Exposition: Why "Absent From The Body/Present With The Lord" Doesn't Support Immortal Soul Doctrine

[marks]

I think the language is clear enough.

I think it is too, but to see the clarity, see how these words are used in the Scriptures.

If you don't wish to, I understand, it's up to you.

Much love!

 

[Keiw]

so you say, yes

Satan and all rebels get destroyed in the lake of fire. Gods kingdom rule will last forever. There will never be a sick system of things like this ever again. just Happiness.

 

[Keiw]

I've heard this idea before, and thought about it. It's not the normal style to read it that way. But more than that for me is this,

Luke 23:42-43 KJV
42) And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

The thief is saing, "When it happens, When You come into Your throne, remember me."

Jesus draws him closer in two ways, one, More than just remembering you, you will be with Me. And the other, We aren't talking about some nebulous time when this will happen, no, Today. Today you will be with Me in Paradise, the side of comfort in Sheol, the Unseen realm of the dead, in the heart of the earth.

Much love!

There is nothing in Sheol but death. Ecclesiastes 9:5--The dead know nothing at all.

 

[Keiw]

That is not unlike the false doctrine of Purgatory, which essentially claims that time does not stop at death but continues in some holding place until the end of time comes for all. But that is not how things work. Time is of the world (created) and when one passes on, their time has ended. Which is confirmed by Paul's statement, saying, "We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord", not mentioning any [time] in between, for there is none.

Ecclesiastes 9:5--The dead know nothing at all. Yes in the Lords remembrance until the resurrection after armageddon occurs.

 

[bbyrd009]

Satan and all rebels get destroyed in the lake of fire. Gods kingdom rule will last forever. There will never be a sick system of things like this ever again. just Happiness.

Satan and all rebels get destroyed in the lake of fire. Gods kingdom rule will last forever. There will never be a sick system of things like this ever again. just Happiness.

wadr when you leave the world, that is ezackly what happens, yes
well, dunno about happiness 24/7, thats prolly off…

 

[Keiw]

wadr when you leave the world, that is ezackly what happens, yes
well, dunno about happiness 24/7, thats prolly off…

Prov 2:21-22 assures ( the great crowd)stays on earth. Matt24:22 shows they are brought through the trib and Armageddon( on earth)

 

[bbyrd009]

Prov 2:21-22 assures ( the great crowd)stays on earth. Matt24:22 shows they are brought through the trib and Armageddon( on earth)

you seem very sure of your facts there bro lol

 

[ScottA]

Ecclesiastes 9:5--The dead know nothing at all. Yes in the Lords remembrance until the resurrection after armageddon occurs.

You have added to the passage what is not there:

Ecclesiastes 9:5​

5 For the living know that they will die;
But the dead know nothing,
And they have no more reward,
For the memory of them is forgotten.​

​

But no, the passage does not speak of "the dead in Christ" (only) who pass rather from death to life, but also speaks of the dead that are not in Christ. It is for this reason that the passage first addresses the living but then says, "but" making exception to the dead and a distinction between the living and the dead.

 

[Keiw]

you seem very sure of your facts there bro lol

I am sure. Its the whole reason there is a little flock( Luke 12:32) and the great crowd ( Rev 7:9)(John 10:16) of other sheep. One group is promised heaven-they are numbered=144,000--The great crowd no man can number. These are promised earth-Matt 5:5

 

[Keiw]

You have added to the passage what is not there:

Ecclesiastes 9:5​

5 For the living know that they will die;​

But the dead know nothing,​

And they have no more reward,​

For the memory of them is forgotten.​

​

But no, the passage does not speak of "the dead in Christ" (only) who pass rather from death to life, but also speaks of the dead that are not in Christ. It is for this reason that the passage first addresses the living but then says, "but" making exception to the dead and a distinction between the living and the dead.

Every one who dies has paid in full the wages of sin. Most will be resurrected after Armageddon. Their memory is forgotten by mortals. God does not forget. Not one in the OT knew Jesus. Yes many were righteous. they stayed in Sheol.
Eccl 9:10--All that your hands find to do do with your very power, for there is no work, nor devising, nor wisdom or knowledge in Sheol( grave) the place to where you are going.

 

[bbyrd009]

I am sure. Its the whole reason there is a little flock( Luke 12:32) and the great crowd ( Rev 7:9)(John 10:16) of other sheep. One group is promised heaven-they are numbered=144,000--The great crowd no man can number. These are promised earth-Matt 5:5

do you know a man wise in his own eyes?

 

[Keiw]

You have added to the passage what is not there:

Ecclesiastes 9:5​

5 For the living know that they will die;​

But the dead know nothing,​

And they have no more reward,​

For the memory of them is forgotten.​

​

But no, the passage does not speak of "the dead in Christ" (only) who pass rather from death to life, but also speaks of the dead that are not in Christ. It is for this reason that the passage first addresses the living but then says, "but" making exception to the dead and a distinction between the living and the dead.

Every one who dies has paid in full the wages of sin. Most will be resurrected after Armageddon. Their memory is forgotten by mortals. God does not forget. Not one in the OT knew Jesus. Yes many were righteous. they stayed in Sheol.
Eccl 9:10--All that your hands find to do do with your very power, for there is no work, nor devising, nor wisdom or knowledge in Sheol( grave) the place to where you are going.

do you know a man wise in his own eyes?

I believe the bible.

do you know a man wise in his own eyes?

i believe the bible. Gods inspired word.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Verse by verse exposition in red of 2 Corinthians 5:1-8 KJV disproving the popular sentiment: "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord":

2 Corinthians 5:1-8 KJV​

[1] For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
(We know if our mortal body returns to dust, God has reserved for us an immortal, resurrection body.)

[2] For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
(Being subject to life's burdens in our mortal body "clothes", we desire to change into our resurrection body "clothes".)

[3] If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
(If we're clothed in our resurrection body, it's impossible for us to be found lying naked, without a body, in the grave, dead and waiting for the resurrection - because resurrection morning, when the saints put on their immortal, resurrection body, has gloriously come.)

"NAKED" ISN'T REFERRING TO THE WRETCHEDNESS OF "SPIRITUAL NAKEDNESS" AS PROVEN BELOW:

[4] For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
(While subject to life's burdens clothed in our mortal body, we groan for relief - not by resting in peace lying naked, unclothed, without a body, in the grave, dead and waiting for the resurrection - but for the relief our immortal, resurrection clothes provide.)

If Paul was referring to "spiritual nakedness", then how ridiculous of him to say: "We groan for relief from our burdens, but not by becoming lost and going to hell, but by putting on our resurrection clothes..."

Even a blind man can plainly see "naked" and "unclothed" can't possibly refer contextually or common sensically to "a lost spiritual condition" - but refers to that intermediate state between being clothed in our mortal and immortal bodies: lying naked, unclothed, without a body, in the grave, dead and waiting for the resurrection.

[5] Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
(The same God Who bought for us our resurrection clothes with the Gospel also gives us assurance by His Spirit.)

[6] Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
(We're always confident despite knowing if we're down here in our mortal body, we're not up there in our resurrection body.)

[7] (For we walk by faith, not by sight: )
(unless you're in the "left behind" crowd God unfairly allows to walk by sight while the rest of us have to by faith )

[8] We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
(We're confident [that our immortal, resurrection body is in reserve], and our preferencial desire is:

>to immediately strip off these mortal body clothes,
>to skip lying naked, unclothed, without a body, in the grave, dead and waiting for the resurrection,
>and to be present with the Lord resurrection morning wearing our resurrection, immortal clothes.)

Paul knew he wouldn't put on his immortal, resurrection clothes at death, but he himself says when he will in verse 10 - "For we must all appear before the Judgment seat of Christ" - at the end of time "at the last trump" when "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye" when "this corruptible shall put on incorruption and this mortal shall put on immortality". "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" is a false statement and a misquote of Scripture. Paul's saying it's his preference to be absent from this body, skip the waiting for the resurrection body, and immediately put on his immortality. I should be our hope, as well.

Revelation 3:17 says:
”Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:”

So I believe that the nakedness mentioned here is in reference to one being spiritually wretched. That’s the context.

In any event, I do believe in Conditional Immortality.
More specifically I believe in Dualistic Conditional Immortality.
This is the belief that hell is a very real and literal place, but the wicked will be destroyed (erased from existence) in the Lake of Fire after the judgment.

Here is my biblical defense for Dualistic Conditional Immortality (if you or anyone else here is interested):

A Defense of Dualistic Conditional Immortality

Introduction: I believe in “Dualistic Conditional Immortality,” and not “Traditional Conditional Immortality.” I used to believe in “Eternal Torment” (i.e. Eternal Conscious Torment) and even defended it at one time, but I have come to find this belief to be both unbiblical and immoral. I...

www.christianforums.com

Peace, and blessings be unto you in the Lord.

 

[ScottA]

Every one who dies has paid in full the wages of sin. Most will be resurrected after Armageddon. Their memory is forgotten by mortals. God does not forget. Not one in the OT knew Jesus. Yes many were righteous. they stayed in Sheol.
Eccl 9:10--All that your hands find to do do with your very power, for there is no work, nor devising, nor wisdom or knowledge in Sheol( grave) the place to where you are going.

Oh, I am sorry, but that is more of what was falsely taught and believed than what is actually true.

The good news however, is that in spite of the foretold delusion and lie that was to be believed until the times of the gentiles is fulfilled, we are also to be lead unto all truth. Take care not to reject it the second time.

But that you may know the truth: Armageddon is simply a word used for the gathering of the nations (the mount of crowds). In other words: the times of the gentiles.

 

[ScottA]

i believe the bible. Gods inspired word.

Good. That is enough. But do believe it all, as only believing part is to believe a lie, that lie that was foretold.

 

[bbyrd009]

Every one who dies has paid in full the wages of sin. Most will be resurrected after Armageddon

you dont know what you are talking about, and you speak in facts, like a chump, sorry

I believe the bible.

doesnt answer the question tho

i believe the bible. Gods inspired word.

the Bible is not Word, but i am thankful that you are so obnoxious, as at least no one will listen to you.
have a nice day

 

[Phoneman777]

Argument from silence . . .

Much love!

No silence at all for those who don't stop their ears from hearing the truth

Scripture plainly says "David" - the whole person, not just his body - "is not ascended into heaven", Job waits in the grave for his "change" which comes after "Thy wrath (7 last plagues) be past", Paul says his change is "at the last trump" when "we must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ".

Aren't you immortal soul guys curious as to why there isn't a single verse that says specifically the moment we die, we go straight to heaven or straight to hell"? Uninterpreted parables like the Rich Man and Lazarus don't count.

 

[bbyrd009]

Most will be resurrected after Armageddon. Their memory is forgotten by mortals. God does not forget. Not one in the OT knew Jesus. Yes many were righteous. they stayed in Sheol.

ha yikes, with the mindless, irrelevant barfing of facts lol
i mean, unless you can somehow connect that to my post in a way that is currently eluding me, which is entirely possible
anyway, i came back to say that im sure you are earnest enough ok, and i only meant to attempt to get your attn a little

 

[bbyrd009]

Good. That is enough. But do believe it all, as only believing part is to believe a lie, that lie that was foretold.

im finding that when pretty much anyone uses that as like a what? a defense? Who was attacking?
That what they really mean is "im scared to death of the Bible, except for the fifteen verses that have been poorly interpreted for me; please dont make me hear stuff"

 

[Keiw]

Oh, I am sorry, but that is more of what was falsely taught and believed than what is actually true.

The good news however, is that in spite of the foretold delusion and lie that was to be believed until the times of the gentiles is fulfilled, we are also to be lead unto all truth. Take care not to reject it the second time.

But that you may know the truth: Armageddon is simply a word used for the gathering of the nations (the mount of crowds). In other words: the times of the gentiles.

Yes lead into all truth by the real teachers Jesus appointed who get holy spirit and give food( spiritual) at the proper time-Matt 24:45
Yes Every kingdom( govt, armies, supporters)will be mislead to stand in opposition to Gods king for patriotism. By 3 inspired expressions from satans side( like 3 9/11,s hitting mortals in their hearts at once)- they will think its good to do it. They worship the image of the beast because it looks good to the mortal heart. Like this-2Cor 11:12-15-- Gathered together to the place called Armageddon(symbolic)