Eternal Torment Or Annihilation? What Happens To The Wicked

[Hobie]

If they live there with the other wicked then its eternal life, so that is not what they have. Living in eternal place underground or purgotary is a false doctrine of pagan origin. The wicked have an eternal (no life or existence) separation from God as He is able to resurrect, but a complete and total separation means, never to be brought back to life. That is what happens at the second death at the Lake of Fire..

 

[ScottA]

I hope many can join this discussion on the fate of the wicked, as it is a important topic which has been hard to understand, with many pastors and ministers preaching a eternal torment of sinners, saying that the fires there are never quenched or the wicked destroyed. But do the wicked get to live forever too, with the Devil in charge with his minions tormenting the sinners in a underworld, does it mean that the fire doesn't consume. Lets see what the scripture says.

The Devil from the begining has tried to present God as a liar, who does not tell man the truth about sin, which Satan is the father of. Let start with Gen 2:15-17:
And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tre...

Your message is too long.

Nonetheless, eternal torment and annihilation are the same, just as God is "the same yesterday, today, and forever."

 

[Windmillcharge]

Sin is an offence to an eternal God and the punishment is as severe as the offence.

 

[Hobie]

Sin is an offence to an eternal God and the punishment is as severe as the offence.

Yet, the punishment must fit the crime and being held in torment without ceasing is not justice, and God is just. Here is a great explanation I came across.."
God would certainly NOT approve of any courtroom sentencing any human criminal to unending conscious physical torture 24x7x365. That judgment would certainly be worse than the crime itself! They would understand that this would go against the very moral fiber built into their consciences (fallen as they may be). So we see in this specific area of our own penal system, God has placed this right understanding of punishment even among the unsaved (Romans 2:15). Then why do believers “shut off” their God given consciences and suppress every fiber in their being which screams “Eternal conscious torture (the Traditional view of hell) really does not make sense!” The punishment does not fit the crime.

Messianic Rabbi Loren Jacobs rightly observes:

Hell is a place of eternal punishment, but there is a difference between eternal punishment and eternal punishing. It is one thing to experience a punishment that is eternal in its consequences; it is another thing to experience eternal punishing. The Bible also speaks of eternal judgment (Hebrews 6:2), but it is not a judgment that continues eternally, rather a judgment that comes to an end that has eternal consequences.
The punishment must fit the crime. It does not seem right that trillions of years of torture, and more (since that would only be the beginning of one’s torture), await those who committed crimes for a few years here on Earth.
Source: What I Believe, What I Reject, Rabbi Loren

Even in Torah (Books of Moses), there was no basis for unending physical torture-none. The conscience strokes due to a person were always limited.

If the guilty man deserves to be beaten, the judge shall make him lie down and have him flogged in his presence with the number of lashes his crime deserves, but he must not give him more than forty lashes. (Deuteronomy 25:2-3)

Even Yeshua (Jesus) taught limited conscience physical sufferings upon the guilty:

“That servant who knows his master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. (Luke 12:47-48)

The adjectives “many” and “few” in Luke 12 could not be used if eternal conscious torment were what He was teaching here. He would have used “heavier” and “lighter” if the duration of conscience sufferings were eternal. So according to Yeshua’s (Jesus”) own words, some will have “many stripes” (Hitler types) and some will have “few stripes” (only God knows).

Now there will indeed be pain and suffering in the dying process. That much is absolutely true, (just look at what happened to Jesus (Yeshua) on the cross). However, the “wage of sin” (Romans 6:23) is ultimately death, not the suffering process in getting to death itself. It is the “second death” (Rev. 2:11).

Again, it is eternal punishment, not eternal punishing. (Matthew 25:46) Death (when body and soul destroyed in hell) is the punishment; and it lasts forever. That is why it is called eternal punishment. It is a punishment with everlasting effects. Remember, Jesus Himself tells us that the fire was never made for humans, it was “prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matthew 25:41). Humans, however, will be destroyed there–cremated according to Isaiah 66:24.

Notice, Paul also tells us exactly what the punishment of the lost is: “Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:9). Paul clearly says they will be destroyed (not preserved) and that the destruction will last forever. After suffering according to their sins, they will be shut out from everlasting life and miss out on seeing the glory of God. It is capital punishment: body and soul destroyed in hell."

 

[St. SteVen]

Not sure if it has been considered on this topic...
But there is a third doctrinal option. (to damnation and annihilation)

Apokatastasis in the Bible

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[Hobie]

Well as you can see from your own post, it has "Christian universalism that includes the ultimate salvation of everyone", which to say the least, is not scriptural..

 

[St. SteVen]

Sin is an offence to an eternal God and the punishment is as severe as the offence.

I'm familiar with that argument, but it makes no sense to me.

God is eternal = the punishment for sin is eternal (does not compute)

What if we look at it this way?

Humankind are mortal/temporal = the punishment for sin is mortal/temporal (works better?)
Consequences begin while we are still in this earthly life.

For all earthly offenses, a life sentence is the maximum one can pay. (even for multiple life sentences)
We only have one life to give.

/

 

[St. SteVen]

Well as you can see from your own post, it has "Christian universalism that includes the ultimate salvation of everyone", which to say the least, is not scriptural..

Not scriptural? Nonsense.

The roots of UR are in the early church in the east.

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge" by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96 German theologian- Philip Schaff, Editor: "In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

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[St. SteVen]

Well as you can see from your own post, it has "Christian universalism that includes the ultimate salvation of everyone", which to say the least, is not scriptural..

I find it interesting that someone will choose one of the three views and then declare the other two as unbiblical.
As if there was only one choice.

You have chosen Annihilationism. Couldn't the Damnationists say the same thing about you? (unbiblical)

/

 

[Hobie]

Not scriptural? Nonsense.

The roots of UR are in the early church in the east.

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge" by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96 German theologian- Philip Schaff, Editor: "In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

/

Then why does Christ say to repent if everyone goes anyway with sin and all. And the wicked get eternal life?
No my brother, you are preaching doctrines of devils.

 

[St. SteVen]

Then why does Christ say to repent if everyone goes anyway with sin and all. And the wicked get eternal life?
No my brother, you are preaching doctrines of devils.

You are exhibiting the common ignorance about UR. I understand why you would misunderstand.
I can help you understand if you want to. It's not what you think.

And yes. I agree that repentance is required. (acknowledgement of Jesus as Lord)

Everyone will face the judgment. No one goes to "heaven" without dealing with their issues.
I actually believe that Christians will have a harder time getting into heaven than unbelievers.
Unbelievers will be easily converted upon meeting God. Christians will likely argue doctrine with him. - LOL

Matthew 21:31 New Revised Standard Version Updated Edition
Which of the two did the will of his father?” They said, “The first.” Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you,
the tax collectors and the prostitutes are going into the kingdom of God ahead of you.

/

 

[St. SteVen]

I actually believe that Christians will have a harder time getting into heaven than unbelievers.

@Hobie
Here's what I mean by that.
You are probably familiar with this scripture below.
This indicates a process by which the bad is burned away to refine the good.
Notice that some will have their work completely burned up, yet will be saved.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 New Revised Standard Version Updated Edition
Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—
13 the work of each builder will become visible, for the day[a] will disclose it,
because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each has done.
14 If the work that someone has built on the foundation survives, the builder will receive a wage.
15 If the work is burned up, the builder will suffer loss; the builder will be saved, but only as through fire.

/

 

[Hobie]

You are exhibiting the common ignorance about UR. I understand why you would misunderstand.
I can help you understand if you want to. It's not what you think.

And yes. I agree that repentance is required. (acknowledgement of Jesus as Lord)

Everyone will face the judgment. No one goes to "heaven" without dealing with their issues.
I actually believe that Christians will have a harder time getting into heaven than unbelievers.
Unbelievers will be easily converted upon meeting God. Christians will likely argue doctrine with him. - LOL

Matthew 21:31 New Revised Standard Version Updated Edition
Which of the two did the will of his father?” They said, “The first.” Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you,
the tax collectors and the prostitutes are going into the kingdom of God ahead of you.

/

Well, lets see what Christ says..

Matthew 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 21:32
For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

Luke 13:3
I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Luke 15:10
Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

This is repentance of sin not just "acknowledgement of Jesus as Lord', to truly turn from iniquity and leave it behind, as we see..

John 8:11
She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

 

[St. SteVen]

Well, lets see what Christ says..

Good grief, what did I write in my post? Did you bother to read it?

And yes. I agree that repentance is required. (acknowledgement of Jesus as Lord)

And then you give me five verses about repentance as a rebuttal?
You aren't being fair with me. Obviously written me off and are refusing to listen. (sigh)

/

 

[St. SteVen]

This is repentance of sin not just "acknowledgement of Jesus as Lord', to truly turn from iniquity and leave it behind, as we see..

What about those who had no knowledge of Jesus Christ? (countless billions)

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven
and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly,
and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord.
No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved.
Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of
both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection)
Scriptural support below.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Further reading: Isaiah 45:23; Romans 14:11; Revelation 15:4

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[Hobie]

What about those who had no knowledge of Jesus Christ? (countless billions)

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven
and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly,
and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord.
No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved.
Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of
both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection)
Scriptural support below.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Further reading: Isaiah 45:23; Romans 14:11; Revelation 15:4

/

Ah, now your asking a good question.. In the islands are many who have never read the Bible and before that never had one, or heard what it says, so it hits home of what happens to those who have/had no knowledge of Jesus Christ?

Well what does scripture say about Job, and Jethro, and even Balaam who like Jonah tried to go against God. Were did they get the knowledge of Him...

 

[St. SteVen]

Ah, now your asking a good question.. In the islands are many who have never read the Bible and before that never had one, or heard what it says, so it hits home of what happens to those who have/had no knowledge of Jesus Christ?

Yes, now you understand. Thanks.

Well what does scripture say about Job, and Jethro, and even Balaam who like Jonah tried to go against God. Were did they get the knowledge of Him...

Please tell us. Thanks.
Frankly, that's only three. We have countless billions to answer about.
Those countless billions having already passed into the afterlife.
And more on the way.

You mentioned three before Christ. So we have all of them. (before Christ)
And then all of those after Christ. Those who never heard.

I'm guessing you will say they are not responsible if they never heard.
If so, how does that work out in the afterlife at the judgment?
And how is that different from what I m proposing with UR?
Every knee and every tongue. (in the realm of the dead)

/

 

[Behold]

I hope many can join this discussion on the fate of the wicked,

"Hell was created for the Devil and His fallen angels", before Adam was created who rebelled and took on the nature of the Devil.

So, that "nature" is the "Adamic" nature.. Its the sin nature or the "fallen nature" that is passed unto us all, as..

"by one man's sin, sin and death entered the world".

Its on YOU and ME........until we are "made free from sin".

So, in this world there are only Believers, born again, and Unbeliever's, who are not born again.

Some who think they are born again, are not, but they can sound like they are a Christian.
They can even sow the good works of a Christian. They can start churches and write books and commentaries.
They can even start "christian forums"..
They are RELIGIOUS but lost... They have a "Form of Godliness, but deny the power thereof.".

They SOUND like a Christian, they even believe themselves to be one..

They are not.

So, THOSE are counted as "unbelievers", and they will have "their part in the Lake of Fire that is the 2nd Death"..

And that DEATH is not annihilation. that is Eternal Damnation.

How long will the Damned be damned?

Well starting with dying not born again, they will exist in Damnation, in the Lake of Fire, for as Long as God lives.

They will not be given a second chance, in Hell nor in the Lake of Fire, because you can't be born again, once you DIE down here.

Christ died on THIS EARTH, and you have to be BELIEVE in Jesus and be born again on THIS EARTH, or you will die, in "Damnation" and you will never have an opportunity to change that, once you leave this earth .

JOHN 3:36

So, if you are not a Christian.....then you can become one right now..

See that Cross of Christ? That is Jesus paying for your sin, so that you dont have to after you die.

GO to HIM.... Trust Him, and God will make Heaven your Home today, and you never again have to worry about going to Hell.

Thats a promise, and God does not lie.

"ALL who call on the Name of JESUS, shall be saved".

Jesus told you....."All who Believe in me... I GIVE UNTO YOU>.. Eternal Life and you shall never go to Hell (Perish)""

Believe it.

 

[Hobie]

Yes, now you understand. Thanks.


Please tell us. Thanks.
Frankly, that's only three. We have countless billions to answer about.
Those countless billions having already passed into the afterlife.
And more on the way.

You mentioned three before Christ. So we have all of them. (before Christ)
And then all of those after Christ. Those who never heard.

I'm guessing you will say they are not responsible if they never heard.
If so, how does that work out in the afterlife at the judgment?
And how is that different from what I m proposing with UR?
Every knee and every tongue. (in the realm of the dead)

/

God speaks to man in many ways, so for us to limit Him is a bit, lets say unreasonable to say the least.

 

[Ritajanice]

God speaks to man in many ways, so for us to limit Him is a bit, lets say unreasonable to say the least.

Amen!...we can’t contain Gods Living word into a box....His Word is Alive And Active as we well know....Praise God for that heart revelation.xx