Eternally Burning Hell

[RND]

Man, by nature is mortal and not immortal. Job 4:17Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?Romans 6:12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.Romans 8:11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.Only Jesus is ever discussed in scripture as being "immortal." Man on the other hand has the "hope and promise" of immortality through Jesus Christ.1 Timothy 1:17Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.1 Timothy 6:16Who (Jesus) only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.2 Timothy 1:10But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:Eternal life is always shown to be a gift of God, a reward for our willingness to live a life in Christ Jesus, to walk in His ways, to live in His life.John 3:15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.John 6:54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. - Figureative language no doubt!John 10:28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.John 17:2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.Romans 6:23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.My question would be this then: If eternal life is a gift, as clearly the scriptures show it to be, then what type of "gift" would an "eternally burning hell," where supposedly, misery and torture reign, be? Is it possible that the eternal light of God the Father, the Shekinah Glory, once extinguished on the unrepentant is what leads to the torture and anguish of "second death?"

Fortunately, there are a few common sense website that easily dispel the pagan myth of man having an immortal nature and roasting on an open spit for eternity.www.helltruth.comwww.truthaboutdeath.comwww.christiantrumpetsounding.com/soul.htm - This one is really good! Short, to the point and historical.www.iofbk.com/id73.htmlI hope your Christian journey and walk are greatly enhanced in knowing that we do not serve a Heavenly Father bent on eternal destruction and torture of the lost and the wicked.Psalm 27:9Hide not thy face far from me; put not thy servant away in anger: thou hast been my help; leave me not, neither forsake me, O God of my salvation.Job 14:13O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!

 

[Bamp;#39;midbar]

I read part of the article that you linked to. (the first one) It seems to imply that you think hell, with the fire and punishment, will go on for awhile, but then stop. So you have an idea where I got that:
It would be pure speculation to suppose how long the fires of hell may actually burn, but we can be sure the suffering and anguish endured by the lost would be beyond our ability to describe.
So your issue is with hell going on longer than a certain amount of time, and not that God is letting them suffer with no hope of restoration?

 

[RND]

(B'midbar;11198)
I read part of the article that you linked to.
I linked to four separate web sites. Which article and from which site were you refering?
So your issue is with hell going on longer than a certain amount of time, and not that God is letting them suffer with no hope of restoration?
No to both suppositions.My issue is the false teaching of "eternally burning hell."

 

[Bamp;#39;midbar]

I cut it from the first link/article, as I stated. Um, it was two pages, so I'll try to link to the second page, where I found it... here.You mind the "eternally burning hell". Okay, I think you mean the eternal part. So it is okay to burn, just as long as it stops after some length of time. The flame has to end, correct? But you are okay with there being flame for awhile? I'm asking because some folks just go with total annihilation without some flame beforehand, because they don't like the idea of suffering that has no purpose of curing the person. I'm trying to tell if you are of that opinion, or if you do allow the suffering part to go on for awhile, so long as it stops sometime (be it 10 or 1000 years, whatever God decides, so long as he doesn't decide that it will be forever).I'm sorry, though, I did phrase what I said in a way that doesn't seem to represent what you said. I am not accustomed to how you think, and it is hard to translate in my head. When I try to think of a non-eternal hell, then it seems to me that it will be a certain length long. Thus, from my perspective, what bugs you is that it is any longer than that particular length, perhaps being the length that represents justice, and any longer would exceed justice? I do understand that you didn't phrase it that way, but that is somehow how it gets understood when I try to think of a non-eternal hell.

 

[RND]

(B'midbar;11202)
I cut it from the first link/article, as I stated. Um, it was two pages, so I'll try to link to the second page, where I found it...
You did note that...by bad for missing the obvious.
You mind the "eternally burning hell". Okay, I think you mean the eternal part. So it is okay to burn, just as long as it stops after some length of time. The flame has to end, correct?
This is where I part ways with traditional teaching and even some Adventist teaching. I believe God's "eternal" glory is the same Shekinah glory that eminated from atop the Ark between the two cherubim, or on the Mount of Zion. Nothing unholy or unworthy can be in it's presence.
But you are okay with there being flame for awhile? I'm asking because some folks just go with total annihilation without some flame beforehand, because they don't like the idea of suffering that has no purpose of curing the person. I'm trying to tell if you are of that opinion, or if you do allow the suffering part to go on for awhile, so long as it stops sometime (be it 10 or 1000 years, whatever God decides, so long as he doesn't decide that it will be forever).
I think it can be shown in scripture that it is "torture" to the "lost" to be in the presence of Holy Angels and the Lamb of God. See Revelation 14:10, 1110 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
I'm sorry, though, I did phrase what I said in a way that doesn't seem to represent what you said. I am not accustomed to how you think, and it is hard to translate in my head.
No offense taken. I hope bringing you this brings a new and fresh perspective of the ultimate eternal Love God the Father operates under.
When I try to think of a non-eternal hell, then it seems to me that it will be a certain length long. Thus, from my perspective, what bugs you is that it is any longer than that particular length, perhaps being the length that represents justice, and any longer would exceed justice?
Well, I certainly think your misunderstanding my beliefs somewhat, but then again, I never really let you know what my beliefs are. I believe that those found unworthy to be in Heaven for eternity will find this out on their own, through the pages of the Book of Life. They will see for themselves their own unworthiness and know that they do not deserve nor would they desire the life given by the Shekinah Glory of the Lamb.
I do understand that you didn't phrase it that way, but that is somehow how it gets understood when I try to think of a non-eternal hell.
I understand. Here is a link to a sermon by a very good Adventist pastor that is both humorous and thought provoking. I think it fairly well documents the great misunderstanding that the fear of "eternally" burning hell has wrought.It's only about fourty minutes and I hope you find it worth your time to examine."I'm going to Hell and looking forward to it!" - Marco BelmonteGod Bless.

 

[HammerStone]

From what I understand, I find myself in partial agreement to maybe even agreement with RND. Revelation 14:11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. The smoke deal is a Hebraism but it really shouldn't lose that much in our language. When you see a big fire on the horizon, what happens? The smoke rises, and rises, and rises. This is what is at play here, the smoke rises forever and this has absolutely no bearing on how long this supposed eternal torment lasts. Revelation 20:10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. "For ever and ever" here is something we have to be careful with. aijwvn Aion (ahee-ohn');Word Origin: Greek, Noun Masculine, Strong #: 165 [list type=decimal][*]for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity[*]the worlds, universe[*]period of time, age[/list]KJV Word Usage and Countever 71 world 38 never 6 evermore 4 age 2 eternal 2 miscellaneous 5 What I want people to see is that this is forever limited by the age or a period of time. If one is not sure as to what I meant about age, put that on the shelf for now, finish this thread, and check out our 3 Earth Ages Bible Study. For those of you that don't like utilize Strong's, the Bible will document what I have said: Revelation 20:13-14And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Now there is a hell, so don't follow this hogwash nonsense that there is not one. However, notice what is going on here, when the time comes for Judgment (Revelation 20:12) hell delivers up - this is the end of the age - what she has and those are judged and thrown into the lake of fire, the second death. We can take a page out of our earthly life to know what death means. You die, you cease to exist: Matthew 10:28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. The lake of fire is different from hell in that the second death takes place here at the end of this age. It doesn't say thrown back in to be tormented for ever.

 

[RND]

GP Denver.A special note might be to add who is tormented forever.Revelation 20:10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.The devil, the beast and the false prophet.

 

[Bamp;#39;midbar]

(Denver;11214)
Revelation 20:10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.... aijwvn Aion (ahee-ohn');Word Origin: Greek, Noun Masculine, Strong #: 165... What I want people to see is that this is forever limited by the age or a period of time. If one is not sure as to what I meant about age, put that on the shelf for now, finish this thread, and check out our 3 Earth Ages Bible Study.
The word aion can mean several things, but it is appearing in a phrase there in 20:10. That phrase happens a number of places in the NT. The next occurrence is in Rev 22:5, where I think it is talking about reigning forever. The most common place it seems to happen is in association with God and how his glory and stuff is forever. I think it means forever. But it is an entire phrase, not just the word aion. The phrase is more like, "to the ages of the ages", if I try a literal sort of wording. Transliterated, it is eis tous aionas ton aionon. Oh, here is a place where it is talking about God and his gloryhilippians 4:20 Now to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever. Amen.Here are more places with the phrase:Gal 1:5Philippians 4:201 Tim 1:172 Tim 4:18Heb 13:211 Pet 4:11Rev 1:6Rev 1:18Rev 4:9Rev 4:10Rev 5:13Rev 7:12Rev 10:6Rev 11:15Rev 15:7Rev 19:3Rev 20:10Rev 22:5

 

[RND]

I've waited in line for different events, such as movies, races, sporting events, etc.Why does it always seem that lines "last forever?" Sometimes at a restuarant then meal can seem to take "for ever" to get to the table. Sometimes business meetings seem to last "forever."In First Samuel, we see that Hannah gave Samuel to be with the Lord "for ever."1 Samuel 1:22But Hannah went not up; for she said unto her husband, I will not go up until the child be weaned, and then I will bring him, that he may appear before the LORD, and there abide for ever.Just a few verses later, we see "clarification" as to how long this actual period of "for ever" was to last.1 Samuel 1:28Therefore also I have lent him to the LORD; as long as he liveth he shall be lent to the LORD. And he worshipped the LORD there.It must be made abundantly clear man is not an "eternal" being with automatic "immortality." No where in either book of the Bible is it taught that man, by his own inherant nature, is "eternal" or "immortal."Nor is it taught anywhere in the Bible that God the Father keeps people "alive" for "eternity" to suffer through the ceasless ages of "eternity" for their transgressions. These types of teachings are pagan in origin (Babylonian/Egyptian) and nature and are absolutely no different than Buddist, Taoist or Hinduist beliefs that upon death the "soul" moves on to somewhere or into something. When the tombs of the ancient Egyptian Pharrohs were opened, the Pharrohs and all the worldly possessions their were burried with were right exactly where they were left, just as the God the Father promises, even though those that did the "burying" believed otherwise.

 

[Bamp;#39;midbar]

(RND;11213)
They will see for themselves their own unworthiness and know that they do not deserve nor would they desire the life given by the Shekinah Glory of the Lamb. I understand. Here is a link to a sermon by a very good Adventist pastor
I listened to the sermon by Marco (he seems to call himself that), or Pastor Marco. He seems to think that some views of hell drive people away from God. He seems to be trying to build up or suggest an alternate view that will be less likely to do that. He develops the idea of God and fire, like how there was the burning bush in that first theophany to Moses. He also talks about where Satan was before he fell. I wish he had given a specific point by point of what system he was trying to put in place. Is he trying to say that in heaven there will be a fire, the kind of fire that Moses saw (or the kind that was in the cloud and consuming fire on top of Sinai), and that fire will annihilate anyone who goes near it who is not holy? Then, for him there is no separate hell. There is only heaven, and the non-saved can’t be there, so when they go there (heaven/hell), they just go “poof”, up in a puff of smoke, totally annihilated from all existence? So they don’t spend eternity anywhere; rather, they are just gone.I accept the idea that only holy people will be in heaven. I accept the idea that fire is associated with theophany. I also accept the idea that the non-saved might find being in heaven or right at the throne of God to be very unpleasant and awful. I agree that the non-saved will know what they have done wrong on the day of judgment.Concerning the passage you are using to demonstrate that it is torture for the those who receive the mark of the beast to be in the presence of the Lamb and angels, I agree that it is saying that they will have torment and it will be in the presence of, or before, or in the sight of the Lamb/angels. But that is not the same as saying the torment is caused by being in heaven.That word, enopios, the Greek word that underlies the phrase “in the sight of” or “in the presence of” or “before”, what do you think it means there in Rev 14:10? Does it mean that those who received the mark of the beast are standing before the throne and the Lamb, by the glassy sea, in heaven, etc.? Or can the person be down here on Earth in the sight of the Lamb? Is this the second coming or is it later, in heaven? Here is another usage of this Greek word:1 Tim 5:21 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality.This does not mean to me that Paul is talking from heaven. It is some other kind of being in the presence or sight of. Any thoughts?

 

[RND]

(B'midbar;11230)
I listened to the sermon by Marco (he seems to call himself that), or Pastor Marco. He seems to think that some views of hell drive people away from God. He seems to be trying to build up or suggest an alternate view that will be less likely to do that. He develops the idea of God and fire, like how there was the burning bush in that first theophany to Moses. He also talks about where Satan was before he fell. I wish he had given a specific point by point of what system he was trying to put in place. Is he trying to say that in heaven there will be a fire, the kind of fire that Moses saw (or the kind that was in the cloud and consuming fire on top of Sinai), and that fire will annihilate anyone who goes near it who is not holy? Then, for him there is no separate hell. There is only heaven, and the non-saved can’t be there, so when they go there (heaven/hell), they just go “poof”, up in a puff of smoke, totally annihilated from all existence? So they don’t spend eternity anywhere; rather, they are just gone.
You know, I'm very glad that you listened to Pastor Marco Belmonte's sermon and I'm even more glad that it has awakened even more questions for you. That is a wonderful sign that you have a willing spirit that wishes to examine the scriptures and to search out what they say. You have asked some great questions and I would love to answer them for you. But I have a better idea. The same web site where I sent you to hear Marco's sermon is the very same web site frequented by Pastor Marco himself and I'd be willing to go out on a limb to suggest that if you search out Marco he can answer your questions directly. Simply head off to:www.heavenlysanctuary.com log into the forum and seek Marco out. He's answered my questions in the past, I'm certain he'll answer yours as well.
I accept the idea that only holy people will be in heaven. I accept the idea that fire is associated with theophany. I also accept the idea that the non-saved might find being in heaven or right at the throne of God to be very unpleasant and awful. I agree that the non-saved will know what they have done wrong on the day of judgment.
I'm glad we are in agreement on many of these points.
Concerning the passage you are using to demonstrate that it is torture for the those who receive the mark of the beast to be in the presence of the Lamb and angels, I agree that it is saying that they will have torment and it will be in the presence of, or before, or in the sight of the Lamb/angels. But that is not the same as saying the torment is caused by being in heaven.
No, I agree with that and if I suggested that or was unclear then my bad. I think the Shekinah Glory of the Lord is so powerful it either gives life or destroys life.
That word, enopios, the Greek word that underlies the phrase “in the sight of” or “in the presence of” or “before”, what do you think it means there in Rev 14:10?
My Strong's book, not the web site (which I find suspect at times) lists #1799 - enopion. The book says the word is a compliation of 1722 and a derivitive of 3700. The word means in the face of (literally or figuratively)-before, in the presence (sight) of, to.This word is used for "presence" in Rev 14:10. I think the word used in that verse is fairly consistent with the above meaning. So that would mean to me that they are tortented "in the presence or sight of" the angels and the Lamb.
Does it mean that those who received the mark of the beast are standing before the throne and the Lamb, by the glassy sea, in heaven, etc.? Or can the person be down here on Earth in the sight of the Lamb? Is this the second coming or is it later, in heaven? Here is another usage of this Greek word:1 Tim 5:21 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality.
Your questions are good ones regarding what your asking with respect to being in the presence of the Lamb. In verse six there is an angel in heaven proclaiming the everlasting gospel. In verse nine another angel proclaims the warning to man about receiving the ecclesiastical mark of the beast, but it doesn't say that this angel is in heaven. But I think we can infer that. So I guess I'll have to say heaven.In the KJV usage the word "presence" is not used in this verse.1 Tim 5:21I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.
This does not mean to me that Paul is talking from heaven. It is some other kind of being in the presence or sight of. Any thoughts?
I think from verse one in Rev, 14 we can see that Paul was in spirit and had a view as to what was happening in Heaven.God Bless.Say hi to Marco for me!

 

[HammerStone]

The word aion can mean several things, but it is appearing in a phrase there in 20:10.
I understand that point well. I would just point out the subject difference in the examples that you cited. In each case it's an appointed time related to the subject. In God's case, he is forever. That is his age if you will. That's why you have to look at the rest of the verses of Revelation 20 to put it all into context.

 

[Bamp;#39;midbar]

(RND;11235)
In the KJV usage the word "presence" is not used in this verse.1 Tim 5:21I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.I think from verse one in Rev, 14 we can see that Paul was in spirit and had a view as to what was happening in Heaven.
RND, it is not my style to seek someone out on another board, but thank you for the suggestion.About the word enopion, I just realized I made your life difficult by typing it as enopios. Sigh. Anyway, enopion is in the other verse that I gave. It is translated as “before” in the KJV in 1 Tim 5:21. So it is an example of the usage of that word. Look in the Greek and you will see it is there. So you know, usually I will have given a verse in the most recent version of the NASB, though not always.That verse (1 Tim 5:21) sort of reminds me of the second coming, because both Jesus and the angels are mentioned, and I associate that combination of two words with judgment.Wow. In investigating the smoke of torment going up forever, it really made me want to crack a joke in poor taste about a “pleasing odor” (KJV sweet savour) to the Lord. That is an allusion to OT language about sacrifices made by fire. Well, I refrained from the joke!, but when I went to look up stuff about smoke rising in Isaiah, right there I found sacrificial language. Language about fat, blood, lambs, and goats. I’d never noticed that. Here is where I mean:
Isaiah 34:5 For My sword is satiated in heaven, Behold it shall descend for judgment upon Edom And upon the people whom I have devoted to destruction. 6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, It is sated with fat, with the blood of lambs and goats, With the fat of the kidneys of rams. For the LORD has a sacrifice in Bozrah And a great slaughter in the land of Edom. 7 Wild oxen will also fall with them And young bulls with strong ones; Thus their land will be soaked with blood, And their dust become greasy with fat. 8 For the LORD has a day of vengeance, A year of recompense for the cause of Zion. 9 Its streams will be turned into pitch, And its loose earth into brimstone, And its land will become burning pitch. 10 It will not be quenched night or day; Its smoke will go up forever. From generation to generation it will be desolate; None will pass through it forever and ever.
I can’t quite pin down my thoughts here. If you talk to me very much, you will figure out this is common enough. I have read your response, though, and have thought about it. I have posted here where I’m at with it.Oh, and good thought about Paul and being in the Spirit. (I mean when Paul charges Timothy before God, Jesus, and the angels.) I think that is what you meant, but you could also mean that John was observing in Rev in the Spirit on the Lord's day. Also, it could be a reminder of how Timothy should try to stay pure for the Day.

 

[RND]

(B'midbar;11260)
RND, it is not my style to seek someone out on another board, but thank you for the suggestion.
Sorry, didn't mean to cramp your "style." I just thought it might be better to ask your questions directly to whom you question rather than rely on someone to speak for another.
About the word enopion, I just realized I made your life difficult by typing it as enopios. Sigh. Anyway, enopion is in the other verse that I gave. It is translated as “before” in the KJV in 1 Tim 5:21. So it is an example of the usage of that word. Look in the Greek and you will see it is there. So you know, usually I will have given a verse in the most recent version of the NASB, though not always.That verse (1 Tim 5:21) sort of reminds me of the second coming, because both Jesus and the angels are mentioned, and I associate that combination of two words with judgment.
No biggie.
Wow. In investigating the smoke of torment going up forever, it really made me want to crack a joke in poor taste about a “pleasing odor” (KJV sweet savour) to the Lord. That is an allusion to OT language about sacrifices made by fire. Well, I refrained from the joke!, but when I went to look up stuff about smoke rising in Isaiah, right there I found sacrificial language. Language about fat, blood, lambs, and goats. I’d never noticed that. Here is where I mean:
I guess if you "think it" you might as well "say it."Proverbs 23:7For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he: Eat and drink, saith he to thee; but his heart is not with thee.Jeremiah 17:9The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
I can’t quite pin down my thoughts here. If you talk to me very much, you will figure out this is common enough. I have read your response, though, and have thought about it. I have posted here where I’m at with it.
I see.
Oh, and good thought about Paul and being in the Spirit. (I mean when Paul charges Timothy before God, Jesus, and the angels.) I think that is what you meant, but you could also mean that John was observing in Rev in the Spirit on the Lord's day. Also, it could be a reminder of how Timothy should try to stay pure for the Day.
I meant to say John, my bad.

 

[Bamp;#39;midbar]

(RND;11266)
Jeremiah 17:9The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
I think you are rebuking me, but I am not sure. Tone is difficult to judge with no voice. I apologize for any offense. I agree that deceitful things come out of our hearts. That is why I squelched my thoughts and did not try to make a joke. Still, I thought it was cool how God can use an event like us struggling within ourselves at 10am to later on bring things to our notice at 6pm that we would have passed over otherwise. I’ve read that Isaiah passage before, but not really noticed the sacrificial language. I was rather happy to notice it and to have opportunity to wonder about it. It was not my intent to be abrasive.

 

[Tyrel]

(RND;11200)
I linked to four separate web sites. Which article and from which site were you refering?No to both suppositions.My issue is the false teaching of "eternally burning hell."
I think the problem is the lack of understanding of the words used in the scriptures.First, let's make one thing clear; the soul, psuchē, can die, and does die in hell. {Matthew 10:28}Second, the word Hell is a doctrinal construction much like 'Trinity'. In scripture, the words used are 'Sheol' 'Hades' 'Gehenna' 'Tartarus' and the 'Abyss'. {note; Sheol is part of these, as Ezekiel 32:21-24 make clear as they 'bear' their shame. Also, the word is readily translated 'Hades' in the Septuagint, though I don't know about Aquila's. Interestingly; Sheol is a Hebrew word with no known origins and without any parrallels in any other languages.} Now, for the greatest and most detrimental misunderstanding; Eternal and Infinite are not synonymous. Infinite is indicative of parameters and limits. Though infinite is not bound by limits, it is by definition the 'overstepping of all limits'. So, Infinite in Math is an 'unendingly' [couldn't find the right word there] large or small number. In time; Infinite means that it is 'never-ending'.Eternal describes what simply 'IS' and whatever is Eternal is not effected by causality, which only makes itself available with 'Time'. God is Eternal, which is why he calls himself 'Yaweh' {meaning 'I AM'}.Eternal is not 'never-ending'. Eternal isn't even within 'Time' at all. Eternal is outside of time... scratch that; Eternal is VOID of time.So, Eternal bliss; the kingdom of heaven, is available 'now'. Look up 'Kingdom of Heaven' and 'Kingdom of God' in your Bibles {particularly Luke 17:21} and do a study of all the passages. It's not 'the heavens', but is the Eternal* union with God. {How else was it being proclaimed by the apostles? They weren't going around talking about the afterlife, they were preaching Christ plainly and powerfully. How could those parables be indicative of the afterlife?} *Remember; Eternal not Infinite.So, Hell, is not the Infinite torture of souls, but is rather the Eternal Destruction of souls. A study of Gehenna will show that this is the Valley of Hinnom, where the Evil spirits in rebellion to God were to be judged and destroyed {Jeremiah 7:32}.So, Hell is the destruction of the 'being'. This is why it's called the 'second Death'. It's not death of your hope. It's not death of your humanity. It's the death of all that you are.~Shalom Elechem

 

[Joyful]

The Bible says whoever believes in Jesus shall not perish but have eternal life.Jesus is not saying non-believers will be live in hell and tortured forever. He is saying non-believers will perish. we have to remember that God is Just, fair, love and marciful. He is not revengeful monster. Eternal hell fire is out of God's charactor.

 

[RND]

(Biblical Tetragramaton;11361)
I think the problem is the lack of understanding of the words used in the scriptures.First, let's make one thing clear; the soul, psuchē, can die, and does die in hell. {Matthew 10:28}Second, the word Hell is a doctrinal construction much like 'Trinity'. In scripture, the words used are 'Sheol' 'Hades' 'Gehenna' 'Tartarus' and the 'Abyss'. {note; Sheol is part of these, as Ezekiel 32:21-24 make clear as they 'bear' their shame. Also, the word is readily translated 'Hades' in the Septuagint, though I don't know about Aquila's. Interestingly; Sheol is a Hebrew word with no known origins and without any parrallels in any other languages.} Now, for the greatest and most detrimental misunderstanding; Eternal and Infinite are not synonymous. Infinite is indicative of parameters and limits. Though infinite is not bound by limits, it is by definition the 'overstepping of all limits'. So, Infinite in Math is an 'unendingly' [couldn't find the right word there] large or small number. In time; Infinite means that it is 'never-ending'.Eternal describes what simply 'IS' and whatever is Eternal is not effected by causality, which only makes itself available with 'Time'. God is Eternal, which is why he calls himself 'Yaweh' {meaning 'I AM'}.Eternal is not 'never-ending'. Eternal isn't even within 'Time' at all. Eternal is outside of time... scratch that; Eternal is VOID of time.So, Eternal bliss; the kingdom of heaven, is available 'now'. Look up 'Kingdom of Heaven' and 'Kingdom of God' in your Bibles {particularly Luke 17:21} and do a study of all the passages. It's not 'the heavens', but is the Eternal* union with God. {How else was it being proclaimed by the apostles? They weren't going around talking about the afterlife, they were preaching Christ plainly and powerfully. How could those parables be indicative of the afterlife?} *Remember; Eternal not Infinite.So, Hell, is not the Infinite torture of souls, but is rather the Eternal Destruction of souls. A study of Gehenna will show that this is the Valley of Hinnom, where the Evil spirits in rebellion to God were to be judged and destroyed {Jeremiah 7:32}.So, Hell is the destruction of the 'being'. This is why it's called the 'second Death'. It's not death of your hope. It's not death of your humanity. It's the death of all that you are.~Shalom Elechem
Great thoughts. Good post.

 

[logabe]

(Biblical Tetragramaton;11361)
I think the problem is the lack of understanding of the words used in the scriptures.First, let's make one thing clear; the soul, psuchē, can die, and does die in hell. {Matthew 10:28}Second, the word Hell is a doctrinal construction much like 'Trinity'. In scripture, the words used are 'Sheol' 'Hades' 'Gehenna' 'Tartarus' and the 'Abyss'. {note; Sheol is part of these, as Ezekiel 32:21-24 make clear as they 'bear' their shame. Also, the word is readily translated 'Hades' in the Septuagint, though I don't know about Aquila's. Interestingly; Sheol is a Hebrew word with no known origins and without any parrallels in any other languages.} Now, for the greatest and most detrimental misunderstanding; Eternal and Infinite are not synonymous. Infinite is indicative of parameters and limits. Though infinite is not bound by limits, it is by definition the 'overstepping of all limits'. So, Infinite in Math is an 'unendingly' [couldn't find the right word there] large or small number. In time; Infinite means that it is 'never-ending'.Eternal describes what simply 'IS' and whatever is Eternal is not effected by causality, which only makes itself available with 'Time'. God is Eternal, which is why he calls himself 'Yaweh' {meaning 'I AM'}.

[quote]Eternal is not 'never-ending'. Eternal isn't even within 'Time' at all. Eternal is outside of time... scratch that; Eternal is VOID of time[/quote].

So, Eternal bliss; the kingdom of heaven, is available 'now'. Look up 'Kingdom of Heaven' and 'Kingdom of God' in your Bibles {particularly Luke 17:21} and do a study of all the passages. It's not 'the heavens', but is the Eternal* union with God. {How else was it being proclaimed by the apostles? They weren't going around talking about the afterlife, they were preaching Christ plainly and powerfully. How could those parables be indicative of the afterlife?} *Remember; Eternal not Infinite.So, Hell, is not the Infinite torture of souls, but is rather the Eternal Destruction of souls. A study of Gehenna will show that this is the Valley of Hinnom, where the Evil spirits in rebellion to God were to be judged and destroyed {Jeremiah 7:32}.So, Hell is the destruction of the 'being'. This is why it's called the 'second Death'. It's not death of your hope. It's not death of your humanity. It's the death of all that you are.~Shalom Elechem
Great thoughts. Good post.

Great post...just to add some food for thought,in John 3:15,That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have [color="#8B0000]eternal[/color] life. The word "eternal" in the (Greek #166)is aionios, which means an age, just to keep it simple. Now,let's read it like a greek speaking person wouldtranslate it.That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have age-abiding life. What in the worldam I talking about?Just exactly what RND is saying...there is no timein eternity...so what Jesus was really saying, mostof us miss.He was saying if you truly believe...you will notperish to the AGE or STAY IN THE GRAVE in the FirstResurrection. You will have "LIFE EARLY" instead ofwaiting until after the Tabernacles Age. What does that mean? It simply means you will be livingamong people with mortal bodies while you will have yourimmortal body. You will have access to eternity but youwill also have access to "TIME".Age-abiding life brings a whole new horizen to a personwhen God alluminate"s them to see it...He has laid out these AGES just for you.So, when you see eternity, ever, forever, world, foreverand ever ext., most of the time it is talking about anaionios or "age-abiding" life and in the negative it isan age-abiding Judgment.Logabe