don't kid yourself.
One who is truly filled with the Spirit of God will never give up their eternal security.

I believe we are Eternally Secure in Jesus as long as we don't make the decision to be lost again by rejecting the authority of God over our lives, which authority includes He the Master over we the slaves, He the Potter and we the clay, He the Example and we the emulators.

Yes, I understand what you believe and I agree with it, but that is not what Rollo believes. I think, by the underlined and bold phrase above, that Rollo meant "can never be lost". I could be wrong. Hopefully @Rollo will clarify his meaning.

 

[CoreIssue]

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, - These people were enlightened by the light of the world living in them.

and have tasted of the heavenly gift, - Tasted can also refer to eating. It is not clear what the heavenly gift is. Perhaps it is Messiah, or eternal life, or faith .... I believe it is Messiah. These people received Messiah for a time and tasted that he is good. They at least began learning of Messiah. They did not consume enough of him to keep them in the faith. They did not develop a personal relationship with and did not come to truly know him or he them. They renounced him.

and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit - They received the indwelling Holy Spirit which sheds forth love in their hearts, but they obviously grieved the Holy Spirit away by their actions/rejection of Yeshua.

Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God - The were learning Scripture by tasting/eating its words, - They did not eat enough of the Word to keep from falling away.

and the powers of the world to come - That is, miracle working powers that come through the indwelling Holy Spirit. Such was displayed by those in Matthew 7:23, but they were lost as well.​

Unsaved taste and share in the holy spirit by association with saved. An unsaved spouse shares with a saved spouse.

I've known some very biblically knowledgeable people who were unsaved. Some who knew they were going to hell refused to bow to god. Preachers who became atheist.

This is not a quick and easy subject.

 

[gadar perets]

Unsaved taste and share in the holy spirit by association with saved. An unsaved spouse shares with a saved spouse.

I've known some very biblically knowledgeable people who were unsaved. Some who knew they were going to hell refused to bow to god. Preachers who became atheist.

This is not a quick and easy subject.

Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
​

Unsaved people cannot "fall away" from something they were never part of, nor can they be renewed again unto repentance if they were never made new via repentance in the first place. Yeshua was crucified for the believer once. After they renounce him and bring shame upon him by doing so, they cannot return to him and have him crucified again/afresh for their sake.

 

[CoreIssue]

Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
​

Unsaved people cannot "fall away" from something they were never part of, nor can they be renewed again unto repentance if they were never made new via repentance in the first place. Yeshua was crucified for the believer once. After they renounce him and bring shame upon him by doing so, they cannot return to him and have him crucified again/afresh for their sake.

Where does is say they were saved? Nowhere.

They fell away from a knowledge of the gospel so it is impossible to bring them back to knowledge and get them saved.

There are no conditional statements in Romans 8 that allows someone to go from saved to unsaved. Shall does not mean maybe.

 

[bbyrd009]

Yeshua was crucified for the believer once.

yet the sins of the whole world are forgiven

 

[Phoneman777]

Gentile believers are graffed into the olive tree, which is Israel (Romans 11:11-24).

Israel is defined as all those who are of a clean heart (Psalms 73:1).

Before any true believer would get to the point where he might renounce Jesus, the same believer would be subject to the chastening of the Lord as the Lord would do that in order to deal with any sin that might eventually grow to the extent that it might cause a man to renounce Christ.

The fear of the LORD is something that God doesn't only give to the children of Israel. The scripture is a book filled with principles that we can lay hold of regardless of whether in context the promise applies to us as Gentiles or not.

Gentiles can partake of promises given to Israel according to reasoning that I present to you above.

I've got questions about this verse in Galatians for you:

6:15 "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace [be] on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God."
​

1) Paul's declaration of "peace" is limited only to those who "walk" according to a rule, right?
2) That rule is: a person, no matter if a Jew or Gentile, must become a new creature in Christ, right?
3) New Creatures in Christ is another way of saying "members of the Christian church", right?

So, doesn't that exclude literal Israel as being "the Israel of God" for two reasons: that DNA lineage is inconsequential and that they (except for Israelite converts to the Christian church) do not walk as new creatures in Christ?

And does not that lead us to conclude that Paul is essentially saying the following, "As many of you Galatians who walk according to this rule, peace and mercy upon you, AND ALSO ON the entire church everywhere - the Israel of God"?

 

[Phoneman777]

Yes, I understand what you believe and I agree with it, but that is not what Rollo believes. I think, by the underlined and bold phrase above, that Rollo meant "can never be lost". I could be wrong. Hopefully @Rollo will clarify his meaning.

Oh, I thought he meant straight up forfeiting salvation.

 

[gadar perets]

Where does is say they were saved? Nowhere.

They fell away from a knowledge of the gospel so it is impossible to bring them back to knowledge and get them saved.

Any unbeliever can have a mere knowledge of the gospel, but not accept it at that time. However, years later that same person can most assuredly accept it, believe, and be saved.

There are no conditional statements in Romans 8 that allows someone to go from saved to unsaved. Shall does not mean maybe.

I would say there are several conditional statements in Romans 8. All the bold are conditions.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Messiah Yeshua, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
​

In conjunction with this, Paul said each believer's flesh wars against the Spirit (Galatians 5:17). There are many believers who yield to the lust of the flesh, especially concerning fornication and adultery. By doing so they grieve the Holy Spirit and weaken their spiritual power to overcome. This can lead to renouncing Yeshua and going from saved to unsaved.

​

 

[gadar perets]

3) New Creatures in Christ is another way of saying "members of the Christian church", right?

I know your questions were for jbf, but the answer to #3 is "wrong". "Members of the Body of Messiah" would be right. One does not need to be a member of the Christian church to be a new creature in Messiah Yeshua.

 

[CoreIssue]

Any unbeliever can have a mere knowledge of the gospel, but not accept it at that time. However, years later that same person can most assuredly accept it, believe, and be saved.


I would say there are several conditional statements in Romans 8. All the bold are conditions.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Messiah Yeshua, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
​

In conjunction with this, Paul said each believer's flesh wars against the Spirit (Galatians 5:17). There are many believers who yield to the lust of the flesh, especially concerning fornication and adultery. By doing so they grieve the Holy Spirit and weaken their spiritual power to overcome. This can lead to renouncing Yeshua and going from saved to unsaved.

​

We're not talking about any unsaved. Were talking about those who worked with the body of Christ, even professing been saved as a lie for being a preacher.

I repeat, there is no exception in Romans 8. To say there are exceptions says Romans is a lie.

 

[bbyrd009]

Hopefully @Rollo will clarify his meaning.

ah, is Rollo still around? your tag did not enter btw, @Rollo Tamasi

 

[justbyfaith]

There are certain promises that are only for Israel.

That is your opinion; unless you can back up your statement with scripture. And even if it is the case, you have not shown that Jeremiah 32:38-40 is given to Israel alone.

I wholeheartedly agree. Eternal Security may be cast off by us before exiting this world just as sure as we may remove the parachute before jumping out of a plane. God will never force one who becomes a saint to remain a saint against there will. Nothing grieves the heart of the Holy Spirit more than a sinner or saint that decides his sin, which cost the life of God's dear beloved Son, is more precious in their sight than is the Cross which ALONE makes possible the conversion of a sinner to a saint.

Anyone who, having a parachute, would take off their parachute before jumping out of an airplane, would have to be insane. So I would guess that the mentally ill are the only ones who can lose their salvation. But really, if we have faith in Him, we cannot lose our salvation; and having a mental illness isn't going to change that.

They at least began learning of Messiah. They did not consume enough of him to keep them in the faith. They did not develop a personal relationship with him and did not come to truly know him or he them. They renounced him.

You are only condemning yourself by your words. You learned of Him; but did not get to know Him well enough to understand that He is God; and therefore you renounced Him as being who He is (God).

Unsaved people cannot "fall away" from something they were never part of, nor can they be renewed again unto repentance if they were never made new via repentance in the first place.

My response to this is to reference John 5:24, John 6:47, John 10:27-30, and Hebrews 13:5-6. I may decide to actually quote them in a post further down for easier study, along with the reasons why these verses mean that someone who is born again through faith in Jesus Christ cannot lose their salvation.

So, doesn't that exclude literal Israel as being "the Israel of God" for two reasons: that DNA lineage is inconsequential and that they (except for Israelite converts to the Christian church) do not walk as new creatures in Christ?

Israel is not excluded in the sense that they also have the invitation given to them to receive Christ and thus be graffed back into their own olive tree.

I know your questions were for jbf, but the answer to #3 is "wrong". "Members of the Body of Messiah" would be right. One does not need to be a member of the Christian church to be a new creature in Messiah Yeshua.

One must truly be a Christian to be considered by Christ to be a member of His body.

 

[justbyfaith]

John 5:24, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 6:47, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

John 10:27-30, My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one.

Hebrews 13:5-6, Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee nor forsake thee. So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.

In the first scripture, the life that is given is everlasting, and that means it can never have an end. They shall not come into condemnation, that is absolute terminology, as opposed to the should not perish of John 3:16 (kjv). Also they cross over from death into everlasting life the moment they believe; they do not have to wait for death in order to have everlasting life. Their last breath on earth is their first breath in heaven.

In the second verse, everlasting life is given to those who believe on Jesus Christ. They have it in the present tense.

In the third verse, They are given eternal life, they shall never perish, very absolute terminology; and no one can pluck them out of Christ's hand. If that weren't enough, the Father's hand is even more secure because He is Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresent. So there is strong security in His hand. And to be in Jesus' hand is to be in the Father's hand; because they are one and the same Person.

Finally, in the fourth verse, Jesus promises you and me that He will never leave us nor forsake us. That word never is also a pretty strong word and is absolute terminology.

Now in case anyone sees the loophole in the third verse (John 10:27-30) and wants to say that a person can walk away from God and thus leave God's hand; first of all I would ask, why do you want to contend for this idea? Do you want people who are truly born again to turn away from God and so you want to believe that it is possible?

But really, Jeremiah 32:38-40 deals with this loophole quite adequately impaho; although some try to contend that it is a promise given only to Israel. I would contend that this promise to Israel reveals the Lord's nature and character towards all of His people and therefore would apply to all of His people. Also, in context (v.38) the scripture is identified as a promise not to Israel only, but to God's people; which includes believing Gentiles. Not to mention the fact that believing Gentiles are graffed into that olive tree which represents Israel and is identified as Israel in the holy scriptures.

 

[justbyfaith]

The scriptures quoted in #1777, above, are promises given to those who will lay hold on them.

If anyone wants to study further, they can look up the following scriptures which speak of how we can obtain the promises of God by faith:

2 Peter 1:3-4;

2 Corinthians 1:20;

Hebrews 11:33; and,

Romans 4:20-22.

Of importance is Hebrews 11:29, which speaks of the contrast between faith and presumption.

 

[CoreIssue]

justbyfaith
CoreIssue said: ↑
There are certain promises that are only for Israel.
That is your opinion; unless you can back up your statement with scripture. And even if it is the case, you have not shown that Jeremiah 32:38-40 is given to Israel alone.

What are the covenants in the Bible?

 

[justbyfaith]

justbyfaith
CoreIssue said: ↑
There are certain promises that are only for Israel.
That is your opinion; unless you can back up your statement with scripture. And even if it is the case, you have not shown that Jeremiah 32:38-40 is given to Israel alone.

What are the covenants in the Bible?

So how does that apply to the topic at hand?