Exposition: Why "Absent From The Body/Present With The Lord" Doesn't Support Immortal Soul Doctrine

[Phoneman777]

Verse by verse exposition in red of 2 Corinthians 5:1-8 KJV disproving the popular sentiment: "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord":

2 Corinthians 5:1-8 KJV​

[1] For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
(We know if our mortal body returns to dust, God has reserved for us an immortal, resurrection body.)

[2] For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
(Being subject to life's burdens in our mortal body "clothes", we desire to change into our resurrection body "clothes".)

[3] If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
(If we're clothed in our resurrection body, it's impossible for us to be found lying naked, without a body, in the grave, dead and waiting for the resurrection - because resurrection morning, when the saints put on their immortal, resurrection body, has gloriously come.)

"NAKED" ISN'T REFERRING TO THE WRETCHEDNESS OF "SPIRITUAL NAKEDNESS" AS PROVEN BELOW:

[4] For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
(While subject to life's burdens clothed in our mortal body, we groan for relief - not by resting in peace lying naked, unclothed, without a body, in the grave, dead and waiting for the resurrection - but for the relief our immortal, resurrection clothes provide.)

If Paul was referring to "spiritual nakedness", then how ridiculous of him to say: "We groan for relief from our burdens, but not by becoming lost and going to hell, but by putting on our resurrection clothes..."

Even a blind man can plainly see "naked" and "unclothed" can't possibly refer contextually or common sensically to "a lost spiritual condition" - but refers to that intermediate state between being clothed in our mortal and immortal bodies: lying naked, unclothed, without a body, in the grave, dead and waiting for the resurrection.

[5] Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
(The same God Who bought for us our resurrection clothes with the Gospel also gives us assurance by His Spirit.)

[6] Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
(We're always confident despite knowing if we're down here in our mortal body, we're not up there in our resurrection body.)

[7] (For we walk by faith, not by sight: )
(unless you're in the "left behind" crowd God unfairly allows to walk by sight while the rest of us have to by faith )

[8] We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
(We're confident [that our immortal, resurrection body is in reserve], and our preferencial desire is:

>to immediately strip off these mortal body clothes,
>to skip lying naked, unclothed, without a body, in the grave, dead and waiting for the resurrection,
>and to be present with the Lord resurrection morning wearing our resurrection, immortal clothes.)

Paul knew he wouldn't put on his immortal, resurrection clothes at death, but he himself says when he will in verse 10 - "For we must all appear before the Judgment seat of Christ" - at the end of time "at the last trump" when "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye" when "this corruptible shall put on incorruption and this mortal shall put on immortality". "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" is a false statement and a misquote of Scripture. Paul's saying it's his preference to be absent from this body, skip the waiting for the resurrection body, and immediately put on his immortality. I should be our hope, as well.

 

[Enoch111]

Verse by verse exposition in red of 2 Corinthians 5:1-8 KJV disproving the popular sentiment: "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord":

No it does not disprove the existence of the unperishable and eternal soul. Quite the opposite.

 

[ScottA]

Verse by verse exposition in red of 2 Corinthians 5:1-8 KJV disproving the popular sentiment: "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord":

Are you meaning to say that the scriptures or God is wrong in what is written, and you are right?

 

[Phoneman777]

No it does not disprove the existence of the unperishable and eternal soul. Quite the opposite.

Now that I think about it, I wish I would have titled it "Why...doesn't support Immortal Soul Doctrine".

I'll change it.

 

[Phoneman777]

Are you meaning to say that the scriptures or God is wrong in what is written, and you are right?

Hi, Scott, I changed the title from "disprove" to "support" which is actually along the lines of my original thinking but got a bit distracted earlier.

Perhaps I should point out that this is the popular yet inaccurate quote:

"To be absent from the body IS TO BE present with the Lord".​

Paul actually said:

"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, AND TO BE present with the Lord."​

The popular but erroneous quote makes the verse an "either/or" statement which demands we're continuously dressed in either mortal or immortal clothing and ignores the "naked" and "unclothed" state.

The correct quote is merely an expressive statement of a preference of one set of clothes over the other, which allows for the "naked" and "unclothed" to have its impact on the passage - which refers to resting in peace, lying naked, unclothed, without a body, in the grave, dead waiting for the resurrection.

What say you?

 

[thelord's_pearl]

Hi, Scott, I changed the title from "disprove" to "support" which is actually along the lines of my original thinking but got a bit distracted earlier.

Perhaps I should point out that this is the popular yet inaccurate quote:

"To be absent from the body IS TO BE present with the Lord".​

Paul actually said:

"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, AND TO BE present with the Lord."​

The popular but erroneous quote makes the verse an "either/or" statement which demands we're continuously dressed in either mortal or immortal clothing and ignores the "naked" and "unclothed" state.

The correct quote is merely an expressive statement of a preference of one set of clothes over the other, which allows for the "naked" and "unclothed" to have its impact on the passage - which refers to resting in peace, lying naked, unclothed, without a body, in the grave, dead waiting for the resurrection.

What say you?

Yes I believe what it says in the Bible is that we will be souls or spirits, not in bodily form in heaven.

 

[-Phil]

It’s a pointing to the actuality, or what’s already the case. There’s no self ‘inside’ a body, the ‘body’ is inside the self.

 

[MatthewG]

You can cut a body open and find nothing but body parts.

There is something God gave every individual that is born into this world mentally handicapped or not, and that is a soul.

Even the handicapped can tell how you are just by the way you speak to them. In their own soul, depending on how you speak to them could cause conflict especially if you are using a bad tone of a voice, also language.

Every person has a soul. Soul being a (mind/will/emotion) - which is You, that makes that body work. We are made up of Soul/Body/Spirit.

And every soul goes back to God.

But people believe what they will, no judgement here.

 

[bbyrd009]

Paul's saying it's his preference to be absent from this body, skip the waiting for the resurrection body, and immediately put on his immortality. I should be our hope, as well.

i would keep an open mind there, as i srsly doubt that that is what Paul was saying wadr

 

[bbyrd009]

Every person has a soul

every person has a life, yes

And every soul goes back to God

i just found two diff websites that claim “100 verses about the soul going back to God,” and not a single one of them says that one single time, Matthew. sorry.
the spirit goes back to God, Who gave it

 

[MatthewG]

Oh, well I tend to look at the soul and spirit as similar to one another, @bbyrd009.

Then again it doesn't matter what people think when it comes to resurrection.

Everyone is going to be resurrected. So whatever people think it is between them and God.

 

[MatthewG]

I imagine that if heaven is gonna have people others hate in it, they do not want them to be there even if they are on the outside of the city, ya know @bbyrd009.

Probably a heart problem God needs to work out for that person.

 

[bbyrd009]

Oh, well I tend to look at the soul and spirit as similar to one another

ok with me, go ahead
dont make it true though

I imagine that if heaven is gonna have people others hate in it, they do not want them to be there even if they are on the outside of the city, ya know

what i know is No one has ever gone up to heaven… Matthew, wadr
have a nice day, gotta run

There is only One Immortal, Who dwells alone in unapproachable light

 

[MatthewG]

See Ya, whatever you believe always between you and God.

I tend to see people die today and are resurrected going on to the Heavenly Jerusalem or outside of it according to John in Revelation, and Jesus who states there is resurrection of life, and resurrection of judgement for those who is faithless.

Maybe I am wrong.

May the Spirit lead people to the truth.

You have a good day too friend.

 

[-Phil]

whatever you believe always between you and God.

Quite the wisdom bomb.

 

[Phoneman777]

i would keep an open mind there, as i srsly doubt that that is what Paul was saying wadr

hey, bb, doesn't Paul he's "willing rather"? Sure sounds like he's expressing a preference.

 

[ScottA]

Hi, Scott, I changed the title from "disprove" to "support" which is actually along the lines of my original thinking but got a bit distracted earlier.

Perhaps I should point out that this is the popular yet inaccurate quote:

"To be absent from the body IS TO BE present with the Lord".​

Paul actually said:

"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, AND TO BE present with the Lord."​

The popular but erroneous quote makes the verse an "either/or" statement which demands we're continuously dressed in either mortal or immortal clothing and ignores the "naked" and "unclothed" state.

The correct quote is merely an expressive statement of a preference of one set of clothes over the other, which allows for the "naked" and "unclothed" to have its impact on the passage - which refers to resting in peace, lying naked, unclothed, without a body, in the grave, dead waiting for the resurrection.

What say you?

Thanks for the explanation, I now understand your point.

However, there are factors that would change what is actually true. We know that Jesus told the thief on the cross not that he would see Him after "lying naked in the grave" for a time, but rather "today." Which ought to be enough said to support the idea that "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."

Yet with further reasoning, we should also arrive at the fact that salvation being a matter of God and therefore not subject to the passing of time, a saved person would rather pass unto the Lord as He explained, saying "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live." In this passage Jesus does not use the same narrative as is often stated in the Old Testament and also in the New, referring rather to Israel, that He would, "raise them up the last day." The difference, I submit, is that He would and did refer differently to the dead than He has to the living--"the dead in Christ" being Israel who died before salvation came, and "the living in Christ" being those who received eternal life as Paul referred to them, saying, "we who are alive and remain"..."alive" referring to the fact that they had or would pass from death to life even while in the flesh and remaining in the world.

There is perhaps more, but it's time for church service...so I submit that without the passing of time for those who die who are no longer of this world, but have already passed from death to life, the saying that "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord", is not only true, but does not say enough. For the meaning of passing from death to life while remaining in the flesh and in the world also means, as Paul also eluded to, that for those who have passed from death to life while in the flesh and remaining in the world--"to live is Christ." Which fulfills Christ's body becoming the Church, and also Him returning bodily "in the flesh."

 

[bbyrd009]

hey, bb, doesn't Paul he's "willing rather"? Sure sounds like he's expressing a preference.

well, imo several things combine there to suggest that Paul is chiding, not encouraging; he uses "we" and not "i," and the point of the lesson never seems to get Quoted--seek to please whether present or absent--which, Paul being often interpreted to ppls destruction, and with an "i tell you" there in the middle, leads me to believe something closer to We are cock-sure, i say, and even wish that we were already dead, and partying with Jesus in heaven

 

[bbyrd009]

I tend to look at the soul and spirit as similar to one another

wasnt it you just said "we are body, soul, and spirit?"

 

[MatthewG]

Yes. It seems to me God breathed into Adam a living giving spirit.

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

then the LORD God formed [that is, created the body of] man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and the man became a living being [an individual complete in body and spirit].

So God breathes life into everyone who is born here in earth, from my perspective. The thing is people are simply creations of God, until when an individual decides for themselves to seek after God, and learn and grow and understand many subjects from the Bible and become grounded in faith, becoming a child of God, or Son of Daughter if they walk by the spirit and not by the will of their flesh - which is controlled by our soul/which will go on after this life if God gave it, and that is why I believe the resurrection is real.

Peter describes Jesus having went to Sheol, and while Jesus went to paradise the same day with the thief on the cross. It looks like Jesus made the decision to go down to the souls that were in prison. There is not telling what he could have said to him, amazing they saw him and heard from him. Surely they heard good news possible?

With all of this evidence for me at least bbyd, I believe that when people die they go on after this life, everyone is born with a soul (mind/will/emotion), that is within the vessel of the body itself only no one can see it.

Everyone seems to be born spiritually dead until they are made spiritually alive again when they come to know the grace and truth of Jesus Christ. That is when people are born by God, as Children of his by and through adoption, (john 1:12-13)