Exposition: Why "Absent From The Body/Present With The Lord" Doesn't Support Immortal Soul Doctrine

[Bible Highlighter]

Please, let's get something straight: the Bible only speaks of TWO, that is TWO, kinds of bodies that pertain to humans: the mortal and the resurrection. There is absolutely no mention of any "spiritual body" in death - what is said is that the mortal Body returns to dust, the Spirit returns to God as it was when It came forth from Him, and Soul which exists only as a consequence of the union of the two (Genesis 2:7 KJV) ceases to be.

The Rich Man and Lazarus is proven to be parabolic by this. The dead men mentioned therein are said to possess tongues, eyes, fingers, bosoms, etc. which no where in Scripture is established. If you have a verse which mentions your "spiritual body" idea which pertains during the intermediate state between wearing a mortal body in this life and a resurrection body in the next life, please post it.

1 Corinthians 15:44 KJV
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

 

[Phoneman777]

Then you should read the rest of the gospel, for the whole account is not only of the dead who live and then die, but also includes the dead who die and live.

True...but what about the "dead" in Ecc. 9? The context there cannot but make "dead" refer to being "literally dead" - it can't be referring to the figurative dead as when Paul tells us the sinful woman "is dead while she liveth".

Do you not know that Solomon the son of David was a foreshadow of the Son of David who became Christ and is God?

Yes, there are "types" of Christ all through the OT, which is Luke says "And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself".

"Moses and the prophets" refers to the OT.

 

[Phoneman777]

1 Corinthians 15:44 KJV
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

My friend, you're making my point for me!

The "spiritual body" is the body with which the righteous are raised...in the resurrection...when Jesus will raise us up "in the last day".

Only two, friend, only two

 

[Bible Highlighter]

My friend, you're making my point for me!

The "spiritual body" is the body with which the righteous are raised...in the resurrection...when Jesus will raise us up "in the last day".

Only two, friend, only two

Jesus said we be like the angels in heaven. Angels have spiritual bodies. Then there is another resurrection of the physical body. Both the spiritual resurrection and natural body resurrection is a part of the first resurrection.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

My friend, you're making my point for me!

The "spiritual body" is the body with which the righteous are raised...in the resurrection...when Jesus will raise us up "in the last day".

Only two, friend, only two

1. All faithful saints who die today go to Abraham’s bosom.

2. The Catching up (Rapture) is the spiritual body resurrection (Whereby we will be like angels) and meet Christ in the air and enter Heaven. This will happen for those who are in Christ in Abraham’s bosom, and those faithful who are alive.

3. There will be a gathering of the remaining Elect of the saints in the middle of the Tribulation by angels.

4. The natural body resurrection is in two phases. The first one begins at the Millennium. Those who were beheaded for Christ in the Tribulation will live and reign with Christ 1,000 years.

5. The second phase of the natural body resurrection happens after the Millennium. This will be the raptured saints. They don’t need to be tested again unlike those who went through the tribulation.

 

[Phoneman777]

Jesus said we be like the angels in heaven.

When?
"In the resurrection". Not a moment sooner.

Angels have spiritual bodies.

Yes, but will our spiritual bodies be just like theirs?
Since ours will "be fashioned like unto His glorious body" and "a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see Me have", the answer is a resounding "no".

Then there is another resurrection of the physical body.
Both the spiritual resurrection and natural body resurrection is a part of the first resurrection.

Just as Scripture knows only of two kinds of bodies - the "mortal" body and the "immortal" aka "spiritual" aka "glorious" aka "resurrection" body - so, the Scripture only knows of only two kinds of resurrections: the Resurrection of the Just and the Resurrection of the Damned.

 

[Phoneman777]

1. All faithful saints who die today go to Abraham’s bosom.

Abraham's bosom must be about 5 miles wide to accommodate all the dead saints from history in there!

2. The Catching up (Rapture) is the spiritual body resurrection (Whereby we will be like angels) and meet Christ in the air and enter Heaven. This will happen for those who are in Christ in Abraham’s bosom, and those faithful who are alive.

Oh, you mean the "rapture" when Job says "yet in my FLESH I shall see Him" when his "change comes"? When Paul says "we shall be changed" and those who are "mortal shall put on immortality"?

No such thing as a "spiritual resurrection" that doesn't involve the righteous putting on their immortal body.

3. There will be a gathering of the remaining Elect of the saints in the middle of the Tribulation by angels.

Peter says when Jesus comes "as a thief in the night" there won't be 7 more minutes down here, let alone a "last 7 years of tribulation" - not with a burned up atmosphere, burned up elements, burned up everything.

4. The natural body resurrection is in two phases. The first one begins at the Millennium. Those who were beheaded for Christ in the Tribulation will live and reign with Christ 1,000 years.

The Resurrection of the Just when the saints are raptured is at the Second Coming when all the saints will rise to eternal life, and the wicked will drop dead and join the rest of the dead of all ages in a thousand year dirt nap while Jesus and the saints spend that time "in My Father's house" judging and confirming God's condemnation of the wicked.

There won't be a single beheading of anyone after the saints are raptured.

5. The second phase of the natural body resurrection happens after the Millennium. This will be the raptured saints. They don’t need to be tested again unlike those who went through the tribulation.

No saint is raptured after the millennium - they're all raptured before the 1,000 years.

 

[ScottA]

I heard an old preacher who heard it from an old preacher illustrate the difference between "the time of the end" and "the end of time".

In the old days, people didn't buy a packaged turkey for Thanksgiving - they'd buy one alive. He'd be given all the food and water he wanted, and put in a cage where he'd be safe from all danger and predators...but also so he couldn't run around and run all the fat off! The turkey could hardly believe his good luck - he'd think he was really living! But, he was living in the "time of the end".

And, when that fateful day came, the farmer would go out to the cage and snatch that fat turkey up and swing that ax down on the chopping block, thus had come to pass "the end of time". So, the "time of the end" is that period just before "the end of time" and most "Christians" are oblivious to the danger they're in, getting fattened up with junk food sermons false doctrines instead of Bible truth, treasuring up "wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God.."

None of that takes away the namesake of Christ who referred to Himself as the End for a reason.

 

[ScottA]

True...but what about the "dead" in Ecc. 9? The context there cannot but make "dead" refer to being "literally dead" - it can't be referring to the figurative dead as when Paul tells us the sinful woman "is dead while she liveth".

Yes, there are "types" of Christ all through the OT, which is Luke says "And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself".

"Moses and the prophets" refers to the OT.

Okay...so you put it together there, but I am not sure you realize it. None of what was before was done without a reason, a precedence, a parable foreshadowing, including all of Solomon's life and words of wisdom. That is the context.

But if you insist on explaining things away because of context, then likewise the manna come down from heaven--surely was only food for the stomach, etc., etc..

 

[Phoneman777]

None of that takes away the namesake of Christ who referred to Himself as the End for a reason.

That same Christ said when He'd raise up people with their resurrection body: "in the last day"...at the end of time, which immediately follows the time of the end.

 

[Phoneman777]

Okay...so you put it together there, but I am not sure you realize it. None of what was before was done without a reason, a precedence, a parable foreshadowing, including all of Solomon's life and words of wisdom. That is the context.

But if you insist on explaining things away because of context, then likewise the manna come down from heaven--surely was only food for the stomach, etc., etc..

All I'm saying is that any text without the context is a PRETEXT which is no help to anyone.

In Ecc. 9, "dead know not anything" refers to "dead that are six feet under", not those that are "dead while they liveth" 6 feet above them.

Therefore, when Solomon says the dead don't know, see, hear, speak, praise God, feel emotions, plan, or anything else - any teaching that claims the dead are in heaven, knowing things, rejoicing, praising God, etc., is a false idea that contradicts Scripture.

 

[ScottA]

That same Christ said when He'd raise up people with their resurrection body: "in the last day"...at the end of time, which immediately follows the time of the end.

All I'm saying is that any text without the context is a PRETEXT which is no help to anyone.

In Ecc. 9, "dead know not anything" refers to "dead that are six feet under", not those that are "dead while they liveth" 6 feet above them.

Therefore, when Solomon says the dead don't know, see, hear, speak, praise God, feel emotions, plan, or anything else - any teaching that claims the dead are in heaven, knowing things, rejoicing, praising God, etc., is a false idea that contradicts Scripture.

As I said already, there are no dead in heaven.

Still you are struggling over what is meant by the end. The signs Jesus gave are not the end--He said that. But rather He is the End--He said that also. Little e big E, little end big End.

 

[Phoneman777]

As I said already, there are no dead in heaven.

Still you are struggling over what is meant by the end. The signs Jesus gave are not the end--He said that. But rather He is the End--He said that also. Little e big E, little end big End.

Look, I made this thread to explain why 2 Corinthians 5:8 KJV no support for "Immortal Soul" doctrine. I've shown why the Immortal Soul crowd has been ILLEGITIMATELY been using it as support for years, and that critically examining it as I've done proves they have done so.

So, just to turn the discussion back to the topic, if "naked" and "unclothed" cannot be referring to "spiritual nakedness" for the irrefutable reason I've given in the OP, then what only other CONTEXTUAL interpretation remains for them?

Contextually speaking, since "clothed upon" refers to "clothed in a body", then "naked" and "unclothed" cannot refer to anything else - contextually, hermeneutically, commonsensically - to the intermediate state of being clothed in a mortal body and clothed in a resurrection body which is "NOT clothed in a body" at all, resting in peace in the grave, lying naked, unclothed, without a body, dead, awaiting the resurrection which means at death we are not "present with the Lord", we are "present in the grave" awaiting the coming of the Lord.