Evidence To Be Seen

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Wrangler

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Let us take our helper and intercessor the Virgin Mary, Mother of God, so that she, who from the moment of her conception (21) overcame Satan may show her power over these evil sects, in which is revived the contumacious spirit of the demon, together with his unsubdued perfidy and deceit.

(21) Gen 3:15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

Lk 1: 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Lk 1:28 Hail Mary, full of grace!

It only by the power of the Holy Spirit thru the immaculate purity of Mary that the virgin-mother brings forth the Holy son of God!

OK. I'll ask her this weekend.
 

Wrangler

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It has been shown that many of those prophecies were disputed or not even about a 1st century messianic figure so that number is meaningless.

It's worth pondering the significance of Jesus fulfilling 356 prophecies even if some dispute they apply to him.
 

theefaith

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I wasn’t talking to you.

God is God for all eternity!

Miracle of miracles God became man!

God as conceived and born of a virgin!
God suffered, was crucified, and died in the cross for our salvation!
God rose again from the dead on the third day!
God ascended into heaven!
God will come again to judge the living and the dead!
Lk 1:37 For with God nothing shall be impossible

Because Jesus Christ is God!

The divinity of Christ and the holy trinity are Christian doctrines required for being Christian and for salvation!

1 Timothy 1:17
Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
 

amadeus

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The divinity of Christ and the holy trinity are Christian doctrines required for being Christian and for salvation!
Required? Even if both doctrines were true, where do you get the required from? Did any writer express that in the written scriptures so that anyone reading it would immediately understand it and take it to be true?

Please give me one verse that clearly says that.
Please do not post a page full of scriptures as your explanation.
 

theefaith

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Required? Even if both doctrines were true, where do you get the required from? Did any writer express that in the written scriptures so that anyone reading it would immediately understand it and take it to be true?

Please give me one verse that clearly says that.
Please do not post a page full of scriptures as your explanation.

jn 16:13
Jn 8:32
Eph 4:5
Jude 1:3


Athanasius Creed!
(From the early church)

Whoever desires to be saved must above all hold to the catholic faith.

Anyone who does not keep it whole and entire will doubtless perish eternally.

Now this is the catholic faith:

That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity, neither blending their persons nor dividing their essence. For the person of the Father is a distinct person, the person of the Son is another,
and that of the Holy Spirit still another.
But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.

What quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has. The Father is uncreated, the Son is uncreated, the Holy Spirit is uncreated.

The Father is immeasurable, the Son is immeasurable, the Holy Spirit is immeasurable.

The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal,
the Holy Spirit is eternal.

And yet there are not three eternal beings; there is but one eternal being.
So too there are not three uncreated or immeasurable beings, there is but one uncreated and immeasurable being.

Similarly, the Father is almighty, the Son is almighty, the Holy Spirit is almighty. Yet there are not three almighty beings;
there is but one almighty being.

Thus the Father is God,
the Son is God,
the Holy Spirit is God.
Yet there are not three gods;
there is but one God.

Thus the Father is Lord,
the Son is Lord,
the Holy Spirit is Lord.
Yet there are not three lords;
there is but one Lord.

Just as Christian truth compels us
to confess each person individually
as both God and Lord, so catholic religion forbids us to say that there are three gods or lords.

The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone. The Son was neither made nor created; he was begotten from the Father alone. The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten; he proceeds from the Father and the Son.

Accordingly there is one Father, not three fathers; there is one Son, not three sons;
there is one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.

Nothing in this trinity is before or after,
nothing is greater or smaller; in their entirety the three persons are coeternal and coequal with each other.

So in everything, as was said earlier,
we must worship their trinity in their unity and their unity in their trinity.

Anyone then who desires to be saved
should think thus about the trinity.

But it is necessary for eternal salvation
that one also believe in the incarnation
of our Lord Jesus Christ faithfully.

Now this is the true faith:

That we believe and confess
that our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son,
is both God and human, equally.

He is God from the essence of the Father,
begotten before time; and he is human from the essence of his mother, born in time; completely God, completely human, with a rational soul and human flesh; equal to the Father as regards divinity, less than the Father as regards humanity.

Although he is God and human,
yet Christ is not two, but one.
He is one, however, not by his divinity being turned into flesh, but by God's taking humanity to himself.He is one,
certainly not by the blending of his essence, but by the unity of his person.
For just as one human is both rational soul and flesh, so too the one Christ is both God and human.

He suffered for our salvation; he descended to hell; he arose from the dead; he ascended to heaven; he is seated at the Father's right hand; from there he will come to judge the living and the dead. At his coming all people will arise bodily and give an accounting of their own deeds. Those who have done good will enter eternal life, and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

This is the catholic faith:
one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully.

Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God of hosts!
Isa 6:3
 

Truth OT

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It's worth pondering the significance of Jesus fulfilling 356 prophecies even if some dispute they apply to him.
If they don't apply to him them the idea that he fulfilled them loses all relevance. Additionally, many lack specifics or supernatural prophetic substance that would demand the involvement of a power greater than man. Of the 356, can you share with me just 5 you see as the strongest so we can focus this discussion more?
 

Wrangler

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If they don't apply to him them the idea that he fulfilled them loses all relevance.

Hmmm. I wonder what it takes to make one consider the implications of a man fulfilling a prophecy some claim pertain to someone else?

Additionally, many lack specifics or supernatural prophetic substance that would demand the involvement of a power greater than man.

Regarding specifics, I agree but also keep in mind that lacking specifics is not a disqualifier.

Regarding a power greater than man; I am a unitarian Christian. It means I consider only the Father to be God. Jesus is a man, like you and me. I reject dualism, the claim he is fully man and fully God is repugnant to logic.

Still, things happened to him that is supernatural. And the power he was given was supernatural.

Of the 356, can you share with me just 5 you see as the strongest so we can focus this discussion more?

Interesting question. Please start another thread for that purpose. This thread was meant to merely compile the Evidence to Be Seen, not debate it. Thanks. And have a great day!
 

Wrangler

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The theory of facilitated variation challenges irreducible complexity. The theory of facilitated variation challenges this idea of irreducible complexity by explaining how random mutation can cause substantial and adaptive changes within a species.

Here is your faith. No evidence to even rationalize calling it a theory. An actual theory requires evidence to support it.

Otherwise, anyone can just speculate who something not real causes something we observe. Again, just because the idea of facilitated variation challenges irreducible complexity does not make it valid. There are 1,000's of cases in the fossil record of life forms that did not have a competitive advantage went extinct. Where is the evidence of specimen's of intermediate species with components of what is called irreducible complexity body parts? Non-existent.

This is the basic problem of Darwinists; there is NO EVIDENCE of transitionary species. The missing link is not just along the human tree of development but missing links across nearly every tree of higher life forms.
 
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amadeus

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jn 16:13
Jn 8:32
Eph 4:5
Jude 1:3


Athanasius Creed!
(From the early church)

Whoever desires to be saved must above all hold to the catholic faith.

Anyone who does not keep it whole and entire will doubtless perish eternally.

Now this is the catholic faith:

That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity, neither blending their persons nor dividing their essence. For the person of the Father is a distinct person, the person of the Son is another,
and that of the Holy Spirit still another.
But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.

What quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has. The Father is uncreated, the Son is uncreated, the Holy Spirit is uncreated.

The Father is immeasurable, the Son is immeasurable, the Holy Spirit is immeasurable.

The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal,
the Holy Spirit is eternal.

And yet there are not three eternal beings; there is but one eternal being.
So too there are not three uncreated or immeasurable beings, there is but one uncreated and immeasurable being.

Similarly, the Father is almighty, the Son is almighty, the Holy Spirit is almighty. Yet there are not three almighty beings;
there is but one almighty being.

Thus the Father is God,
the Son is God,
the Holy Spirit is God.
Yet there are not three gods;
there is but one God.

Thus the Father is Lord,
the Son is Lord,
the Holy Spirit is Lord.
Yet there are not three lords;
there is but one Lord.

Just as Christian truth compels us
to confess each person individually
as both God and Lord, so catholic religion forbids us to say that there are three gods or lords.

The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone. The Son was neither made nor created; he was begotten from the Father alone. The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten; he proceeds from the Father and the Son.

Accordingly there is one Father, not three fathers; there is one Son, not three sons;
there is one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.

Nothing in this trinity is before or after,
nothing is greater or smaller; in their entirety the three persons are coeternal and coequal with each other.

So in everything, as was said earlier,
we must worship their trinity in their unity and their unity in their trinity.

Anyone then who desires to be saved
should think thus about the trinity.

But it is necessary for eternal salvation
that one also believe in the incarnation
of our Lord Jesus Christ faithfully.

Now this is the true faith:

That we believe and confess
that our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son,
is both God and human, equally.

He is God from the essence of the Father,
begotten before time; and he is human from the essence of his mother, born in time; completely God, completely human, with a rational soul and human flesh; equal to the Father as regards divinity, less than the Father as regards humanity.

Although he is God and human,
yet Christ is not two, but one.
He is one, however, not by his divinity being turned into flesh, but by God's taking humanity to himself.He is one,
certainly not by the blending of his essence, but by the unity of his person.
For just as one human is both rational soul and flesh, so too the one Christ is both God and human.

He suffered for our salvation; he descended to hell; he arose from the dead; he ascended to heaven; he is seated at the Father's right hand; from there he will come to judge the living and the dead. At his coming all people will arise bodily and give an accounting of their own deeds. Those who have done good will enter eternal life, and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

This is the catholic faith:
one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully.

Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God of hosts!
Isa 6:3
Thank you for showing where you stand anyway. I have heard it all before and it does not sway me. I still see in that and in other things what, I believe, men have done.

Men have been working on half measures for centuries in order to have their cake and eat it too. That is to say, they want the blessings of God without giving up all of their own wants.

Paul expresses here where we Need to be. Memorizing the Bible or any cited creed will not get us there:

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." Rom 12:1-2
 

theefaith

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Hmmm. I wonder what it takes to make one consider the implications of a man fulfilling a prophecy some claim pertain to someone else?



Regarding specifics, I agree but also keep in mind that lacking specifics is not a disqualifier.

Regarding a power greater than man; I am a unitarian Christian. It means I consider only the Father to be God. Jesus is a man, like you and me. I reject dualism, the claim he is fully man and fully God is repugnant to logic.

Still, things happened to him that is supernatural. And the power he was given was supernatural.



Interesting question. Please start another thread for that purpose. This thread was meant to merely compile the Evidence to Be Seen, not debate it. Thanks. And have a great day!

unitarian, interesting
What else do they believe
 

theefaith

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Here is your faith. No evidence to even rationalize calling it a theory. An actual theory requires evidence to support it.

Otherwise, anyone can just speculate who something not real causes something we observe. Again, just because the idea of facilitated variation challenges irreducible complexity does not make it valid. There are 1,000's of cases in the fossil record of life forms that did not have a competitive advantage went extinct. Where is the evidence of specimen's of intermediate species with components of what is called irreducible complexity body parts? Non-existent.

This is the basic problem of Darwinists; there is NO EVIDENCE of transitionary species. The missing link is not just along the human tree of development but missing links across nearly every tree of higher life forms.

also no evidence for there eons

God does not do things without a purpose

and eons of evolution is purposeless and meaningless especially when all things are possible with God Lk 1:37 he could have and did create all things the way they are and the way he intended
 

theefaith

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Thank you for showing where you stand anyway. I have heard it all before and it does not sway me. I still see in that and in other things what, I believe, men have done.

Men have been working on half measures for centuries in order to have their cake and eat it too. That is to say, they want the blessings of God without giving up all of their own wants.

Paul expresses here where we Need to be. Memorizing the Bible or any cited creed will not get us there:

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." Rom 12:1-2

Jn 10:16 one new covenant church all others are man made sects the tradition of men and lead to many evils and errors of modern man for example

Socialism / naturalism is the fruit of the reformation! As well as modern atheism: reason apart from revealed Divine faith!
And
Fundamentalism: faith apart from reason!

These are the modern errors and the fruits of the so called reformation!

All of these are rebelling against Christ and his church, and against family, society, and civil government!
And again all proper authority!

The reformation is only an extension of Satan’s rebellion against God, Christ and His holy church!

The so called reformation is an evil tree putting forth Posionous fruit!

Doctrines of devils leading to rebellion against all Divinely revealed authority!

Protestant rebellion against the divinely instituted authority of the church!
Fundamentalist rebellion against reason!
Atheist rebellion against faith!
Socialism rebellion against marrige, and family, the fabric of society!
Communism rebellion against the divinely instituted authority of civil government, God given rights, and private property!

All the bitter fruits of the so called reformation! Better known as the great rebellion!

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Lk 1:38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

Mary brought forth the good fruit of salvation!
 

GaryAnderson

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Good thread. You’re looking for evidence?
The high points for me are:

1. Fined tuned universe.
2. Objective morality
3. Jesus Christ lived among us 2000 years ago.
 

GaryAnderson

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On point number 2, William Lane Craig does a great job here when debating with atheists.
I have read several of his articles and I can post a long PDF here if you’re interested but here’s a short 5 minute video instead.

On point number 3, an interesting support case (we can choose hundreds of other people or scholars or historians) is a case of an Atheist journalist who wanted to disprove Jesus and the resurrection. In the process he found the evidence so overwhelming for the existence of Jesus and resurrection that he turned into a Christian instead.
His name is Lee Strobel.
Lee Strobel - Wikipedia
There’s a movie made about him and he has several documentaries in YouTube.

Generally speaking, even Wikipedia which is a left-leaning atheist site, confirms the existence of Jesus and says that those who don’t accept it are part of a “fringe group” or extremists.
 
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