Exposition: Why "Absent From The Body/Present With The Lord" Doesn't Support Immortal Soul Doctrine

[marks]

we wear both simultaneously

Is that what I said? No, it is not.

Much love!

 

[marks]

The bible teaches Jesus was in the grave( Hades) 3 days, so he was not in paradise the first day.

When Jesus said these words, You will be with me in paradise, where did that mean? Paradise?

Much love!

 

[Phoneman777]

Philippians 1:21-24 KJV
21) For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
22) But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
23) For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
24) Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

Are you thinking that Paul was confused about this?

He seems to be presenting here his expectation that when he leaves his life in flesh, that he will be with Christ.

No?

Much love!

Are you confused about what Paul said about "moment, twinkling of an eye"? He didn't say "winking", he said "twinkling", which is even FASTER than a wink!

Look, when we die, we have ZERO concept of the passing of time. Armies can march over your grave and fight wars on top of it and you will know NOTHING of it: because "the dead know not anything". The Great Reformers taught that death was a "deep, restful, sweet sleep" and the resurrection would be "as one falls asleep and wakes not knowing how he has come to or through death without perceiving he's scarcely slept one minute" just as an exhausted man falls asleep and it seems just as he'd closed his eyes, the alarm is blasting him back awake hours and hours later.

Of course Paul wanted to "depart and be with Christ" because his next conscious thought after death is the glorious coming of our Lord...but he knew what you need to learn, bro! That doesn't happen until "at the last trump"!

 

[marks]

Look, when we die, we have ZERO concept of the passing of time.

No, he said, depart and be with Christ, a descriptive propositional statement. Either he does or does not depart and be with Christ. You are saying he does not, instead remaining in the grave for however many centuries.

If he wanted to write something different, couldn't he have just as easily said, "or to sleep and await the resurrection"?

Why write something wrong, instead of saying the thing that is true? But then, I think that's exactly what he did. Paul, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, wrote what is true.

Much love!

 

[Phoneman777]

That is not true, as it is written "you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world", and "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world", and again "they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world."

What does that prove other than we've "come out from among them", and are "separate", and "touch not the unclean thing" no more, and have been "received unto Myself"?

Certainly not consciousness in death, in which Scripture says "the dead know not anything".

As for Paul not teaching the joy of paradise as coming immediately, many remained in darkness and in slumber just as it has been written of Israel, that the times of the gentiles should be fulfilled.

You're co-mingling a prophecy which refers to the 1,260 year reign of "gentile" papal " tyranny against the "Israel of God" church who belong to Christ and are, thus, "Abraham's seed"...but that's another discussion.

But yes, we can rejoice. However, none gaze down from heaven except God. For just as we all came into the world and the clocks of our individual days and times began to tick after which came death--"but each one in his own order", time did not exist before or after, making the starting of time and the end of time different for us all--but there is no start or end of eternity.

We're not talking about the nature of time - the focus is the nature of man and how time affects him.
Man is mortal, and for this time wears immortal clothes...

Then, time will find him - unless the Lord returns - lying naked, unclothed, without a body, resting in peace, dead and waiting for the resurrection...

Afterwhich there will be "time no more" when Jesus comes and calls him forth from sleep to Himself and he rises with an immortal, incorruptible body, and not a second sooner.

Meaning we all came into being from before the foundation of the world and arrive in paradise together. Which men have not imagined, but has always been true with God. This is the Light of Christ which shines into the world, cast as if through a prism out of eternity unto the ages, from which He and we who are His also return in like manner.

Once in a while I come across this teaching that all men preexisted before they were born. Let's ask Solomon if that's correct:

Ecclesiastes 4:2-3 KJV​

[2] Wherefore I praised the dead which are already dead more than the living which are yet alive. (Why? Obviously, contextually, because the dead guy's through with life's misery - the living yet endure it)

[3] Yea, better is he than both they, which hath not yet been, who hath not seen the evil work that is done under the sun.​

Now, if we've been around since Earth's foundations and not seen the evil controversy between Christ and Satan, our heads must have been firmly shoved way up our celestial badunkadunks.

 

[Phoneman777]

What Solomon wrote is indeed true, as all who are born of the flesh into the world are as dead, and only praise the Lord when they have heard the good news of His coming. The passage does not mean that the dead are in heaven, for the dead do not enter heaven. Therefore the message from Christ is that we must be born again of the spirit of God. But these things are different for "the dead in Christ" and "the living in Christ", as the dead die first, but the living "by no means precede those who are asleep." For which I have said, we actually arrive in paradise together.

As for the meaning of being found "naked", it simply means to be found exposed without the Spirit which had come. This is the fulfillment of what is written, saying "the man of sin is revealed":

The KJV translates Strong's G444 in the following manner: man (552x), not translated (4x), miscellaneous (3x).​

1. a human being, whether male or female
   1. generically, to include all human individuals

My friend, are we going for context or pretext? Because making "living" and "dead" refer to "spiritual life and death" is not within the context.

Verse 3 and 4 firmly establishes the context that "dead" is referring to "six feet under", as verse 3 says "go to the dead" and verse 4 speaks of beasts alive and dead...do beasts have anything to do with being "spiritually alive and dead"? Of course not.

Therefore, "the living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything" means exactly what it says: we know we're going to die but those who've died don't have a thing going on in their head except worms taking up residence.

 

[Phoneman777]

my response to that would be because that is not at all what he meant, since
No one has ever gone up to heaven…and
We do not yet know what we will become,
among other supporting reasons.

Either Paul failed to instruct us to comfort each other by saying our dearly departed are rejoicing in heaven with Jesus, or he correctly instructed us according to "the whole counsel of God".

 

[Phoneman777]

777, your interpretation has been provided to you by the cult of sol invictus imo—which doesnt necc mean like “bad” or anything ok—and is going to color every passage you read until you get the lesson of Esau, whom your fathers neglect, wadr.

Paul is surely relying on symbolic wordplay there to deliberately mislead those who wish to be misled, which i hope you dont take personally, as it is an…all-encompassing deception. I get that this is maybe hard to hear ok, but your misunderstanding of the last post’s subject is evidence that you might want to contemplate a diff perspective, fwiw.

Being confident of something does not necessarily mean jack, when you think about it; it is a wiggle-word, used by a semantic artist, being led by Yah, and pitched to an audience consumed with immortality
imo

k ill prolly erase this pretty quick, dunno, hope you got email notes, have a good day

My interpretation is governed by the Holy Spirit and common sense...and a little wisdom picked up from the wisest man who ever lived. Who was it that said, "ye shall not surely die" again? You got it.

 

[marks]

1 Thessalonians 4:14 KJV
14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

 

[marks]

the lesson of Esau

Care to elaborate?

But not to hijack this thread,

The Lesson of Esau

An invitation to discuss this . . . @bbyrd009 Should you care to, I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on this. Much love!

www.christianityboard.com

Much love!

 

[bbyrd009]

Being confident of something does not necessarily mean jack, when you think about it; it is a wiggle-word, used by a semantic artist, being led by Yah, and pitched to an audience consumed with literal soulish immortality
imo

edited

Paul says he ain't putting on his immortal body until the "last trump":

ha and you are convinced that you have Paul down right, and you know ezackly when this last trump is. huh phone. ok then, have a nice evening, and best of luck to you ok

 

[Phoneman777]

Is that what I said? No, it is not.

Much love!

Is there a third option to:
(1) in reserve for us later
(2) possessed by us now

 

[bbyrd009]

My interpretation is governed by the Holy Spirit and common sense...and a little wisdom picked up from the wisest man who ever lived.

ah, common sense is it. Ok then, as long as you already know, why are you responding to me
i mean pls, splain the lesson of Esau to us, pm

Who was it that said, "ye shall not surely die" again? You got it.

sorry, i dont get it
i doubt you are claiming that he was the wisest man who ever lived…or maybe i have that wrong?

 

[Phoneman777]

ha and you are convinced that you have Paul down right, and you know ezackly when this last trump is. huh phone. ok then, have a nice evening, and best of luck to you ok

If you think the last trump is blown at any time except when the Bible says it is: when the dead rise in the resurrection at the Second Coming, good luck with that.

 

[bbyrd009]

Care to elaborate?

ha well ive kinda been at that for about a year here, marks; so it isnt about caring to…
you are trying to get to Israel, right
or i mean have you just assumed that you landed there, poof, like automatically

but srsly you dont still believe its a story about a guy who needed a literal meal so badly, from a brother he was not close to, that he would die if he did not get it, when their mom lived like right across the meadow lol
surely

 

[bbyrd009]

If you think the last trump is blown at any time except when the Bible says it is: when the dead rise in the resurrection at the Second Coming, good luck with that.

oh i totally believe that pm, but just to be clear Quote me this “Second Coming” just once from the Bible if you would, just so’s we’re clear…


bye pm, been nice catching um up with you

 

[Phoneman777]

No, he said, depart and be with Christ, a descriptive propositional statement. Either he does or does not depart and be with Christ. You are saying he does not, instead remaining in the grave for however many centuries.

If he wanted to write something different, couldn't he have just as easily said, "or to sleep and await the resurrection"?

Why write something wrong, instead of saying the thing that is true? But then, I think that's exactly what he did. Paul, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, wrote what is true.

Much love!

It doesn't say "depart and INSTANTLY be with Christ", friend!

If a man says, "Can't work late, boss, I gotta leave work and have dinner with my wife"...does that mean he INSTANTLY appears in the restaurant the moment he drives out the company parking lot?

 

[Keiw]

Amen.

I've shown people Revelation 2:7 KJV and Revelation 22:1-2 KJV prove that Paradise can be no where but UP because these verses say the Tree of Life is in the midst of Paradise and grows on both sides of the River of Life which flows from the Throne of God.

How anyone can read these verses and still insist that Paradise is down yonder is beyond reasonable explanation.

The new earth will be paradise, transformed during Jesus 1000 year reign while satan is abyssed.

 

[Keiw]

When Jesus said these words, You will be with me in paradise, where did that mean? Paradise?

Much love!

The new earth will be that paradise. The resurrection occurs after Armageddon-the thief will be on earth after Armageddon, earth will be transformed into an Eden(paradise)during Jesus 1000 year reign while satan is abyssed.

 

[bbyrd009]

The new earth will be paradise, transformed during Jesus 1000 year reign while satan is abyssed.

"it will be like this and like that and like this" lol

sry couldnt help it