Every translation we have is, well, a translation. KJV is a translation. All of them are translated from another language.
Exodus 19...confused
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Every translation we have is, well, a translation. KJV is a translation. All of them are translated from another language.
I checked the original Hebrew as well as various other translations. The NIV got it wrong. Young's Literal Translation and most others are in line with the original Hebrew word.
Yes, only Moses was ready!
Then comes our Jesus, a greater than Moses if you will, to make it possible for us to get ready to actually go up higher as we are called and as we are lifted up. They could only approach to the foot of the mountain, but we cleansed and clothed by and through the Holy Spirit and the Word of God can go in and not be cast out into outer darkness [to die for even touching the mountain] for our presumption when we are NOT ready.
Finally we are bid to come...
"Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage." Matt 22:9
No one among the multitudes of Israel given that call to climb the mountain, but Moses. Now many are given that call:
"And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
For many are called, but few are chosen." Matt 22:11-14
Someone was growing! Eventually, Joshua would be ready to take the place of Moses. We, now today, should be growing to take the place of Jesus here:
"As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world." John 9:5
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father." John 14:12
"Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid." Matt 5:14
Yeah, I had it wrong. The people, when the long blast sounded, could approach the mountain, but had to worship from a distance. My translation could have used better words than "then they may go up on the mountain."
Oh my gosh...numbers 16. The rebellion of Korah. This has echoed down and Korahs very words are repeated today - you have taken it too far! All of us are holy and God is with us all...no distinction made between what is holy and what is not. No distinction between righteousness and holiness...we are in the rebellion of Korah. That is exactly where we are. No fear...I'm almost scared to read further.
While what was portended may be here, that does not mean that each us must be joined to him in his rebellion. Many died then, but not the whole congregation. Not even the whole congregation died before entering the Promised Land. There is hope!
And now I am reading about Moses striking the rock. It always strikes me as a touch of arrogance in Moses. After all he had seen of what happens to those who don't do what God says, he didn't do what God said but went beyond what God said...God said, speak to the rock. He struck the rock....
But...I could almost bet that I've read elsewhere he WAS told to strike the rock...no time to look it up now, tsk. Off to work.
I also need to remember to look up a verse that says something like...you will once again distinguish between what is holy and what is not.
But you know, God has been telling of it for a very long time, with all of the very particular instructions. He has always made a distinction.
I also need to remember to look up a verse that says something like...you will once again distinguish between what is holy and what is not.
But you know, God has been telling of it for a very long time, with all of the very particular instructions. He has always made a distinction.
Interesting passage; reminds me also of the Transfiguration.
Arrogance, yes, perhaps we could call it that.. or pride?
[Sometimes maybe we, you and I, get so full of ourselves because of what God has shown us and then believing we know just exactly what God wants accomplished, we get angry on God's behalf; we forge ahead on our own initiative and in our blind zeal... we strike our Lord, Himself, two times even! Did we cover up his eyes first or was it our own eyes that were covered? (see Luke 22:64)]
This from such a meek man?
" (Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth.)" Num 12:3
Moses knew so much, had been given so much knowledge and authority by God, so much that only for that one time in which he tempted God he lost access to the Promised Land. For so many others it took ten times. To whom did God show more mercy?
"Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice;
Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it:...
Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that w11ere numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, which have murmured against me,
Doubtless ye shall not come into the land, concerning which I sware to make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun." " Num 14:22-23, 29-30
"But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." Luke 12:48
Still clear as mud, right? Arrogance shown that one time and reward lost... He was chastised surely as father chastises his disobedient his son that he loves, but it was not the end, not for Moses it wasn't, not from what we see...
"And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus." Mark 9:4
The whole thing raises perhaps even more questions in us, does it not? When will we ever be fit to stand as judges in the place of God against anyone?
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8-9
This has nothing to do with my thread here. A friend of mine posted this and encouraged reading it even though she said it makes you feel horrible and convicted. She said the end is like jumping into a soothing aromatherapy bath. But to me, the end is awful. Where is the asking for what you lack? Where is the wrestling with God for the blessing?
He perfectly describes us. He knew himself and his weakness. But he seems to not know anything of the power of God.
John Newton to the Earl of Dartmouth
February, 1772.
My Lord—I have been sitting, perhaps a quarter of an hour, with my pen in my hand, and my finger upon my upper lip, contriving how I should begin my letter. . . . At length my suspense reminded me of the apostle's words, Galatians 5:17, "For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh. These are contrary the one to the other—so that you cannot do the things that you would!" This is a humbling but a just account of a Christian's attainments in the present life, and is equally applicable to the strongest and to the weakest. The weakest need not say less—the strongest will hardly venture to say more. The Lord has given his people a desire and will aiming at great things; without this they would be unworthy of the name of Christians; but they cannot do as they would. Their best desires are weak and ineffectual, not absolutely so (for He who works in them to will, enables them in a measure to do likewise)—but in comparison with the noble mark at which they aim. So that while they have great cause to be thankful for the desire He has given them, and for the degree in which it is answered—they have equal reason to be ashamed and abased under a sense of their continual defects, and the evil mixtures which taint and debase their best endeavors. It would be easy to make out a long list of particulars, which a believer would do if he could—but in which, from first to last, he finds a mortifying inability. Permit me to mention a few, which I need not transcribe from books, for they are always present to my mind.
He would willingly enjoy God in prayer. He knows that prayer is his duty; but, in his judgment, he considers it likewise as his greatest honor and privilege. In this light he can recommend it to others, and can tell them of the wonderful condescension of the great God, who humbles himself to behold the things that are in heaven, that He should stoop so much lower, to afford his gracious ear to the supplications of sinful worms upon earth. He can bid them to expect a pleasure in waiting upon the Lord, different in kind and greater in degree than all that the world can afford. By prayer he can say, You have liberty to cast all your cares upon him who cares for you. By one hour's intimate access to the throne of grace, where the Lord causes his glory to pass before the soul that seeks him—you may acquire more true spiritual knowledge and comfort, than by a day or a week's converse with the best of men, or the most studious perusal of many folios. And in this light he would consider it and improve it for himself. But, alas; how seldom can he do as he would! How often does he find this privilege a mere task, which he would be glad of a just excuse to omit! and the chief pleasure he derives from the performance, is to think that his task is finished! He has been drawing near to God with his lips—while his heart was far from him. Surely this is not doing as he would, when (to borrow the expression of an old woman here,) he is dragged before God like a slave, and comes away like a thief.
The like may be said of reading the Scripture. He believes it to be the Word of God: he admires the wisdom and grace of the doctrines, the beauty of the precepts, the richness and suitableness of the promises; and therefore, with David, he accounts it preferable to thousands of gold and silver, and sweeter than honey or the honeycomb! Yet, while he thus thinks of it, and desires that it may dwell in him richly, and be his meditation night and day—he cannot do as he would. It will require some resolution to persist in reading a portion of it every day; and even then his heart is often less engaged than when reading a newspaper. Here again his privilege frequently dwindles into a task. His appetite is vitiated—so that he has but little relish for the food of his soul.
He would willingly have abiding, admiring thoughts of the person and love of the Lord Jesus Christ. Glad he is, indeed, of those occasions which recall the Savior to his mind; and with this view, notwithstanding all discouragements, he perseveres in attempting to pray and read, and waits upon the ordinances. Yet he cannot do as he would. Whatever claims he may have to the exercise of gratitude and sensibility towards his fellow-creatures—he must confess himself mournfully ungrateful and insensible towards his best Friend and Benefactor. Ah! what trifles are capable of shutting Him out of our thoughts, of whom we say: 'He is the Beloved of our souls, who loved us, and gave himself for us, and whom we have deliberately chosen as our chief good and portion!' What can make us amends for the loss we suffer here? Yet surely if we could, we would set him always before us; his love would be the delightful theme of our hearts:
From morn to noon, from noon to dewy eve!
But though we aim at this good—evil is present with us: we find we are renewed but in part, and have still cause to plead the Lord's promise, to take away the heart of stone, and give us a heart of flesh.
He would willingly acquiesce in all the dispensations of divine Providence. He believes that all events are under the direction of infinite wisdom and goodness, and shall surely issue in the glory of God, and the good of those who fear him. He has no doubts that the hairs of his head are all numbered, that the blessings of every kind which he possesses, were bestowed upon him, and are preserved to him—by the bounty and special favor of the Lord whom he serves! He fully believes that afflictions do not spring out of the ground—but are fruits and tokens of Divine love, no less than his comforts! He is sure that there is a need-be, whenever for a season he is in heaviness. Of these principles he can no more doubt, than of what he sees with his eyes; and there are seasons when he thinks they will prove sufficient to reconcile him to the sharpest trials.
But often when he aims to apply them in an hour of present distress—he cannot do what he would! He feels a law in his members warring against the law in his mind; so that, in defiance of the clearest convictions, seeing as though he perceived not—he is ready to complain, murmur, and despond! Alas! how vain is man in his best estate! How much weakness and inconsistency, even in those whose hearts are right with the Lord! and what reason have we to confess that we are unworthy, unprofitable servants!
It were easy to enlarge in this way—would paper and time permit. But, blessed be God, we are not under the law—but under grace! And even these distressing effects of the remnants of indwelling sin are overruled for good. By these experiences—the believer is weaned more from SELF, and taught more highly to prize and more absolutely to rely on Him, who is our Wisdom, Righteousness, Sanctification and Redemption! The more vile we are in our own eyes—the more precious He will be to us! A deep repeated sense of the evil of our hearts—is necessary to preclude all boasting, and to make us willing to give the whole glory of our salvation where it is due!
Again, a sense of these evils will (when hardly anything else can do it) reconcile us to the thoughts of DEATH! Yes, they make us desirous to depart that we may sin no more, since we find depravity so deep-rooted in our nature, that, like the leprous house, the whole fabric must be taken down before we can be freed from its defilement!
Then, and not until then—we shall be able to do the thing that we would! When we see Jesus—we shall be transformed into His image, and be done with sin and sorrow forever!
He perfectly describes us. He knew himself and his weakness. But he seems to not know anything of the power of God.
John Newton to the Earl of Dartmouth
February, 1772.
My Lord—I have been sitting, perhaps a quarter of an hour, with my pen in my hand, and my finger upon my upper lip, contriving how I should begin my letter. . . . At length my suspense reminded me of the apostle's words, Galatians 5:17, "For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh. These are contrary the one to the other—so that you cannot do the things that you would!" This is a humbling but a just account of a Christian's attainments in the present life, and is equally applicable to the strongest and to the weakest. The weakest need not say less—the strongest will hardly venture to say more. The Lord has given his people a desire and will aiming at great things; without this they would be unworthy of the name of Christians; but they cannot do as they would. Their best desires are weak and ineffectual, not absolutely so (for He who works in them to will, enables them in a measure to do likewise)—but in comparison with the noble mark at which they aim. So that while they have great cause to be thankful for the desire He has given them, and for the degree in which it is answered—they have equal reason to be ashamed and abased under a sense of their continual defects, and the evil mixtures which taint and debase their best endeavors. It would be easy to make out a long list of particulars, which a believer would do if he could—but in which, from first to last, he finds a mortifying inability. Permit me to mention a few, which I need not transcribe from books, for they are always present to my mind.
He would willingly enjoy God in prayer. He knows that prayer is his duty; but, in his judgment, he considers it likewise as his greatest honor and privilege. In this light he can recommend it to others, and can tell them of the wonderful condescension of the great God, who humbles himself to behold the things that are in heaven, that He should stoop so much lower, to afford his gracious ear to the supplications of sinful worms upon earth. He can bid them to expect a pleasure in waiting upon the Lord, different in kind and greater in degree than all that the world can afford. By prayer he can say, You have liberty to cast all your cares upon him who cares for you. By one hour's intimate access to the throne of grace, where the Lord causes his glory to pass before the soul that seeks him—you may acquire more true spiritual knowledge and comfort, than by a day or a week's converse with the best of men, or the most studious perusal of many folios. And in this light he would consider it and improve it for himself. But, alas; how seldom can he do as he would! How often does he find this privilege a mere task, which he would be glad of a just excuse to omit! and the chief pleasure he derives from the performance, is to think that his task is finished! He has been drawing near to God with his lips—while his heart was far from him. Surely this is not doing as he would, when (to borrow the expression of an old woman here,) he is dragged before God like a slave, and comes away like a thief.
The like may be said of reading the Scripture. He believes it to be the Word of God: he admires the wisdom and grace of the doctrines, the beauty of the precepts, the richness and suitableness of the promises; and therefore, with David, he accounts it preferable to thousands of gold and silver, and sweeter than honey or the honeycomb! Yet, while he thus thinks of it, and desires that it may dwell in him richly, and be his meditation night and day—he cannot do as he would. It will require some resolution to persist in reading a portion of it every day; and even then his heart is often less engaged than when reading a newspaper. Here again his privilege frequently dwindles into a task. His appetite is vitiated—so that he has but little relish for the food of his soul.
He would willingly have abiding, admiring thoughts of the person and love of the Lord Jesus Christ. Glad he is, indeed, of those occasions which recall the Savior to his mind; and with this view, notwithstanding all discouragements, he perseveres in attempting to pray and read, and waits upon the ordinances. Yet he cannot do as he would. Whatever claims he may have to the exercise of gratitude and sensibility towards his fellow-creatures—he must confess himself mournfully ungrateful and insensible towards his best Friend and Benefactor. Ah! what trifles are capable of shutting Him out of our thoughts, of whom we say: 'He is the Beloved of our souls, who loved us, and gave himself for us, and whom we have deliberately chosen as our chief good and portion!' What can make us amends for the loss we suffer here? Yet surely if we could, we would set him always before us; his love would be the delightful theme of our hearts:
From morn to noon, from noon to dewy eve!
But though we aim at this good—evil is present with us: we find we are renewed but in part, and have still cause to plead the Lord's promise, to take away the heart of stone, and give us a heart of flesh.
He would willingly acquiesce in all the dispensations of divine Providence. He believes that all events are under the direction of infinite wisdom and goodness, and shall surely issue in the glory of God, and the good of those who fear him. He has no doubts that the hairs of his head are all numbered, that the blessings of every kind which he possesses, were bestowed upon him, and are preserved to him—by the bounty and special favor of the Lord whom he serves! He fully believes that afflictions do not spring out of the ground—but are fruits and tokens of Divine love, no less than his comforts! He is sure that there is a need-be, whenever for a season he is in heaviness. Of these principles he can no more doubt, than of what he sees with his eyes; and there are seasons when he thinks they will prove sufficient to reconcile him to the sharpest trials.
But often when he aims to apply them in an hour of present distress—he cannot do what he would! He feels a law in his members warring against the law in his mind; so that, in defiance of the clearest convictions, seeing as though he perceived not—he is ready to complain, murmur, and despond! Alas! how vain is man in his best estate! How much weakness and inconsistency, even in those whose hearts are right with the Lord! and what reason have we to confess that we are unworthy, unprofitable servants!
It were easy to enlarge in this way—would paper and time permit. But, blessed be God, we are not under the law—but under grace! And even these distressing effects of the remnants of indwelling sin are overruled for good. By these experiences—the believer is weaned more from SELF, and taught more highly to prize and more absolutely to rely on Him, who is our Wisdom, Righteousness, Sanctification and Redemption! The more vile we are in our own eyes—the more precious He will be to us! A deep repeated sense of the evil of our hearts—is necessary to preclude all boasting, and to make us willing to give the whole glory of our salvation where it is due!
Again, a sense of these evils will (when hardly anything else can do it) reconcile us to the thoughts of DEATH! Yes, they make us desirous to depart that we may sin no more, since we find depravity so deep-rooted in our nature, that, like the leprous house, the whole fabric must be taken down before we can be freed from its defilement!
Then, and not until then—we shall be able to do the thing that we would! When we see Jesus—we shall be transformed into His image, and be done with sin and sorrow forever!
Anyway, I thought you guys would find that last post of Newtons letter interesting, so I briefly derailed my thread. But back to Exodus, and Korah.
In the wilderness, at every turn, they did not learn to trust God for their provision. They did not learn the obedience of trust that God counts as righteousness. Then, although they had not learned the obedience of trust, Korah led them in a revolt, convincing them they were all holy because God was with them all.
He convinced them that they were holy when they weren't even righteous...!
In the wilderness, at every turn, they did not learn to trust God for their provision. They did not learn the obedience of trust that God counts as righteousness. Then, although they had not learned the obedience of trust, Korah led them in a revolt, convincing them they were all holy because God was with them all.
He convinced them that they were holy when they weren't even righteous...!
I like to compare this event with Abraham, Isaac and the others at Mount Moriah. I think we see Isaac getting prepared to take Abraham's place in the world. I see Mount Moriah as both a physical mountain and a spiritual one. Genesis doesn't say who the two other men were; but Jewish tradition says it was Ishmael and Eliezer, and that sounds right to me. Genesis does say Abraham saw the mountain from afar; and I cite the tradition again since it says Abraham spotted a "cloud" over the mountain. I love it when Abraham told Isaac God would provide the lamb. Only Abraham and Isaac were allowed to ascend the mountain.
For a third time I cite the Jewish tradition that states the "Ram" caught in the thorn bush had existed before creation. If sin was going to exist as a result of giving men free will, God's plan included a way of correcting that; and thus this Ram had to exist from before Creation of anything else. That compares nicely to Revelation which describes the Lamb slain from the foundation. It compares to the crown of thorns placed on Jesus' head too.
Then the book of Hebrews tells us Abraham "looked" for a city. I think he found it that day on Mount Moriah -- in the Holy City where the Lamb is the Light.
John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
bbyrd009
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ha i dunno, v13 isnt exackly clear is it Exodus 19:13 Lexicon: 'No hand shall touch him, but he shall surely be stoned or shot through; whether beast or man, he shall not live.' When the ram's horn sounds a long blast, they shall come up to the mountain."
"then they may go up on the mountain." seems perf acceptable to me lol.
seems like something going on in that vein at v22 23 24, Moses saying "but?"
weird
Yeah, well it does say further on that Moses then led them to the mountain. Just not UP the mountain. They had laid out boundary markers.
But yes, its odd that God made Moses go down to again warn them not to break through the boundaries. But then, God knew their thoughts. Maybe they were discussing going up also...
But yes, its odd that God made Moses go down to again warn them not to break through the boundaries. But then, God knew their thoughts. Maybe they were discussing going up also...
Its a bit like...the mountain was the holy of holies...
bbyrd009
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well, you say "made" but Moses didnt go, right, but rather "reminded" God that that command had already been given?Then i guess it got like just dropped, kinda?
might not be pertinent, but when you are climbing a mountain, there really is no point at which you could say "i have left the plain; i have started climbing the mountain, i am now at the base of the mountain." v12 Moses was told to set a boundary tho, yeh.
Seems like the long blast was to call the ppl to the boundary though, thats all?
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