Eternal torment and emotional conflict

[ATP]

You and I cannot be confident in our salvation until we actually standing face to face with Jesus.

I disagree. We certainly can be confident. It's His Grace that keeps us, and not our works.

All Sins Are Covered - Col 2:13-15 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

All Sins Are Covered - Rom 4:1-8 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” 4Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: 7“Blessed are those whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. 8Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”

There Is Now No Condemnation - Rom 8:1-4 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh,b God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Who Will Bring Any Charge - Rom 8:33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.

God Loved First - Rom 8:37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.

Neither Present Nor Future - Rom 8:38-39 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

God's Righteousness Keeps Us Saved, Not Ours - Romans 10:3-4 Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

Inheritance Kept In Heaven For You/Shielded By God's Power - 1 Peter 1:3-5 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

We Were Chosen/We Were Marked With A Seal - Eph 1:11-14 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Salvation is a Gift - Eph 2:7-9 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

We Have Crossed Over From Death To Life - John 5:24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. 25Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.

Cannot Be Snatched From Jesus/Father's Hand - John 10:25-30 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

The Holy Spirit Will Never Leave Us - John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever.

The Lord Is With Us Always To The Very End Of The Age - Matt 28:16-20 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

A Good Work is Carried Out on to Completion - Phil 1:6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

Enduring Is Not About Losing Salvation, It's About Gaining/Losing Crowns In Heaven After You Die. - 1 Cor 9:24-27 Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. 25Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. 27No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

1 - Crown 1 - Crown Of Righteousness— Loved The Lord's Appearing - 2 Tim 4:8
2 - Crown 2 - Incorruptible Crown— Disciplined Bodies / Self-Control - 1 Cor 9:25-27
3 - Crown 3 - Crown Of Life— Endured Patiently Thru Trials - James 1:12, Rev 2:10
4 - Crown 4 - Crown Of Glory— Godly Leaders Who Were Examples To Flock - 1 Pet 5:2-4
5 - Crown 5 - Crown Of Rejoicing— Soul Winners Crown - 1 Thess 2:19, Dan 12:3

- ATP

 

[KingJ]

You misquoted 1 Cor 10:12. The scripture is not talking about losing your salvation. You ignored verse 13. (1 Cor 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be temptedd beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.)

Vs 13 says ''for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.''. Now if you had no pre conceived ideas that reads rather easily as ''God leads the footsteps of the righteous Psalm 37:23 + it speaks of us having God's nature / renewed with ''God who works in us''. Much like a guy in love with his wife is renewed to be a good and faithful husband.

1 Cor 10:13 is just saying that God will not be responsible for stumbling / bowling us over......this does not eqaute into Him removing our free will to shipwreck what we have with Him. You are again reading with a pre-conceived idea.

I do agree with ATP. You did misquote that piece of text, but why would you use that verse? I'm just curious, that is one of the weakest verses that does support your argument.

I have to ask that question right back at you in reverse. This is the utlimate verse from Paul to us. It is parting instructions 101.

Therefore, my dear friends (us), as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue (don't stop as though you think you have made it) to work out your salvation (judge yourself harshly along the lines of 1 Cor 11:31) with fear and trembling (not oozing with confidence in your salvation guilty of 1 Cor 10:12).

Salvation is a Gift - Eph 2:7-9 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

I think this is where many OSAS are stuck. YES, amen salvation is a gift. But OT people had to get themselves to Abrahams bosom over Hades before salvation came into the picture. Nothing has changed. Without Psalm 51:17 or similar Matt 16:24 (denying ourselves / repenting / hating sin) there is NO free salvation en route to us.

We get ourselves to ABosom. God takes us from AB to heaven = salvation. Living after the cross we don't need AB....but that does not mean we don't come to the airport. That is why we daily judge ourselves. ARE WE EN ROUTE TO Jesus? Do we really HATE sin?

 

[ATP]

I think this is where many OSAS are stuck. YES, amen salvation is a gift. But OT people had to get themselves to Abrahams bosom over Hades before salvation came into the picture. Nothing has changed.

Nothing's changed? Seriously? How about Jesus resurrecting from the dead. Non-OSAS critics don't have a leg to stand on.

 

[KingJ]

I disagree. We certainly can be confident. It's His Grace that keeps us, and not our works.

1. All Sins Are Covered - Col 2:13-15 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

2. All Sins Are Covered - Rom 4:1-8 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” 4Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: 7“Blessed are those whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. 8Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”

3. There Is Now No Condemnation - Rom 8:1-4 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh,b God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

4. Who Will Bring Any Charge - Rom 8:33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.

5. God Loved First - Rom 8:37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.

6. Neither Present Nor Future - Rom 8:38-39 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

7. God's Righteousness Keeps Us Saved, Not Ours - Romans 10:3-4 Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

8. Inheritance Kept In Heaven For You/Shielded By God's Power - 1 Peter 1:3-5 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

9. We Were Chosen/We Were Marked With A Seal - Eph 1:11-14 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

10. Salvation is a Gift - Eph 2:7-9 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

11. We Have Crossed Over From Death To Life - John 5:24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. 25Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.

12. Cannot Be Snatched From Jesus/Father's Hand - John 10:25-30 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

13. The Holy Spirit Will Never Leave Us - John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever.

14. The Lord Is With Us Always To The Very End Of The Age - Matt 28:16-20 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

15. A Good Work is Carried Out on to Completion - Phil 1:6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

16. Enduring Is Not About Losing Salvation, It's About Gaining/Losing Crowns In Heaven After You Die. - 1 Cor 9:24-27 Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize ? Run in such a way as to get the prize. 25Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. 27No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

1 - Crown 1 - Crown Of Righteousness— Loved The Lord's Appearing - 2 Tim 4:8
2 - Crown 2 - Incorruptible Crown— Disciplined Bodies / Self-Control - 1 Cor 9:25-27
3 - Crown 3 - Crown Of Life— Endured Patiently Thru Trials - James 1:12, Rev 2:10
4 - Crown 4 - Crown Of Glory— Godly Leaders Who Were Examples To Flock - 1 Pet 5:2-4
5 - Crown 5 - Crown Of Rejoicing— Soul Winners Crown - 1 Thess 2:19, Dan 12:3

- ATP

1,2. Amen, all sins are covered when our names stay in the Lambs book of life. You can't read the one verse without the other.
3. No condemnation to those that '''are in Christ''. Amen. When we judge ourselves to be 'in Christ' we covered. Just like David who could commit mortal sins but his hatred for them / desire to sincerely repent / not hide from God = in Christ.

Christianity is really not rocket science. Love darkness = out of Christ. Hate darkness = repent truthfully = find Jesus = in Christ.

4. Amen. God and no person can condemn us when 'WE are in Christ'.
5. Amen. God loved ALL first.
6. Amen. When we are in Christ. But this verse is very very very interesting indeed. It speaks to me of God still loving and caring for those that go to hell. The devil was once loved by God. Could God NOT have said the same thing to him? I believe this verse is evidence of the heart of God that eternally loves ALL of His creation. EVEN the most wicked.
7. Amen. Everyone has sin. Nobody can get themselves into God's presence without Jesus. But we can keep ourselves out of Hades / sin NEVER automatically eqauls Hades and Hell!
8. Amen if we in Christ / name in Lambs book of life.
9. Marked with seal and names written in the Lambs book of life. Much like the Jews. But yet we have those that were removed from the promise / predestination / book of life Ex 32 reads rather easily. I don't understand why there is any confusion. No man can remove us but God can. Ex 32:32-33 But now, please forgive their sin—but if not, then blot me out of the book you have written.” The Lord replied to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book''.
11. Amen. That is why there is little hope for us when we trample Jesus.
12. Covered in 9.
13. You need to read that verse with Eph 4. It is much like God will never leave nor forsake us....but us....He is a good God who will NEVER over ride our free will. Eph 4:30-32 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.

So from these scripture it seems rather obvious that we do not grieve the Holy Spirit WHEN we 'get rid of X and Y' (hate evil / repent). I think when God says '''do not'' He means ''do not'' and we can draw only one conclusion from that warning surely.

14. Amen.This is along the lines of point 6.
15. Amen. That is why we need to continue to judge ourselves.
16. HAHA. It is both. We ARE humans. We ARE NOT God. This is the risk with teaching OSAS. God knows when we have passed His session of harsh judgment of mind and soul Jer 17:9-11. But we don't. WE need to continue judging ourselves daily! Teaching complacency when we are NOT in heaven...is unwise.

We CANNOT grasp God Job 9:3. You ''''''could''''''' be right. But let's rather teach all of scripture. It points to us needing to live cautiously / judge ourselves daily AND have confidence in God keeping us if we love Him. As long as we define 'loving Him' properly, OSAS and Arminian will always get on!! B)

Nothing's changed? Seriously? How about Jesus resurrecting from the dead. Non-OSAS critics don't have a leg to stand on.

Gospel OT = repent sincerely / Hate what is evil
Gospel NT = repent sincerely / Hate what is evil PLUS the good news for all God's people OT and NT!!

Do you believe God is partial to us, living in the NT?

 

[Forsakenone]

Hell is eternal and also biblical (Mark 9:42-48/Rev 20:10)

Really? Since science say that energy can neither be created nor destroyed, then hell must could not be exist in this universe but outside this world since in 2 Peter 3:10 it isn't until the the heavens end with a great noise that the fervent heat begins to burn up the everything in this world. If hell is eternal then it had to exist before the universe if the universe was created in the beginning?

 

[ATP]

6. Amen. When we are in Christ. But this verse is very very very interesting indeed. It speaks to me of God still loving and caring for those that go to hell. The devil was once loved by God. Could God NOT have said the same thing to him? I believe this verse is evidence of the heart of God that eternally loves ALL of His creation. EVEN the most wicked.

9. Marked with seal and names written in the Lambs book of life. Much like the Jews. But yet we have those that were removed from the promise / predestination / book of life Ex 32 reads rather easily. I don't understand why there is any confusion. No man can remove us but God can. Ex 32:32-33 But now, please forgive their sin—but if not, then blot me out of the book you have written.” The Lord replied to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book''.

6. Refers to saints only, born again believers. Please do your research.
7. Exodus is before resurrection, there was no indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

 

[KingJ]

6. Refers to saints only, born again believers. Please do your research.
7. Exodus is before resurrection, there was no indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

6. I wasn't disputing that. Try and see the heart of God behind such scripture though. That is where I feel you are falling short. Try reading John 3:16 before you read that scripture.
7. Have you ever studied Rev 3 properly?

I like Rev 3:3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you. What is interesting here is that '''waking up / being alert and ready = active repentance / holding on to the gospel of repentance and standing for / holding onto Jesus as our Lord. Jesus is Lord = we deny ourselves / submit our will to His. Ie WE actively make Him our Lord and are not ashamed of it when brought before others. We don't say ''well I can deny Jesus and not repent....because I am born again I am automatically victorius''. Granted there are two types of OSAS believers. I guess the typ I would agree with would say that a true born again believer would never deny Jesus and not repent / hate sin.

Reading on.... vs 5 ''the one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life...'' Now taking verse 3 above into account plus these verses below in the letter to the next church leave absolutely no doubt in my mind as to what 'victorius' is.

8 I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9 I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you. 10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

ATP the biggest argument I have with OSAS is that many fail to see that it implies God is partial with us NT. God is NOT partial to anyone. If Jews could be blotted out and go to hell....and us not...the Jews have a valid complaint against God one day in hell don't you think? Imagine YOU were a Jew...who served God faithfully your whole life and then just couldn't resist a moment of extreme evil....and landed up in hell for it :wub:.

MANY want to believe in OSAS because it implies ''live as you want, as long as you are in the right religion, attend the right church, belive in Jesus over father christmas you will go to heaven. Paul preached a Christainity of continuing in harsh self assessment. Phil 2:12 alone debunks OSAS as a wise belief for us. Not saying it can't be true. God is great. We can't grasp Him. Wisdom is grasping we can't grasp Him. Wisdom is listening closely to Paul's teaching.

 

[ATP]

6. I wasn't disputing that. Try and see the heart of God behind such scripture though. That is where I feel you are falling short. Try reading John 3:16 before you read that scripture.

Well, you kinda were. You said Rom 8:38-39 is referring to all people. But it's not, it's referring to only the elect, born again believers Rom 8:33.

7. Have you ever studied Rev 3 properly?

When I say the phrases "indwelling of the Holy Spirit" and "before resurrection/after resurrection", do you know what I'm speaking of.

 

[Jun2u]

“Only if you believe that there is truly a teaching of eternal torment and torture in the Bible!

Many people do not understand the deeper meaning of Scripture passages because they read and critique Scripture like it's an ordinary book, instead of believing and obeying that the contents of the Bible contains the words of God which is trustworthy. Comparing scripture with scripture and spiritual things with spiritual. 2Ti. 3:16=17. 1Co. 2:13

Jesus spoke in parables and without a parable spake He not unto them: and when they were alone. He expounded all things to His disciples. Mr. 4:34; 11-12.

A parable is an earthly story with a heavenly meaning and the Bible, therefore; becomes a parable for it is God's story book to mankind.

The true believers are the only ones given to understand the more difficult passages according to the Scripture above, and likewise, as Jesus declared in John 10:27 that only His sheep hears His voice and they follow Him.

Armed with the knowledge of the scripture texts already given, below is how I perceive the phrase “eternal punishment” to mean in biblical term.

The terms “eternal punishment”, “where their worm dieth not”, and “for ever and ever” have not the same meaning in the English or any other language from that of Scripture. All these terms are synonyms for the word “condition”.

In other words, God's holy justice demands payment for the wages of sin. The payment is death/punishment! Death means complete annihilation never to exist again! The “condition” of this death/punishment is eternal, for ever and ever, complete destruction.

Even in the death of the wicked, the love and mercy of God shines forth, in that, there will not be any sufferings to endure for the unsaved. God loves His creation so much that He does not wish for anyone to perish but the wages of sin must be paid. In fact, upon entering Jerusalem, God even cried, “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Mt. 23:37

On the other hand, imagine what a believer would feel when in heaven and upon learning some of his loved ones will be destroyed. That will be sad, very, very sad indeed! But be of good cheer.

God said that the former things will not come to remembrance no more, that means, the past lives of believers on earth would have been erased when in heaven. Isa. 65:17

What an awesome God I serve!

To God Be The Glory

 

[KingJ]

1. Well, you kinda were. You said Rom 8:38-39 is referring to all people. But it's not, it's referring to only the elect, born again believers Rom 8:33.


2. When I say the phrases "indwelling of the Holy Spirit" and "before resurrection/after resurrection", do you know what I'm speaking of.

1. My ''Amen, when we are in Christ'' = all people.... Then you are hardly trying to grasp what I am trying to tell you. Read vs 32 properly ''He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things?'' What is clear about this verse and it is repeated throughout the passage is that God, loves us immensely. There is no evil / shortfall / failure His side in the relationship. For you to then assume this suddenly encompasses our side is a joke. What I am proposing is that His love is so great that even if we shipwreck things from our side / love the darkness like those of John 3:19 / follow in the footsteps of the devil... not even hell will stop God's love. You really believe this passage is saying God will over ride our free will to hate Him because we say some magical catch phrases....?

2. When I ask ''do you believe God is partial to us NT'' why do you ignore answering it?

 

[ATP]

You really believe this passage is saying God will over ride our free will to hate Him because we say some magical catch phrases....?

Rom 8:38-39 For I am convinced that neither

1. death nor life
2. neither angels nor demons
3. neither the present nor the future
4. nor any powers
5. neither height nor depth
6. nor anything else in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I count six things that can't separate us from God, even the present nor the future. THat is unconditional love.

2. When I ask ''do you believe God is partial to us NT'' why do you ignore answering it?

I don't know what you're asking here. Sorry.

 

[KingJ]

Even in the death of the wicked, the love and mercy of God shines forth, in that, there will not be any sufferings to endure for the unsaved. God loves His creation so much that He does not wish for anyone to perish but the wages of sin must be paid. In fact, upon entering Jerusalem, God even cried, “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Mt. 23:37

On the other hand, imagine what a believer would feel when in heaven and upon learning some of his loved ones will be destroyed. That will be sad, very, very sad indeed! But be of good cheer.

''Wages of sin must be paid''. So the wages of sin is death right. Is Jesus dead? Scripture says ''It pleased God to bruise Jesus / cause Him to suffer / cause Him grief'' I don't know how so many interpret death from God's vantage point as equaling death from ours. Did you know that there are people who love ''''death''' Prov 8:36.

Even in the death of the wicked, the love and mercy of God shines forth, in that, there will not be any sufferings to endure for the unsaved.

On the other hand, imagine what a believer would feel when in heaven and upon learning some of his loved ones will be destroyed. That will be sad, very, very sad indeed! But be of good cheer.

God said that the former things will not come to remembrance no more, that means, the past lives of believers on earth would have been erased when in heaven. Isa. 65:17

You believe a God that annihilates a thief with a murderer is awesome? Death of the wicked = His love and mercy shines forth?????

Humans are NOT ''things'' that will not come to remembrance''.

We do not see through a glass darkly in heaven = we have greater minds. We do 'not remember' because we do not care to remember. If people are suffering or being annihilated...guess what....only a sickofantic would not care to remember.

Imagine YOU are about to be annihilated and FORGOTTEN like some '''thing'' that was in the trash heap.

Please try and see how terrible your belief is. If we don't remember it is not because God makes us dumb, it is because we know that all are loved and cared for by God. We accept that those in hell don't want to be with God. There is no scripture that says God will torture those in hell. It only says torment. Torment and torture are different words. Annihilation is > eternal torture...but that is still not saying much of God.

In a nutshell you believe God is good because He mercilessly annihilates all humans who hate Him and then causes those who love Him to forget them..... . What of Rom 2:6? What of God being an open book in His dealings with us? Doesn't the fact that we have God given brains + His word + He died for us + He came in flesh to be with us....point in that direction?

I don't know what you're asking here. Sorry.

Partial = favoritism.

We are SpEcIaL. Because we can say some magical words / believe in Jesus / or actually do hate sin and repent sincerely....that then... because we are living with the Holy Spirit in us / luckily after the cross .....we will not have our name blotted out like the poor Jews of Ex 32.

Are you partial to your kids? You don't see how sick your belief is...in that it implies God is partial...?

Rom 8:38-39 For I am convinced that neither

1. death nor life
2. neither angels nor demons
3. neither the present nor the future
4. nor any powers
5. neither height nor depth
6. nor anything else in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I count six things that can't separate us from God, even the present nor the future. THat is unconditional love.

Unconditional love from God's side.

God loves everyone John 3:16 is crystal clear on that. God loves even those who go to hell. That is why He keeps them alive for eternity. Loving them = honoring their free will to hate Him.

Do you believe God loved the devil? Do you believe God loves the fallen angels? Does God allowing the devil to tempt Him on not one but three occasions in the wilderness point toward hate or love? Does God casting demons into pigs point toward hate or love?

I really like looking at the ''behind the scenes'' of the devil being removed from heaven. God could have flicked Him away like a pesky red ant. But instead God allowed him to throw a tantrum / leave like a dragon / had angels on his level remove him = allowed him to leave with some dignity.

 

[ATP]

Please try and see how terrible your belief is.

I'm a little confused of what you believe in. Do you believe in Non-OSAS?

 

[KingJ]

I'm a little confused of what you believe in. Do you believe in Non-OSAS?

I thought that would be clear. I am Arminian. But open to OSAS if its ''once truly saved = eternally saved''....and we all grasp the need to examine ourselves to be 'in Christ'. An OSAS person should ask themselves....'If I were truly saved would I be committing this mortal sin over and over?'.

 

[ATP]

An OSAS person should ask themselves....'If I were truly saved would I be committing this mortal sin over and over?'.

1 John 3:9 NIV No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

 

[Jun2u]

KingJ,

I guess you have never read or looked at Isa. 65:17; Ec. 1:11; 9:5 until now. You may believe that humans are not “things” but that was the language used in the texts above. I did not craft them but God.

I think I know where you're coming from. You believe in a god that loves everybody along with the evil angels and those who will spend eternity in hell (if there ever is such a thing) because he loves them and will care for them. Well this is exactly the kind of god you have created but sorry to have to disappoint you that he is NOT the God of the Bible.

The God of the Bible said that He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. When He decreed the wages of sin is death, He will surely do it and it will come to pass, for He does not change. Death in this instance is complete destruction.

The most quoted and misunderstood passage in the Bible is John 3:16.

You said and I quote:
God loves everyone John 3:16 is crystal clear on that. God loves even those who go to hell. That is why He keeps them alive for eternity. Loving them = honoring their free will to hate Him.

You must not have read the scripture texts below to make such claims. You might have a rude awakening!

Ps 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
Ps 36:12 There are the workers of iniquity fallen: they are cast down, and shall not be able to rise.
Ps 92:7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is
that they shall be destroyed for ever:
Pr 10:29 The way of the LORD is strength to the upright: but destruction shall be to the workers of
iniquity.
Pr 21:15 It is joy to the just to do judgment: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity

These passages are but a few of many like texts in Scripture.

The correct Understanding and Biblical view of John 3:16.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Contrary to the belief of the world, this verse does NOT say that God loves anyone and everyone in the world. If this was true then there is no sense to have a command and punishment for “the wages of sin.” Hell will not be occupied.

There are two key words that needs to be qualified and when found will make the text clearer to understand. The key words are “so” and “whosoever”.

The word “so” means “thus” or “in this manner”.
The “whosoever” does not convey “anyone” or “everyone” but rather, they are those whom the Father gave to Jesus in John 6:44, the only ones who will believe, and none other.

Thus, John 3:16 can be understood this way:

For God in this manner (in what manner?) loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that only those whom the Father gave to Jesus[SIZE=12pt] will believe and not perish, but have everlasting [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]life.[/SIZE]

Consider this, in John 6:44 the word “can” MEAN “power”. The text then is understood thus:

“No man has the power to come to me unless the Father draw him...”

Where I pray tell, in what part of John 6:44 can you find “free will” or in any other part of the Bible? [SIZE=12pt]Free will is never taught in Scripture![/SIZE]

That's right! You need to revise your understanding of the true Gospel. I suggest you read the very first few paragraphs of my first post above, you might learn how God gave to man the methodology by which he can understand the deeper meanings of Scripture.

To God Be The Glory

 

[KingJ]

You are wrong on John 3:16. The ''world is loved'' comes first. For your view to have any value the 'whomsoever' needs to come first. World never means 'believers only' in any other scripture either. 'God so loved the world that believers.' = Does not work!! What does work = God so loved the believers.... in the world'' Calvinism debunked ^_^.

God does not hate men. God hates sin. Prophets are describing things from their vantage point when they see God destroy the wicked. You need to try see things from God's point of view Jonah 4:2. Take a look at ISIS. Does God hate them? Take a look at Paul murdering Christians. Did God hate him? Casting demons into pigs = hate or some love? Allowing the devil to harrass Him in the wilderness on more then one occasion point to patience or utter hatred? Please look at where the evidence points. Don't make assumptions about God like you can grasp Him. We cannot grasp Him Job 9:3. Rom 9 says God can do anything. The rest of scripture tells us what God does in fact decide to do. No man made assumptions of God making some for hell needed! Can and do are different words. We need to grasp as David did that we give thanks BECAUSE God is good Psalm 136:1. We don't need to cough when we say God is good. Annihilation = No free will to hate God = evil. Partiality with limited atonement = evil. What is most disturbing is that you are ok with a belief that everyones ''God given'' brain discerns as evil. You are reading and discerning without the Holy Spirit. You are failing terribly at hermeneutics.

You said God does NOT change!! Amen!! Matt 5:44 shows us the heart God wants us to have toward our enemies......His heart....2 Cor 5:17. God loves the enemy today, yesterday and tomorrow.

You said ''The God of the Bible said that He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. When He decreed the wages of sin is death, He will surely do it and it will come to pass, for He does not change. Death in this instance is complete destruction.'' Lets look at Adam and Eve. They were promised death if they ate of the fruit right? Did they die or did they just leave God's presence? Does them ''living on.... in death'' point to God giving them a second chance at reconciliation / repenting / hating what is evil.....or does it point to ALL hope gone? Scripture says the wicked are ''dead'' in their sins. ISIS members seem pretty alive to me. You ignored my Prov 8:36 example.

Your sig says ''to God be the glory''. Why? How do you judge God of deserving any glory if you believe as you do?

KingJ,

I guess you have never read or looked at Isa. 65:17; Ec. 1:11; 9:5 until now.

Isa 65:17....You assume this means God will wipe our memory clean? You need to read all scripture that speaks of our brains in heaven and then add them all together before you form your opinion. Lets just add ''we will no longer see through a glass darkly'' = our minds kind of at maximum potential / are increased / we see clearly = God has NOTHING to hide...He is NOT making us DUMBER. So add the two together and we get.....'we don't care to remembr because now that we see better, we see that God is REALLY REALLY good'. Not ''God hides the evil side to Him from us''.....

Ecc 1:11 has nothing to do with the subject. The only point here is that ...children of today don't fully recall WW2. Or children of today don't know their great great grandfathers.

Eccl 9:5-6 For the living know that they will die, = The living / God's people are wise, .
but the dead know nothing; = the wicked aren't.
they have no further reward, = Yes, no reward from God in heaven. All their possessions on earth are burnt up.
and even their name is forgotten. = Oneday in hell it will be like ''who cares who Sadam is'' we all the same down here.
Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; = after the first 100 years of the new millinenium who will even recall ISIS?
never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun. = Eternal banishment from God's presence.

So, you believe in a God that selects people for heaven from birth, will mercilessly annihilate all who aren't selected and hide this evil side to Him from us for all eternity.....and you give glory to Him...really...??

Please try and understand the whole point I was trying to make earlier about the Geneva convention. If the unsaved treat their enemies who put their children in gas chambers so humanely / well...how much MORE should we...how much more should our God who changed our hearts? Unless, you feel annihilation is something your enemy deserves..... :wacko:. You are simply making terrible assumptions and customizing scripture to suit your belief, the irony of your accusation of me doing that.... I accept I cannot grasp God. I LOOK at where the evidence points. I give thanks because the evidence points to a good God. God is good in the past. God is good in the present. Now you assume He is a nutcase in the future...?

GIVE THANKS BECAUSE GOD IS GOOD, His love is eternal Psalm 136:1.

1 John 3:9 NIV No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

What this is saying is that those born of God are not sin'ners....They may have sin, we all do.... but we repent and hate it Rom 12:9. God has distinguished from day 1 between those that hate and those that love the darkness Rom 7:15, John 3:19.

This verse bats for both Arminian and OSAS 'if truly saved'. We can both say that a mortal sinnner is en route to hell. No matter how much he professes to be saved / believe in Jesus.

 

[ATP]

So if we do continue in unrepentant sin, are we born of God?

You should put it like this: So if we do continue in unrepentant sin and then suddenly die tmrw, do we still go to heaven? The answer is yes, because the blood of Jesus Christ shed on the cross covers all sin.

 

[KingJ]

You should put it like this: So if we do continue in unrepentant sin and then suddenly die tmrw, do we still go to heaven? The answer is yes, because the blood of Jesus Christ shed on the cross covers all sin.

I edited my statement a bit before I saw your reply.

That scripture you quoted clearly says.....we know one is born of God because they do not continue to sin. Continue to sin = unrepentant sin.

God's people sin, but hate it Rom 7:15. Hate it = repent = try best to not continue in it. Trying does not speak of works based salvation but the heart conditon of a child of God.

You should put it like this: So if we do continue in unrepentant sin and then suddenly die tmrw, do we still go to heaven? The answer is yes, because the blood of Jesus Christ shed on the cross covers all sin.

There is truth to your statmemt along the lines of James 5:20. But just as a depth of intent for good, can alleviate us from the responsibility of many sins, likewise a depth of intent in the other direction can cause us to shipwreck our salvation.

We don't have to agree 100%. I told you that from our vantage point OSAS is a bad belief if it is not accompanied with verses like Phil 2:12. But if it is....and OSAS believers recognize the need to judge themselves daily, harshly...then we will all get on like a house on fire .

 

[ATP]

We don't have to agree 100%. I told you that from our vantage point OSAS is a bad belief..

Well it's not a bad belief, more than it is a biblical fact. We don't lose salvation, rather we lose peace in this life and rewards in heaven. Many people are just confused of how the word "lose" is applied.