Everything else in James except 2:17-26

[FHII]

So what about the rest of the epistle other than the debate on works and faith?

James was dealing with a situation similar to Paul's problems with the Corinthians. Not the same thing, but a similar one.

Laying aside the few verses where James tries to associate works with faith.... What about the rest?

 

[H. Richard]

So what about the rest of the epistle other than the debate on works and faith?

James was dealing with a situation similar to Paul's problems with the Corinthians. Not the same thing, but a similar one.

Laying aside the few verses where James tries to associate works with faith.... What about the rest?

The book of James was written to the Jews who were under the law of Moses. (James 1:1)

To apply what James said to those under the law, to those under grace, causes confusion because Law and grace does not mix. A free gift is not free if you work for it.

 

[mjrhealth]

The book of James was written to the Jews who were under the law of Moses. (James 1:1)

To apply what James said to those under the law, to those under grace, causes confusion because Law and grace does not mix. A free gift is not free if you work for it.

Amen

 

[KingJ]

A free gift is not free if you work for it.

What scripture says salvation is a free gift? It is unattainable. Without His grace those who work for it will not receive it.

 

[H. Richard]

What scripture says salvation is a free gift? It is unattainable. Without His grace those who work for it will not receive it.

You asked and I will supply;

Rom 5:15-17
15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.
16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification.
NKJV

 

[KingJ]

You asked and I will supply;

Rom 5:15-17
15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.
16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification.
NKJV

This does not say salvation is a free gift. The free gift is salvation now being attainable. What was once unattainable is now attainable. Those who got themselves into Abrahams bosom in the OT could now be with God because of the free gift.

IE We still need to have the same mind those in the OT had with regards to getting ourselves into AB over Hades.

 

[mjrhealth]

This does not say salvation is a free gift. The free gift is salvation now being attainable. What was once unattainable is now attainable. Those who got themselves into Abrahams bosom in the OT could now be with God because of the free gift.

IE We still need to have the same mind those in the OT had with regards to getting ourselves into AB over Hades.

gift/ɡɪft/

noun

1. a thing given willingly to someone without payment; a present.
2. a natural ability or talent.

verb

1. give (something) as a gift, especially formally or as a donation or bequest.

If we have to pay for or earn it, than it is no longer a gift, as it says here

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

As Abrahams Faith was counted to him as righteousness, he believed God.

 

[KingJ]

1. Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
2. Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
3. As Abrahams Faith was counted to him as righteousness, he believed God.

1. 'Worketh' for the unattainable to be attainable. Not to attain the attainable. Please re-read post # 6.

2. We just need to add 1 Cor 12:3 and Jer 17:10 to this for context as the devils believe James 2:19. IE we can only '''believeth on Him'' by revelation from God / the Holy Spirit 1 Cor 12:3 / Matt 16:16-17. This happens only after we have our mind and heart judged Jer 17:10 / open the door to Jesus Rev 3:20. We only pass / open the door if we hate what is evil and cling to what is good Rom 12:9, John 3:19.

IE Anyone continuing in mortal sin hates God. IE We are known by our works. We judge ourselves by our works. We are not God that can see perfectly inside a heart and mind.

3. As I have said to you many times now we always need to explain exactly what faith / belief Abraham had. Abraham was a man after God's heart. He hated what is evil and loved what is good. His works showed this. He only put His faith in God because He loved and approved of His ways. IE scripture may as well say God judged his heart and mind and was happy with it.

To assume it was his ability to believe the unseen is seen is as insane a twisting of scripture as is possible. This is what you are proposing when you do not qualify the faith Abraham had. People that believe like this are mentioned in Matt 7:22. People after God's heart with works to prove it are mentioned in James 1:27.

 

[mjrhealth]

To assume it was his ability to believe the unseen is seen is as insane a twisting of scripture as is possible

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Heb 11:2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

He believed God, David was a man after Gods own Heart, look at what he did, yet God still kept His promise.

Act_13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.

 

[KingJ]

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Heb 11:2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

He believed God, David was a man after Gods own Heart, look at what he did, yet God still kept His promise.

Act_13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.

I don't think you are fully grasping the open door to the devil in your statements. I agree with the second half of your post. But again....on faith....

Do you think Pharaoh did not believe God would send the next plague? I am sure his faith in the next plague / believing God, was perfect. So how would you explain the difference between the faith of the two? Or the belief of Abraham vs the devils mentioned in James 2:19.

God was very clear to Abraham that if he walked in sin he would lose the promises. Gen 17:1 I am God Almighty; walk before me faithfully and be blameless. 2. Then I will make my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers.

 

[mjrhealth]

I don't think you are fully grasping the open door to the devil in your statements.

The devil is in all the unbelief. You should read about David. God doesnt break His promises. He is not like man, According to the majority of the posts on this forum and most others. God cannot save us so we have to do it ourselves. Do you think it was not sin when He slept with His servant at his wifes request because she didnt believe God would provide, Yet God still allowed her to become pregnant and Kept His promise to Abraham.

Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

 

[lforrest]

When you let your presuppositions affect your understanding of the bible your doing it wrong.

 

[mjrhealth]

When you let your presuppositions affect your understanding of the bible your doing it wrong.

When peopel try figure it our for themselves and dont ask Christ, they get it wrong.

This bit

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

or this

Joh_16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

or this

1Jn_2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

That was teh whole purpose of the Holy Spirit, to be led by Him.

Joh_6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

 

[lforrest]

But when you ask yourself, "does this fully mesh with my understanding of OSAS," isn't that a presupposition?

Presuppositions such as these are what lead many prophets into error. So are you immune to error in understanding the gentile lead of the Holy Spirit, when the prophets of old were not immune though they had great visions?

 

[mjrhealth]

Doent have to mesh with anyones understanding it must agree wtih God and teh truth since Jesus is teh truth.

 

[KingJ]

The devil is in all the unbelief. You should read about David. God doesnt break His promises. He is not like man, According to the majority of the posts on this forum and most others. God cannot save us so we have to do it ourselves. Do you think it was not sin when He slept with His servant at his wifes request because she didnt believe God would provide, Yet God still allowed her to become pregnant and Kept His promise to Abraham.

Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Gen 17:1-2 must be read with Rom 11:29.If you read vs 30-32 it is interesting to hear how God has ''bound everyone over to disobedience so that He may have mercy on them all''. Now you need to clarify if you are taking a Calvinistic view of Rom 11:29-32 or not. Or rather a universalism view. As the context of your use of Rom 11:29 seems to be so.

Look at the devil. He was appointed as the covering cherub. The highest position / honor among all the angels. Yet he fell and lost it all. Was it God's will that he fall? If so, why promote him? If we don't attempt to play God / grasp His omniscience we see that it is simply a case of the devil acting / losing out on promises from God due to his free will to choose to be evil / sin. Just as Gen 17:1-2 is a warning to Abraham.

If you were a judge would you say Abraham was a lost sinner when he slept with his servant? Any human with more then half a working brain can discern what drove Abraham. Much more God.

As for David, I assume you are referring to his mortal sins. Murder and adultery. Well yes they are mortal sins. But he repented. He also did not continue in them. We are faultless and blameless before God OT and NT when our hearts desire is to hate what is evil and cling to what is good Rom 12:9. What you and Richard do not grasp is that Psalm 51:17 applied to all OT. Heart condition counting for something before God is not a NT thing.

 

[mjrhealth]

Well for one I am not a learned man so the only view i can take is Gods view, yes you know the bible well, know its time to get to know God, Remeber Saul Pharisee of Pharisee, he knew the Torah was consideered a very learned man, didnt know Jesus, you know this bit

Act 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
Act 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

God is not a man to break his promises since in teh very beginning He saw what we would do. Go do something that suprises God, you cant He has seen the end from the beginning so I will trust in Him who already knows His plan for me.

 

[KingJ]

God is not a man to break his promises since in teh very beginning He saw what we would do. Go do something that suprises God, you cant He has seen the end from the beginning so I will trust in Him who already knows His plan for me.

Well this seems like a very Calvinistic statement. Your hatred of evil matters for naught because God chose you in Him from the day you were born...? BTW I am not sure what your point is in comparing me to Paul. Are you proposing I don't know God? I am killing fellow Christians? What I do know is that genuine love is to hate what is evil and cling to what is good Rom 12:9 VS believing the '''unseen is seen''' ;).

As for God's omniscience, I think it is absolute insanity to profess to grasp anything about God other then His love. We can grasp the definition of omniscience. But can we truly grasp God's omniscience? If you can well then you must have one hell of a good explanation for how He came to be? We can understand how something is created, but can we grasp how God is created?

I believe you grasp the dictionary definition of omniscience but fail completely on grasping its application to our God. God is as good as He is omniscient. Hence He can never / it does not exist in Him to ever be evil with omniscience. So any ''creating one from a lump of dishonor unto dishonor'' is completely possible by a god ...but NOT by our God. David grasped this. This is why his statement in Psalm 136:1 is so significant, ''Give thanks because God is good''.

So there is a good chance that God does not know the choices you are going to make. IE He is as omniscient as is possible / as it does not conflict with Him choosing to be ''good''.

 

[mjrhealth]

Well this seems like a very Calvinistic statement. Your hatred of evil matters for naught because God chose you in Him from the day you were born...? BTW I am not sure what your point is in comparing me to Paul. Are you proposing I don't know God? I am killing fellow Christians? What I do know is that genuine love is to hate what is evil and cling to what is good Rom 12:9 VS believing the '''unseen is seen''' ;).

How you read all that in one simple statement I have no idea...