The Law has not been done away with, hence "I did not come to abolish the Law", and even Paul himself said, "we uphold Law". You cannot toss out the Law that reveals everything that is sin, otherwise you will walk blindly and not know what you must stop doing!
Every Believer Must Do Good Works and Proclaim the Gospel, Some Are Called to Teach
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The Law has not been done away with, hence "I did not come to abolish the Law", and even Paul himself said, "we uphold Law". You cannot toss out the Law that reveals everything that is sin, otherwise you will walk blindly and not know what you must stop doing!
Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. (Romans 3:31 [NIV])
Already read it. Upholding the law becuase of faith . Is not keeping the law. The law was perfect. But man could not keep it. So it brought death. Christ did fulfull the law because you cant. Can you? No you cant. So we dont keep the law. Paul says if you go under one part of the law you go under it all. He telling you, that you can not keep the law. And we dont have to.
So let me get this straight, because a murderer has committed murderer in the past, which is forbidden in the Law, he can now go ahead and continue murdering because of faith? LOL. That's pretty much what you are implying in trying to toss out the Law, which Jesus Christ said he did not come to abolish, and Paul said that we, of the faith, uphold. You cannot throw out the Law that defines everything that is sin. The Law will indeed be done away with, but only when this heaven and earth vanishes, not before, for while sin still exists, Law will still exist. Do not be foolish.
"But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." Matt 12:36-37
For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." Matt 12:36-37
No you said a murderer can do that . I never. See here is part of your problem/ You are not quoting what people say. and then you add in what YOU think they said. Then you believe they said it. Thats thre or four times now you told me what I said. and the fact is you said it not me.
I'm not adding what I think you said, I am adding to what you are implying by what you are saying. The Law is not just some random book, it is a set of commands that define what is sin. Which sins? For example, "thou shall not murder". So by you saying that the Law is discarded, you are implying that "thou shall not murder" is discarded, which is not so. Murder was sin then, and it is still sin now, because the Law that defined it has not been abolished. By discarding the Law, you essentially become lawless, to whom Jesus Christ will one day say, "depart from me, you workers of lawlessness".
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aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Indeed.
Perhaps you are gaining an understanding of how frustration can sometimes impede a loving response.....
pia
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I think you will come to realize that many here are trying desperately to perfect themselves in the flesh, and actually believing that they can do this.....It makes it so much sadder, when they try to do this, by putting other people down, such a contradiction in their 'walk' with Him.......What they seem to miss all together, is that we cannot walk with Jesus, if we are not walking WITH Him and many simply do not do so.....We have to learn to agree with Him as we cannot walk with Him if we are of a different mind, and we won't get far, if we are constantly having our backs to Him.
Bless you for trying to keep the peace here, but I think you will find it quite an impossible task, others have tried also....
And when communication is not really possible...
"To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:" Ecc 3:1
"... a time to keep silence, ..." Ecc 3:7
Richard_oti
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Pro 17:27 He that spareth his words hath knowledge; And he that is of a cool spirit is a man of understanding.
Pro 17:28 Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise; When he shutteth his lips, he is esteemed as prudent.
Thus, why it would behoove me to remain silent!
"For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them." Matt 13:15
The law will always exist and the lawyers will always be condemend by it, funny how it says
1Ti_1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayer
and all the lawyers speak of is sin....laying stumbling blocks before Gods children, and He speaks of foolishness.....
bbyrd009
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ha. fwiw we have a passage about this, that is somewhat hard to contemplate, i can't say i totally get it, but it runs along the lines of "let your peace come back to you," meaning imo that regardless of appearances, our peace should not get taken from us. Meshak et al did not lament the dearth of peace, as they were being tossed into the furnace, iow, because they had peace, despite the appearances
Marymog
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Thank you Helen.I have actually opted out of this thread because of name calling...by the OP'er to people who disagree with him....but that is all 'water under'...
We'd be foolish to believe that there is not a plumb line to live by.
What I was trying and failing to get said was:-
Legalism is not the way. Is there salvation without the "you must's"..we know there is. The thief on the cross is an obvious one....
My point is...that God is a heart searcher. He looks for motivation . We know all the stories.
Luke 18 9-14
"The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess...( I give my money, I feed the homeless blah blah blah)
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other.."
Why? God saw the HEART and the motivation of the actions.
People as our friend here 'christiang' is condemning people on this site saying that we all don't do all the "you must' things...he says , therefore we are not Christians...and will reap our reward .. ( if you have read this whole thread you'll see that)...yet he knows none of us, !!
How can anyone judge fruit which they cannot SEE?
In the churches, we can see the legalistic church people who will go up to a new convert , pounce on them and say.. " You must...you must cut your hair, you must read your bible this many hours each day...you must give your money, you must feed the homeless...if you listen to pop music "you must" stop. If you watch lots of TV you must stop...and you must get out there and do lots of works for God. Mary, truthfully in my early church days I saw this done over and over by people like 'chritiang'.
They dump a load of rules upon the person before they even get started!
Yet in another church the wise people see the need of changes in a person's life..and...but amazingly they do NOT tell them that "they-must, do a list of things to have a christian walk with God. do that.."
No, some go quietly before the Father in secret, and PRAY for God's Holy Spirit to nudge a person and show them the things that He would like to see changed.
Like the Pharisee ...there he was, doing all the things 'he proudly listed' before God to impress Him and in an effort to show God just how righteousness he was...God did not give a fig about his proud self-righteous list of "doings".....But God saw the humble tax collector's heart, and it was where God wanted it to be.
Now, do we do the things in God's heart for the lost, hungry,or aged and sick... of course we do...but we do not do them because "we must"..we do them because God is in us and His love cannot help but flow through us to others.
Sorry Mary. But I will always challenge condemning " you must's".
God has given us the wonderful OPPORTUNITY to do all these things .....from the heart. And that, ...He sees.
In no way am I trying to change your mind in what 'you' believe.
But I will not sit under anyone who presents a legalist way for others to become "righteous" !
What each of us do, and how we live our lives is our business before the Lord.
But to try and bring other people down under what 'you' have chosen to believe is wrong. That is God's business.
BTW..That 'you' there, is not meaning 'you' personally
Anyway...I only came back into this thread to answer you.
God Bless....Helen
I better understand what you are trying to convey. Just a few suggestions on another way to look at some of the passages of scripture you referenced:
The thief on the cross was saved by grace that is why Jesus said to him today you will be with me in Paradise. The thief on the cross is the exception to the "must do", not the rule. The rule book, the things scripture says we "must do" to be saved, was not thrown out in that example. I think you would agree that Jesus is able to give the grace of salvation if we are unable to obtain it through ordinary means; baptism, good works, obeying the Ten Commandments etc. That is what happened to the good thief.
The Luke 18 passage you mentioned, in all fairness, should be fully quoted. At the end of that parable it tells us what we are supposed to learn from it; "For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.” It says nothing about how God saw the HEART and the motivation of their actions. However, I believe that can be inferred. It speaks of being humble and not exalting yourself. Being humble is an action; it is something we MUST DO according to scripture. The point of that passage was to tell us to be humble and not brag about all the good things we are doing. That passage wasn't about, as you suggested, God not giving a fig about the good things the Pharisee did do.
God does "give a fig" about the things we are doing, good or bad. Matthew 5 has a list of things we must do. Matthew 25:37-40 says whatever we do the least of our brothers we did it to Him. We must obey the Ten Commandments or we will loose our salvation. Do some churches take it to far and tell us you must cut your hair, you must read your bible this many hours each day, you must give your money, you must feed the homeless, you must stop listening to pop music.....etc. etc? Yes, some churches do take it to far. That does not nullify the legitimate "must do" things in scripture.
The Church that does not have a list of things we "must do" (or must not do) is not being a good Shepard to their flock. The leaders of that church don't sound so "wise" to me. Is that really a church? Or is it just a group of people gathering together and giving their points of view about scripture and telling everyone at the gathering, "the Holy Spirit told me something totally opposite of what it told you about that passage". Who has the authority to properly interpret Scripture so that we know the rules or the "must do" things we are to live by so that we are assured eternal salvation in paradise?
Thank you for clarifying that the "you" was not personal. I initially took it personal.
Thank you for taking the time to answer me.
IHS...Mary
Helen
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Thank you Mary for you detailed post.
I can see what you are saying..( because for a couple of decades I too believed that) so I do understand. Yet we are left having to disagree agreeably.
Because I just can't live there any more.You said- "God does "give a fig" about the things we are doing, good or bad. Matthew 5 has a list of things we must do. Matthew 25:37-40 says whatever we do the least of our brothers we did it to Him.
The one who WILL "give a fig" about our actions as we walk this world "in His name" and represent Him to mankind...is US!!
When we all stand before the Lord it is our works which will be tried of what sort it is- 1 Cor 3:13 "Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is."
If you read all of 1 Cor ..you'll see that for the redeemed it is all about position and rewards. Nothing to do with initial salvation, that is already secure. Any works we do 'through God' and His leading us...has everything to do with gifts and rewards in the kingdom.
That is why I contend when people say " it shows that you are not a Christian if you don't do these things".
Not true at all. All it shows is that the person was interested in getting saved and a ticket to heaven...but not interested in "Following the Lord"
These are stunted, barren christians, and what Paul calls " Carnal Christians" only fit for milk not meat.
But Mary, not trying to change you mind...just starting what I believe.
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