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Featured Evidence of a great doctrinal apostasy:

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by H. Richard, Oct 3, 2019.

  1. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

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    This is the background of Christ's instruction to Gentiles (through Paul) during the dispensation [age] of grace.

    1 Cor 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me [Paul], as a wise masterbuilder, “”I”” have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon...

    1 Cor 4:14-16 For I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you. For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus “”I”” have begotten you through the gospel. [the Kingdom Gospel? No, the Grace Gospel? Yes.] Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers [of whom? All the apostles? No...] of “”me“”. For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of “”my”” ways which be in Christ, as I teach everywhere in every church.

    1 Cor 11:1-2 Be ye followers of “””me,””” even as I also am of Christ. Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances as [who? Peter? John? James? No...] I delivered them to you.

    Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given [to who? All the apostles equally? No...] to me for you...

    Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil [Gr. pleroo, complete] the word of God;

    Finally...

    2 Tim 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard from me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
    ***

    Looking at the record of history...did "faithful men" continue Paul's teaching? ------ Judge for yourself after examining the doctrines that cropped up soon after the apostolic era.

    THE LORD'S SUPPER

    Three of the "church fathers" --Ignatius, Justin, and Irenaeus--said the Lord’s Supper had some positive mystical influence on your spirit and physical body when you ate it. Ignatius went as far as to call the bread “The medicine of immortality and the antidote that we should not die but have life forever in Jesus Christ.”

    These folks weren’t into transubstantiation as we know it, but they had an early form of it (more like consubstantiation).

    QUESTION: Is that what Paul taught?

    Paul clearly taught that it’s a memorial (1 Cor 11:23-26)...an important, solemn memorial, yes, but it’s still just bread and wine with no mention of any mystical presence of the Lord. So who was right -- these early church "fathers," or Paul?

    SALVATION, SUFFERING AND PERSERVERENCE

    Ignatius longed for animals to tear him to bits because he seemed to have believed that suffering and martyrdom would prove his Christianity and ensure his salvation. He seems to have exhibited an attitude of "I must endure to the end to be saved." While Kingdom saints under the law had to believe such dreadful truths (Matt. 24:13), Paul never did.

    THE MYSTERY

    Did Ignatius really have a grasp on the Mystery? He knew that the body of professing believers was comprised of Jews and Gentiles, but that was a fact clearly evident even to unbelievers. As to Paul's Mystery, he saw it as something else entirely:

    "Ye are associates in the mysteries with Paul, who was sanctified, who obtained a good report, who is worthy of all felicitation..." (Eph. 12)

    That's as close as can be found that Ignatius got to mentioning Paul's mystery revelation. But he did go into detail on this:

    "And hidden from the prince of this world were the virginity of Mary and her child-bearing and likewise also the death of the Lord---three mysteries to be cried aloud--which were wrought in the silence of God." (Eph. 19)

    Ignatius did not have a clue regarding the Pauline revelation, judging by what he wrote. Yet he considered the virgin birth and the death of Messiah to have been hidden from Satan. But they weren’t hidden, for both were prophesied in the O.T. What WAS hidden from Satan (and from the whole world) was the full scope of the Cross (1 Cor 2:6-8), which was not known until Christ revealed it to Paul as part of the Mystery. Timothy knew it. Titus knew it. The Ephesians knew it. But Ignatius appears to never have understood it. That scope being that through the atonement work of the cross mankind can be saved by the grace of God based on faith in what God (Jesus) did on the cross to pay for their sins.

    WATER BAPTISM

    This early doctrinal slide is most grossly evident when one examines these writer's opinions of water baptism. Ignatius wrote:

    "It is not lawful apart from the bishop either to baptize or hold a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve, this is well-pleasing also to God; that everything which ye do may be sure and valid." (Smy. 8)

    "Let your baptism abide with you as your shield... (Poly. 6). Elsewhere he said, "...as your arm..."

    What Ignatius meant by "shield" is clear - it's a reference to defense, possibly spiritual armor. However, Paul gave water baptism no such significance. Ignatius is paving the way for a ritualistic, salvational approach to baptism [i.e., Rome's] which is with us to this day, especially when he says only the bishop can perform it or approve of it.

    Justin also said that one could believe but wasn’t actually saved until he/she was dunked. That’s a form of baptismal regeneration, from as early as 150 A.D. (some say they used the terms “baptism” and “regeneration” interchangeably). But did Paul EVER teach this? No! These Gentile philosophers sound far more familiar with Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38 than with Eph 4:5.

    NOTE: The point of this post is that all this doctrinal confusion happened within ONE GENERATION of Paul, the Apostle to the Gentiles and dispenser of the mystery. Not 100 years after his death, gross doctrinal distortion had already set in and the Church believed, and practiced a mix of two dispensations, law and grace, as well as things not even found in the Bible.

    One thing is certain from what I’ve read -- the Asian fathers largely failed to acknowledge the uniqueness of the revelation Christ gave to Paul. Why? Because, as Paul himself wrote, Asia had already turned away from him even while he was yet alive. Those in Asia were even then “turning aside unto myths.” These church “fathers,” with their compounded mythical doctrines, are only the fruit of the apostasy that began in the first century before Paul died.

    2 Tim 1:15 (NKJ)
    15 This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.

    Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
    Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

    This is exactly what happened: from among the Gentile believers of Asia, false teachers DID arise, DID speak perverse things and DID draw away disciples unto themselves. All within 100 years of Paul's death.


    *********rebuttals.

    The mindset of every Roman Catholic I've ever met can easily be translated, "If my church doesn't teach it, it isn't true. And if my church isn't right, then nobody is." How convenient it must be when your thinking has already been done for you.

    It is a historical fact that the early church "fathers" (in whom everyone, both Catholic and protestants, puts WAAAAAY too much stock) departed seriously from Pauline doctrine according to Paul's plainest statements, which I provided in the original post on this thread. But those of both the OC and the RCC ignore those statements, which I expected. I really didn't post any of this for you since you are forbidden to accept it. I posted it for those out there who might actually crack open their Bibles to see what it says, rather than relying on what some institution says it says.

    Incidentally, those of the RCC and OC would do well to dispense with the term "anti-Catholic" as if helpless little old Catholics are being bashed left and right. If you want to resort to that tired label, I need only remind you that your alleged throne of Peter is piled high upon the skulls of men, women and children who would not bend to the will of popes and paid for it with their lives. For almost a thousand years the RCC and the OC church was very much "anti-everyone who is not Catholic," most especially Bible-only believers like myself.

    *From a Catholic: How can you explain that every Church started by an apostle or one of their representatives all over the ancient world came up with the same Faith?
    The Christians from Spain, Gaul Rome, Greece, North Africa, Palestine, Ethiopia and India all believe essentially the same way. All had bishops, priests and deacons. All had a sacramental system. All believed in the true presence of Christ in Holy Communion. All venerated Mary and the Saints. All pray for the dead in Christ.

    CONTINUED
     
  2. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

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    *From a Catholic: How can you explain that every Church started by an apostle or one of their representatives all over the ancient world came up with the same Faith?
    The Christians from Spain, Gaul Rome, Greece, North Africa, Palestine, Ethiopia and India all believe essentially the same way. All had bishops, priests and deacons. All had a sacramental system. All believed in the true presence of Christ in Holy Communion. All venerated Mary and the Saints. All pray for the dead in Christ. They all look at Clement, Ignatius, Ireneaus, Polycarp and the other's whose writings you declare heresy as Saints and venerate them. All of ancient Christianity is wrong but your group is right. Yea that is likely, not...

    And every one of them - sooner or later - came up with a salvation system that required whatever works and rituals they said were necessary...even though Paul said we're declared righteous by God because of His grace alone, thru our faith alone, without works.

    Paul was taught his gospel, personally, by Jesus, and not from any man.

    Gal 1:11-12
    11 But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man.
    12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.
    (NKJ)

    Show me another biblical example of a person who was 'personally' taught by
    Jesus Christ ( in His ascended body ). He ascended to heaven after 40 days and 40 nights. However He came back, after that time, and gave Paul the gospel of God's grace.

    Paul was definitely unique, and received information that others were not able to
    'bear'.

    The mystery of the 'one body of Christ' (that some have referred to as the 'one'
    true church' etc) is not named 'Roman Catholic' or 'Orthodox' or any other such
    name. It is a church made by God, built by God, and contains all who believe in Christ.

    It's that simple. (Funny, but it really is that simple. It is founded in Christ, not Peter.)

    Funny, but people miss that in Paul's letter to the Romans, He never says "Oh... and say hi to Peter for me!" in his salutations. Why? Cause Peter wasn't there. I have seen no record at all, in the Bible scriptures, that Peter actually visited Rome at any time.

    The church "of His body" is made by God. Christ is the head. The Christians are the body. Real simple.

    Here is, perhaps, food for thought: we notice in history the gathering that Jesus began then all of a sudden it goes blank during the dark ages, then later in time what emerges of what we call Christianity, well...IS IT REALLY TRUE CHRISTIANITY? I don't think so.

    Those in the RCC and OC can say their church is the only one and has it's roots in the Apostles until they are blue in the face and it proves nothing. They fail to provide hard evidence, or primary sources, proving that the Apostles adhered to Catholic doctrine and that early Catholics such as Polycarp and Ireneaus got their doctrinal beliefs from the Apostles.

    They have not demonstrated that St. Polycarp, St. Iranaeus, or any of their "church fathers" self-identified as "Catholics" were ever taught by an Apostle (the 12).. They are simply transliterating a Greek word that means "universal" in English as "catholic" and revising true history to fit their traditions.

    Those in the RCC and the OC will never admit that any of what I write because it undermines their belief system. They cannot prove their belief system with out using Catholic sources or traditions and will refuse to try.

    Their's is a hollow claim. If they really believe what they say then they should present the evidence for their belief system. Provide information which doesn't come from Catholic tradition or sources.

    Every statement in the replies by those in the RCC and OC is an assumption based on Catholic Church sources. No Catholic or Orthodox has been able to prove that their traditions came from the Apostles, that their early church fathers were Catholics, or that these church fathers taught what is modern Catholic and Orthodox tradition.

    All they have done is post self-validating apologetics, not facts from independent and unbiased sources.

    This fact remains, those in the RCC and the OC, will never be able to see their church as an apostate church because they will never admit it can be wrong. Yet the scriptures plainly tell us that the churches of men will become apostate, that there will be a great falling away from the faith.

    II Th 2:2-3
    2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
    3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
    (NKJ)

    ******More rebuttals

    Orthodoxy said:
    Richard,

    Let me get this right, Dick. God in the fulness of time never intentioned to saved gentiles but in His wisdom He knew the jews were stubborn so He initially took the message to the Jews. When they rejected Him God changed His mind and sot to make the Jew envious of the gentiles by saving the gentiles through Paul's message and forsaking Israel, for a time?

    CONTINUED
     
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  3. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

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    Orthodoxy said:
    Richard,

    Let me get this right, Dick. God in the fulness of time never intentioned to saved gentiles but in His wisdom He knew the jews were stubborn so He initially took the message to the Jews. When they rejected Him God changed His mind and sot to make the Jew envious of the gentiles by saving the gentiles through Paul's message and forsaking Israel, for a time?

    **My comment: A smoke screen. God had always provided a way for the Gentiles. Under the Jewish Law, Gentiles could be saved by going through the Jews. Salvation was through the Jews and was not offered outside of the Jews. Gentiles had always been included as Jewish proselytes. But it was not the same as in this age of God's grace where all, both Jews and Gentiles, are saved the same way, by faith in what

    God has done on the cross. As for God changing His mind, obviously you do not believe Paul when he said his gospel (of god's grace) WAS HIDDEN IN GOD AND REVEALED TO HIM.

    **My comment: In Gen 12:3 we see that the Gentiles who bless the nation of Israel shall be blessed along with the nation of Israel. This is why Cornelius was given salvation in Acts 10. The writer of Acts said much about the things that Cornelius did for the Jews.

    **My comment: As for God changing His mind read this. Notice that in Acts 3:21 Peter is proclaiming things made known by the prophets since the world began. In contrast, in the book of Romans, 16:25, Paul is proclaiming things kept secret since the world began. Something made known cannot be a secret and something kept secret has not been made known. Clearly, Peter and Paul proclaimed two different messages. God had this new plan of grace and kept it a secret. It was not a change of mind as you wish to say it is.

    Can you also explain to me why Jesus made the positions the Apostles held eternal if as you say the Aposltes dont have the gospel message?

    ***My comment: Surely you know that the 12 Apostles will sit on 12 thrones during the rein of Christ on this earth. They are to build His church during the 1000-year rein of Christ on this earth. But since the Jews rejected Jesus God has instituted His plan that He had kept hidden since the world began. The plan for Israel and the Jews have been put on hold until the time of the Gentiles has been fulfilled.

    The cancerous disease comes from people changing the meaning of words and people not reading words properly. Personally, I endeavor to word things as precisely as possible, if people cant read or read to much into what people say who’s fault is that the writer or the reader? I also strive to read every word in others people’s posts because I expect the same from those people.

    ***My comment: the only cancerous disease I see is a physical, organized Church, ran by men, that wants to put itself between God and man. It usurps the power of God (the Holy Spirit) on earth. They deny that the Holy Spirit is at work in the world to save all that will believe. They put their church in the place of the Holy Spirit.

    NOW TELL ME THAT I SHOULD BELIEVE IN AN ORGANIZED RELIGION AND ATTEND A RELIGIOUS CHURCH!
     
  4. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    To the contention that we ought to follow after only Paul, let me say clearly that Paul himself told people not to do that.

    1Co 1:11, For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
    1Co 1:12, Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
    1Co 1:13, Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
    1Co 1:14, I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

    1Co 3:1, And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
    1Co 3:2, I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
    1Co 3:3, For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
    1Co 3:4, For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
    1Co 3:5, Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
    1Co 3:6, I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

    This is a biblical attitude, though I think Ignatius may have taken it too far if he thought that that meant to desire martyrdom.

    Mat 10:22, And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

    Mat 24:13, But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

    Heb 3:6, But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

    Heb 3:14, For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;


    These things are written in holy scripture and are therefore profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2019
  5. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Not "everyone".

    ;)
     
  6. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    Why would Catholics try to prove their belief system without half the authority God gave us, unless they were caught in the Protestant trap of proving Catholicism using Protestant standards. We are not a Protestant, we are Christian.
     
  7. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Since the majority of Christians as not Catholics, you have a serious dilemma. You must either come right out and say that the rest of the Christians are all bogus, or you must admit that Catholicism is False Christianity, and it's time to get out of that system.
     
  8. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    the only falsity I see here is your dichotomy
     
  9. Grailhunter

    Grailhunter Well-Known Member

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    1.What caused this?
    2. How can we correct this?
    3. After 2000 years our efforts has only lead to divisions in the church. Why?


    It is only logical to assume that all attempts to understand the truth has failed.

    So what have we done wrong? What have they all done wrong?

    The humorous side of it is, people will stand up and say, "I am right, or my church has it right!" And that claim can be echoed thousands of times, from all directions!

    So we are back to the question; What caused this?
     
  10. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    There is nothing new under the sun. . . .
     
  11. FHII

    FHII Well-Known Member

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    Well, I gotta problem H. Richard... I can probably endorse you on these points, but you seem to refuse what Paul said about attending Church. And not that it's a big problem with me (cause I don't care), you call me a pharasee and say I agree with modern Churches, when the fact is I simply quoted the Bible and what Paul said!

    So, brother... You understand James and Peter be and their roles... You understand Grace at least 90%. But you pick and choose what you believe Paul said and while not calling be by name, have associated me with Pharisees and the demonations. All while I actually spoke truth and gave Pauline scripture to back it, while you gave no rebuttal.

    So, I am a bit frustrated with you and your lack of consistency. I probably could aid you in this stance, but I see fault in your overall stance. And that fault is that you don't follow everything Paul laid out, as far as I can see.

    A little Leven does what?

    If you want or care for my support, we will have to settle some issues.
     
  12. Philip James

    Philip James Well-Known Member

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    Hello H. Richard,

    Thank you for pointing out the orthodox catholic teaching of those who learned these things directly from the apostles and from the communities they established.
    And how contrary they are to those who hold some kind of divisiom between Paul and the other apostles.

    The Church is ONE!

    Peace!
     
  13. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Active Member

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    ---I'm neither Catholic nor Protestant, I have strong disagreements with both.

    ---Paul was water baptized himself to wash away his sins Acts 22:16; he water baptized others 1 Cor 1:14-16 and taught the necessity of water baptism, Rom 6; 1 Cor 1; Gal 3; Col 2 etc.

    Paul never said salvation was by faith alone but required repentance, confession and baptism to be saved (Acts 26:29; Rom 6; Rom 10; etc ) he says "God forbid" to the idea that salvation is by grace alone in Rom 6. Paul did say works of merit and works required by the OT law of Moses cannot save but did say time and again obedience to the will of God does save Rom 6:16; Romans 10:3; etc...
     
  14. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

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    Seems to be a conflict here.

     
  15. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

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    The answer is simple. Mankind loves religion (things they do to look sinless). It is a fact that mankind will always resist the Holy Spirit and go about doing what they think will save them. They refuse to place their faith in what Jesus has already done on the cross.

    In the O.T. it is said that to trust in men is folly. As the O.P. pointed out mankind did not follow Paul's gospel but went away into myths.

    Some say we are to accept what the religious church's of today teach but they always say it must teach what they believe. If their belief is based on man then they will not ever know the truth.

    Although there are those that promote the churches as as THE CHURCH the scriptures do not agree. When Jesus said """HE""" would build His church He certainly did not mean man would build His church. The true church today is not a physical, man organized, and ran man.

    The true church is spiritual, not physical.

    Religion = Organized groups of people professing certain religious beliefs and having a hierarchy of leadership. The leadership determines their religious beliefs based upon their interpretation of their reference book writings (the Bible or similar book) and doctrine studies.

    Christian is a label and is used by many who may, or may not be a child of God..

    Child of God = A person who is personally trusting that God loves him and sent his son, Jesus Christ, into the world to die on a cross for his/her sins. A person that trusts God to save and keep him/her just as Abraham did. (Read Romans 4:1 8) A child of God is a person that has been reborn (filled) with God's Holy Spirit by God Himself. Jesus describes a true child of God in John 3:7 & 8; 7: Do not marvel that I said to you, 'you must be born again.' 8. The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit

    Church = The Church is a "Spiritual Church" (spiritual house 1 Peter 2:4 5) (Mark 14:58) (Acts 17:23 25) (2 Cor. 5:1) (Heb 9:11 and 24) made up of children of God.. Since it consists of 'born again people' (see above) the true Church is as Jesus described a born again person in John 3:8.

    John 3:8 NKJV
    8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

    Therefore, the Church is a spiritual entity, made by the will of God and built without human hands of flesh, and the head of the Church is Jesus Christ who gave his life for it. I, personally feel that no man is to be considered as head of the Church. The Church's visibility in the world is shown through people that profess that faith in Jesus‘ work on the cross has saved them, individually and as groups. It is not a religious organization, or building, or certain place. Read LUKE, 17:20 "The Kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, nor will people say, here it is, or there it is, because the kingdom of God "is" within you.
     
  16. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

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    Throwing out the word obedience does not say anything unless obedience is defined.

    Just what do you claim is obedience to the will of God. I see obedience to God is believing in the work of His son on the cross.
     
  17. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    @H. Richard Evidence of doctrinal apostasy is seen when so called evangelical leaders seem to think nothing of making common cause with those who hold to unbliblical doctrines or who deny the very truths which they as so called evangelical leaders are supposed to be upholding. Yes, there was apostasy in the first centuries AD, but there is plenty of it also within so called evangelicalism today.
     
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  18. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Correct. It is hard to understand how so-called evangelicals and fundamentalists can dilute or reject Bible truth and the teachings of the Word of God. But I believe this all started when Billy Graham -- a staunch fundamentalist -- decided to join hands with the Catholic Church (several decades ago) in his crusades, and failed to inform the world that the CC is in fact apostate.
     
  19. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    He says "God forbid" to the idea of taking God's grace for granted...while the verses previous...in chapter 5...show clearly that God's grace is both extravagant and scandalous; and that where sin abounded grace did abound.

    You have to be misinterpreting that scripture because otherwise Paul is contradicting himself: Paul is clear that works don't save, primarily in Ephesians 2:8-9. Since obedience translates into works, it should be clear that obedience is works and therefore does not save.

    When Paul tells the people to be a follower of "me" he is not telling them to be a follower of "only me"...otherwise Paul is contradicting himself.
     
  20. Grailhunter

    Grailhunter Well-Known Member

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    I think I agree with most of that.
    How many religions/beliefs/churches do you think Christ intended to start?
     
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