Faith without works is dead

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haz

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Hi williemac,

Please see my note to you further up the page, as well as the following -



Yes I 'can' - meaning I am able to - sin.

That means - as I understand it - that John was intimating that even more, we can 'not sin', because we have seen Him.


Is this what you were getting at? If not, please say more of what you have in mind? Thanks.

You also said


This is why I asked how you read Romans 8:4.

Before you reply let me comment; I believe Paul's point separates between 'keeping the law' and 'fulfilling the righteousness of the law'.



Hello haz,

Thanks for your replies.


I really don't agree with your interpretation, in that he was writing to Christians. He was not suggesting that any were unsaved, nor that any were in idolatry. He was, rather, drawing their attention to their carnal thinking, in the same way Paul does especially to the Corinthians, and the Galatians. Note that before Paul goes into the detail with the Corinthians in his first epistle, he prefaces his remarks with:

4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ; 5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and [in] all knowledge; 6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: 7 So that ye come behind in no gift;

This is not what you would write to a group of people who have not met the Lord, yet, is it?

All James is saying, is, it is 'good' to do the right thing, knowing that through the Holy Spirit they have power to do the thing they know is right.

Going back to my question here:

'Could you please note for me the key differences between the Old and the New Covenant? (No need to explain in detail. Bullet points okay.)'

I don't see how your verses from Phil 3 and 2 Cor 3 make the comparison which I'm after, namely, the key differences which the two covenants contain. I do acknowledge that your verses show that there is a difference in a general way. (I also acknowledge there are similarities.)

Can you elucidate further?

We are not talking about a denomination, (if that's what you are asking).

Hi dragonfly

We'll have to disagree on James 4:17, Galatians and Corinthians. All 3 books speaks out against those in spiritual adultery/fornication, turning back to works of the law (making themselves transgressors, Gal 2:18).

I'm not sure what "key differences" you might be looking for as we seem to have different understandings. Noting the claims of episkopos it seems your church doctrine claims that New Covenant grace enables you to live perfectly in the physical. Perhaps you can share your view on the differences your doctrine claims.

I see the New Covenant as submitting to the righteousness of God by believing on Jesus as opposed to the old covenant of self-righteousness by works.

BTW, I'm non-denominational too. I also add that I do not follow any church. But, I was interested in the name of the church you and Episkopos fellowship at?
 

Episkopos

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This from Dragonfly

I would like to make the case for separating our love for those who do not know the Lord - which may result in our persecution - from our love for one another within the body of Christ.


Galatians 6:6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.

7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.


What do you think?

I feel John makes an especially powerful case for this in his first epistle, which is consistent with us being the body of Christ on earth.

Ephesians 4:16.

We are to love the lost...together. I believe in community where the brotherhood is a living example of the kingdom. We really can't show Christ on our own. We can testify of Him to be sure. But it is when they see the love of the community from heaven that they are attracted to the LIFE of the Spirit. Men don't realize WHY they need to lay down their old lives....judgment is not immanent enough. But even then fear only takes you so far. But to actually SEE and feel the presence of God's love in the community changes a person...and some will surrender to the calling in Christ. :)


From Haz

BTW, I'm non-denominational too. I also add that I do not follow any church. But, I was interested in the name of the church you and Episkopos fellowship at?



We are simply of one Spirit. Why should that be strange? The Holy Spirit does bring unity....in deeper way than just a nodding of the head. ;)
 

dragonfly

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Hi haz,

Okay. Let me take your statement here and ask a question.

We'll have to disagree on James 4:17, Galatians and Corinthians. All 3 books speaks out against those in spiritual adultery/fornication, turning back to works of the law (making themselves transgressors, Gal 2:18).

Having Paul's comments to these 'transgressors', are you in agreement with his exhortation and doctrine, or, ought he to have said something else?

What is the gospel to those in a church, who are pandering to the flesh, particularly to carnal thinking?
 

tcross.us

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We are all sinners even after accepting Jesus Christ in our hearts as our Savior. We are surrounded by sin. We are not perfect, Jesus was the only one who walked the earth without sin. We should try our very best to be like Him but know that we are human and we will always fall short when we try to live like Jesus. We should work on being like Jesus and being holy. A relationship with Jesus and knowing that He is the way of salvation is what I believe gets you to be more like Him. Unfortunately, God gave us the free will to choose and even when we choose to follow Him the path of righteousness is very narrow so we will make mistakes along the way. Because we have free will we should keep in mind that we consciously make our own decisions and some of the mistakes along the way can be avoided. Do your best in being the best you God created and share the message that God put in your heart to share. No one can tell you if you are or are not going to make it into heaven. I believe that if you have chosen to follow God and do his work then your chances are very good. Blessings!!!
 

RichardBurger

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We are all sinners even after accepting Jesus Christ in our hearts as our Savior. We are surrounded by sin. We are not perfect, Jesus was the only one who walked the earth without sin. We should try our very best to be like Him but know that we are human and we will always fall short when we try to live like Jesus. We should work on being like Jesus and being holy. A relationship with Jesus and knowing that He is the way of salvation is what I believe gets you to be more like Him. Unfortunately, God gave us the free will to choose and even when we choose to follow Him the path of righteousness is very narrow so we will make mistakes along the way. Because we have free will we should keep in mind that we consciously make our own decisions and some of the mistakes along the way can be avoided. Do your best in being the best you God created and share the message that God put in your heart to share. No one can tell you if you are or are not going to make it into heaven. I believe that if you have chosen to follow God and do his work then your chances are very good. Blessings!!!

I like this but I am afraid that this will not be a friendly place for you if you say a child of God, while living in sinful flesh, still commits sins of the flesh. Many here think they are so filled with the spirit that they couldn't possibly commit a sin of the flesh. If you say you still commit sins of the flesh you are the worst person on the forum and must be sinning all over the place. At least that is what I see in their writings.
 

neophyte

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I am also a sinnerSin is a constant of the human condition. It's all around us. It's inside us, too. We are all sinners. Sometimes our sins are written large, like adultery or murder. Sometimes they are buried in a cutting glance. But they're always there.
We sense that things shouldn't be this way, that there must have been a time when things were right in the world. And there was such a time.
When God first made man, He made him perfect, able to live and love as he should, free from sin and sin's worst consequence, which is death. But our first parents turned away from God, and the human race hasn't been right since.
Sin is a violation of the way things should be, a violation of a fundamental law. That law was designed by God to make us happy. Think of how it would be if everyone in the world lived up to that law.
Unfortunately, we all turn away from God's law. In doing so, we turn away from Him. If we don't come back to God, we will be separated from him forever. But we are caught in a cycle of sin. Try as we might, we can't break free. Not on our own.

THE LOVE OF GOD

God has not abandoned us, because God is love. He loves the world he made, and He loves us, broken though we are.
God loves us so much that he sent His only Son to become one of us and to save the human race.
As taught by the Catholic Church.
 

Episkopos

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We are all sinners even after accepting Jesus Christ in our hearts as our Savior. We are surrounded by sin. We are not perfect, Jesus was the only one who walked the earth without sin. We should try our very best to be like Him but know that we are human and we will always fall short when we try to live like Jesus. We should work on being like Jesus and being holy. A relationship with Jesus and knowing that He is the way of salvation is what I believe gets you to be more like Him. Unfortunately, God gave us the free will to choose and even when we choose to follow Him the path of righteousness is very narrow so we will make mistakes along the way. Because we have free will we should keep in mind that we consciously make our own decisions and some of the mistakes along the way can be avoided. Do your best in being the best you God created and share the message that God put in your heart to share. No one can tell you if you are or are not going to make it into heaven. I believe that if you have chosen to follow God and do his work then your chances are very good. Blessings!!!

This was true brfore the death and resurrection of Jesus. Now we can be born from above and walk as He walked by being filled with the Spirit.

I am also a sinnerSin is a constant of the human condition. It's all around us. It's inside us, too. We are all sinners. Sometimes our sins are written large, like adultery or murder. Sometimes they are buried in a cutting glance. But they're always there.
We sense that things shouldn't be this way, that there must have been a time when things were right in the world. And there was such a time.
When God first made man, He made him perfect, able to live and love as he should, free from sin and sin's worst consequence, which is death. But our first parents turned away from God, and the human race hasn't been right since.
Sin is a violation of the way things should be, a violation of a fundamental law. That law was designed by God to make us happy. Think of how it would be if everyone in the world lived up to that law.
Unfortunately, we all turn away from God's law. In doing so, we turn away from Him. If we don't come back to God, we will be separated from him forever. But we are caught in a cycle of sin. Try as we might, we can't break free. Not on our own.

THE LOVE OF GOD

God has not abandoned us, because God is love. He loves the world he made, and He loves us, broken though we are.
God loves us so much that he sent His only Son to become one of us and to save the human race.
As taught by the Catholic Church.


Jesus is risen and we no longer need to walk in the powerlessness of the flesh. Good News!!!!

I like this but I am afraid that this will not be a friendly place for you if you say a child of God, while living in sinful flesh, still commits sins of the flesh. Many here think they are so filled with the spirit that they couldn't possibly commit a sin of the flesh. If you say you still commit sins of the flesh you are the worst person on the forum and must be sinning all over the place. At least that is what I see in their writings.

Not everybody on earth has experienced resurrection life.
 

haz

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Feb 17, 2011
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Hi haz,

Okay. Let me take your statement here and ask a question.



Having Paul's comments to these 'transgressors', are you in agreement with his exhortation and doctrine, or, ought he to have said something else?

What is the gospel to those in a church, who are pandering to the flesh, particularly to carnal thinking?

Hi dragonfly,

I'm in agreement with Paul's exhortation.
We also see in scriptures calls for repentance for those in spiritual adultery/fornication/walking in the flesh.
 

dragonfly

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Hi haz,

I'm reviving Axehead's questions to you, because you can make a stab at them. Or, say you don't know if you really don't know. No-one is going to come round your house and beat you up if you disagree, or, come to a different understanding later. We are all here to help one another move forward in God.

Axehead, on 19 July 2012 - 01:34 AM, said:

Hi Haz and RichardBurger,

I was wondering if you consider the following works? If yes, what kind of works would you consider them?

1. "abiding in Christ" (John 15)
2. "putting to death the deeds of the flesh" as the Spirit leads. (Rom_8:13)
3. Walking in holiness (without which no man shall see the Lord:) (Heb 12:14 )
4. renewing of your mind (Rom_12:2 )
5. Being "kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love" (Romans 12:10)
6. Abhoring that which is evil; and cleaving to that which is good. (Romans 12:9)

Thanks,
Axehead


Hi Axehead,

Jesus was asked what works we should do. He answered "believe on him whom he has sent", John 6:29

Regarding that list you gave asking if I thought it was works, unfortunately I don't know how you define/understand each of these points you listed...'


Axehead also asked: 'If yes, what kind of works would you consider them?'

If you don't consider them works of something, then, how do they fit your own understanding to date?



Many thanks.
 

Stan

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In keeping with this point of scripture, the 4[sup]th[/sup] commandment is one of the ten; do you willingly break this one? Then you are guilty of all. This is the moral law and if it was hung on the cross as most of you suggest then there is no sin. Without the moral law there can be no sin, so make merry and do as you will, for there can be no sin without the law, as sin is the transgression of the law. As for me and mine we will serve the Lord.
I am sure that many of you will fight against these scriptures and your fight is with God as I am the messenger only. You seem to believe that if you keep the laws of God it is the same as being a Pharisee, but it is not, as they had their oral traditions and that was there down fall not the scriptures, as Christ told the people to do as the Pharisees told them, but not as they did. They taught truth, but lived a lie, by following those traditions. I just wonder if any of you understand where in prophesy we are. The tribulation is near and all is in place to fulfill all of the prophesies of God, right now. The one world government is in place, the mark is in place to be fulfilled soon if Obama Care is not struck down and Armageddon will begin if Israel attacks Iran, so how much time do you have to follow the commandments of God? Remember once the tribulation starts it will be too late.
humble servant of the Lord God Most High

The NC means that the written law has been fulfilled and is NOW obsolete. God has written His Laws on our hearts and His Holy Spirit reminds us of Jesus and brings to remembrance His words and teachings. Yes we use the canon of scripture for direction, and NO God does not recant His Word. We have received the perfect atonement for ALL our sins, Christ's blood. It covers our sin and God only sees the blood of Jesus when He looks at us.
Bringing Obama and Iran into this, is out of context and just inflammatory.
We are NOT under the OT/OC and therefore are not governed by them. We are under the NT/NC teachings and are obliged to follow those direction, but again we live by the SPIRIT of God's Law, NOT the letter of the law.
 

neophyte

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The NC means that the written law has been fulfilled and is NOW obsolete. God has written His Laws on our hearts and His Holy Spirit reminds us of Jesus and brings to remembrance His words and teachings. Yes we use the canon of scripture for direction, and NO God does not recant His Word. We have received the perfect atonement for ALL our sins, Christ's blood. It covers our sin and God only sees the blood of Jesus when He looks at us.
Bringing Obama and Iran into this, is out of context and just inflammatory.
We are NOT under the OT/OC and therefore are not governed by them. We are under the NT/NC teachings and are obliged to follow those direction, but again we live by the SPIRIT of God's Law, NOT the letter of the law.

The Old Testament is very important for Christians. The Catechism of the Catholic Church explains:

The Old Testament is an indispensable part of Sacred Scripture. Its books are divinely inspired and retain a permanent value, for the Old Covenant has never been revoked.
Indeed, "the economy of the Old Testament was deliberately so oriented that it should prepare for and declare in prophecy the coming of Christ, redeemer of all men." "Even though they contain matters imperfect and provisional," the books of the Old Testament bear witness to the whole divine pedagogy of God’s saving love: these writings "are a storehouse of sublime teaching on God and of sound wisdom on human life, as well as a wonderful treasury of prayers; in them, too, the mystery of our salvation is present in a hidden way."
Christians venerate the Old Testament as true Word of God. The Church has always vigorously opposed the idea of rejecting the Old Testament under the pretext that the New has rendered it void (Marcionism). (CCC 121-123)​
 

Stan

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The Old Testament is very important for Christians. The Catechism of the Catholic Church explains:

The Old Testament is an indispensable part of Sacred Scripture. Its books are divinely inspired and retain a permanent value, for the Old Covenant has never been revoked.
Indeed, "the economy of the Old Testament was deliberately so oriented that it should prepare for and declare in prophecy the coming of Christ, redeemer of all men." "Even though they contain matters imperfect and provisional," the books of the Old Testament bear witness to the whole divine pedagogy of God’s saving love: these writings "are a storehouse of sublime teaching on God and of sound wisdom on human life, as well as a wonderful treasury of prayers; in them, too, the mystery of our salvation is present in a hidden way."
Christians venerate the Old Testament as true Word of God. The Church has always vigorously opposed the idea of rejecting the Old Testament under the pretext that the New has rendered it void (Marcionism). (CCC 121-123)​

Quite frankly, as an ex RC, I am NOT guided by the RC Catechism. I am guided by the Bible. Both Jesus and Paul said the OC was to be fulfilled and then rendered obsolete, and so it was, and so it is!
 

haz

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Feb 17, 2011
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Hi haz,

I'm reviving Axehead's questions to you, because you can make a stab at them. Or, say you don't know if you really don't know. No-one is going to come round your house and beat you up if you disagree, or, come to a different understanding later. We are all here to help one another move forward in God.

[/font][/size]

Axehead also asked: 'If yes, what kind of works would you consider them?'

If you don't consider them works of something, then, how do they fit your own understanding to date?
Many thanks.

Hi dragonfly,

Just a quick answer here as I'm late for work.

Regarding Axeheads list below, they are covered by the works of believing on Jesus (John 6:29).

1. "abiding in Christ" (John 15)
2. "putting to death the deeds of the flesh" as the Spirit leads.
3. Walking in holiness (without which no man shall see the Lord
4. renewing of your mind
5. Being "kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love"
6. Abhoring that which is evil; and cleaving to that which is good.

No doubt you have a very different understanding on this.
 

dragonfly

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No doubt you have a very different understanding on this.

Not necessarily. I'll be interested in hearing what Axehead had in mind.

For me, I would have mentioned the Holy Spirit, but perhaps you were including Him automatically? Yes or no?
 

neophyte

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Apr 25, 2012
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Quite frankly, as an ex RC, I am NOT guided by the RC Catechism. I am guided by the Bible. Both Jesus and Paul said the OC was to be fulfilled and then rendered obsolete, and so it was, and so it is!

I am sorry Stan, to hear that you gave up walking with St.Peter and now walk with Judas.

Here is the real deal about the O C / Old Law

Old Testament law, as such, is not binding on Christians. It never has been. In fact, it was only ever binding on those to whom it was delivered—the Jews (Israelites). That said, some of that law contains elements of a law that is binding on all people of every place and time. Jesus and Paul provide evidence of this in the New Testament.
Matthew’s Gospel enlightens us to Jesus’ teaching concerning Old Testament law:

[A Pharisee lawyer] asked him a question, to test him. "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?" And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets." (Matt. 22:34-40)​
In saying this, Jesus declared the breadth of the new law of his new covenant which brings to perfection the old law. He explained further to his disciples:

"Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." (Matt. 5:17-19)​
How could Jesus fulfill the Old Testament law without relaxing it? The Catechism of the Catholic Church states, "The Law has not been abolished, but rather man is invited to rediscover it in the person of his Master who is its perfect fulfillment" (CCC 2053).
A Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture explains,

The solemnity of our Lord’s opening pronouncements and his clear intention of inaugurating a new religious movement make it necessary for him to explain his position with regard to the [Old Testament law]. He has not come to abrogate but to bring it to perfection, i.e. to reveal the full intention of the divine legislator. The sense of this "fulfilling" . . . is the total expression of God’s will in the old order . . . Far from dying . . . the old moral order is to rise to a new life, infused with a new spirit. (861)​
How Jesus Perfects OT Law
Old Testament law included many dietary regulations which were instituted as a preparation for his teaching on the moral law. Jesus discussed these laws:

"Hear me, all of you, and understand: there is nothing outside a man which by going into him can defile him; but the things which come out of a man are what defile him." And when he had entered the house, and left the people, his disciples asked him about the parable. And he said to them, "Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a man from outside cannot defile him, since it enters, not his heart but his stomach, and so passes on?" (Thus he declared all foods clean.) (Mark 7:14-19)​
The Catechism explains, "Jesus perfects the dietary law, so important in Jewish daily life, by revealing its pedagogical meaning through a divine interpretation . . . What comes out of a man is what defiles a man. For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts . . ." (CCC 582). Paul taught similarly concerning other Old Testament law:

[L]et no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon . . . These are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ . . . Why do you submit to regulations, "Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch" (referring to things which all perish as they are used), according to human precepts and doctrines? These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting rigor of devotion and self-abasement and severity to the body, but they are of no value in checking the indulgence of the flesh. (Col. 2:16-17; 20-23)​
In this passage we can see that Paul recognized that much of the Old Testament law was instituted to set the stage for the new law that Christ would usher in. Much of the old law’s value could be viewed in this regard.
Jesus’ teaching about the Sabbath indicates similar value in part of the Old Testament regulation of the Sabbath:

Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath; his disciples were hungry, and they began to pluck heads of grain and to eat. But when the Pharisees saw it, they said to him, "Look, your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath." He said to them, "Have you not read what David did, when he was hungry, and those who were with him: how he entered the house of God and ate the bread of the Presence, which it was not lawful for him to eat nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests? Or have you not read in the law how on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are guiltless? I tell you, something greater than the temple is here. And if you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the guiltless. For the Son of man is lord of the Sabbath." (Matt. 12:1-8)​
Clearly, Jesus indicated that he—not the Old Testament—had authority over the Sabbath, and its regulation was not as rigid as the Pharisees thought. In fact, once Jesus would endow the hierarchy of his Church with his own authority (Matt. 16:19; 18:18), regulation of worship would become the domain of the Church.
The Law That’s Rooted in Reason
It is important to point our here that the obligation to worship is something all people of every place and time can know simply through the use of reason. It is knowledge built into the human conscience as part of what is called the "natural law." Paul makes note of such law when discussing those of his own time who were never bound by Old Testament law: "When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts . . ." (Rom. 2:14-15a).
The Ten Commandments are often cited as examples of the natural law. Christians are obliged to follow the laws cited in the Ten Commandments not because they are cited in the Ten Commandments—part of Old Testament law—but because they are part of the natural law—for the most part.
Certainly we can know by reason alone that certain actions are immoral—e.g., to kill the innocent, to take what does not belong to us, to cheat on our spouses, etc.
Similarly, we can know by reason alone that we are obliged to worship our Creator. But can we really know in the same way that such worship should take place on Saturday every week? Of course not! That part of the Sabbath commandment is not part of the natural law at all but was simply a law imposed upon the Jews for the discipline of their nation. Other people had the authority to choose for themselves the time they set aside for worship. For Christians now, it makes sense to do this on Sunday.

The celebration of Sunday observes the moral commandment inscribed by nature in the human heart to render to God an outward, visible, public, and regular worship as a sign of his universal beneficence to all. Sunday worship fulfills the moral command of the Old Covenant, taking up its rhythm and spirit in the weekly celebration of the Creator and Redeemer of his people.​
Old Testament law required, as a discipline, that the Jews worship on Saturday. Similarly, the Church obliges Catholics to worship on Sunday, the day of the Lord’s Resurrection.
Like the majority of the law found in the Ten Commandments, the Church’s teaching on the immorality of homosexual activity is part of the natural law. People of every time and place can know this through reason alone and are bound by it even without explicit teaching on it. It wasn’t absolutely necessary for God to include such teaching in Old Testament law, nor was it absolutely necessary to include it in the New Testament. Even so, the New Testament contains ample teaching in this regard. (For a fuller treatment of this issue, see "Homosexuality," This Rock, April 2006.)
The Law That Binds
So, to answer the Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance and the Eternal Gospel Church, Christians are bound to the law of Christ which, of course, includes the natural law.
Old Testament law contains elements of natural law—e.g., the condemnation of homosexual activity—to which Christians are bound for that reason, not because of their inclusion in the Old Testament. Christians do not have liberty on these issues.
Also, Christians are not and have never been bound by Old Testament law for its own sake, and those elements of Old Testament law which are not part of the natural law—e.g., the obligation to worship on Saturday —were only ever binding on the Jews. Christians do have liberty on those issues.



Jim Blackburn is a Catholic Answers staff apologist. A cradle Catholic born and raised in southern Illinois, he is a graduate of Southern Illinois University. He had studied Catholicism and other faiths for many years as an amateur apologist before going on the 2003 Catholic Answers apologetics...
 

Stan

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Well it looks like you're getting personal on me so I'll just leave you to your rhetoric and man-made church.

You should take this verse to memory, it the last I have to say to you on this subject.
1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus.
 

lawrance

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I am sorry Stan, to hear that you gave up walking with St.Peter and now walk with Judas.

Here is the real deal about the O C / Old Law

Old Testament law, as such, is not binding on Christians. It never has been. In fact, it was only ever binding on those to whom it was delivered—the Jews (Israelites). That said, some of that law contains elements of a law that is binding on all people of every place and time. Jesus and Paul provide evidence of this in the New Testament.
Matthew’s Gospel enlightens us to Jesus’ teaching concerning Old Testament law:

[A Pharisee lawyer] asked him a question, to test him. "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?" And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets." (Matt. 22:34-40)​
In saying this, Jesus declared the breadth of the new law of his new covenant which brings to perfection the old law. He explained further to his disciples:

"Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." (Matt. 5:17-19)​
How could Jesus fulfill the Old Testament law without relaxing it? The Catechism of the Catholic Church states, "The Law has not been abolished, but rather man is invited to rediscover it in the person of his Master who is its perfect fulfillment" (CCC 2053).
A Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture explains,

The solemnity of our Lord’s opening pronouncements and his clear intention of inaugurating a new religious movement make it necessary for him to explain his position with regard to the [Old Testament law]. He has not come to abrogate but to bring it to perfection, i.e. to reveal the full intention of the divine legislator. The sense of this "fulfilling" . . . is the total expression of God’s will in the old order . . . Far from dying . . . the old moral order is to rise to a new life, infused with a new spirit. (861)​
How Jesus Perfects OT Law
Old Testament law included many dietary regulations which were instituted as a preparation for his teaching on the moral law. Jesus discussed these laws:

"Hear me, all of you, and understand: there is nothing outside a man which by going into him can defile him; but the things which come out of a man are what defile him." And when he had entered the house, and left the people, his disciples asked him about the parable. And he said to them, "Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a man from outside cannot defile him, since it enters, not his heart but his stomach, and so passes on?" (Thus he declared all foods clean.) (Mark 7:14-19)​
The Catechism explains, "Jesus perfects the dietary law, so important in Jewish daily life, by revealing its pedagogical meaning through a divine interpretation . . . What comes out of a man is what defiles a man. For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts . . ." (CCC 582). Paul taught similarly concerning other Old Testament law:

[L]et no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon . . . These are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ . . . Why do you submit to regulations, "Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch" (referring to things which all perish as they are used), according to human precepts and doctrines? These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting rigor of devotion and self-abasement and severity to the body, but they are of no value in checking the indulgence of the flesh. (Col. 2:16-17; 20-23)​
In this passage we can see that Paul recognized that much of the Old Testament law was instituted to set the stage for the new law that Christ would usher in. Much of the old law’s value could be viewed in this regard.
Jesus’ teaching about the Sabbath indicates similar value in part of the Old Testament regulation of the Sabbath:

Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath; his disciples were hungry, and they began to pluck heads of grain and to eat. But when the Pharisees saw it, they said to him, "Look, your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath." He said to them, "Have you not read what David did, when he was hungry, and those who were with him: how he entered the house of God and ate the bread of the Presence, which it was not lawful for him to eat nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests? Or have you not read in the law how on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are guiltless? I tell you, something greater than the temple is here. And if you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the guiltless. For the Son of man is lord of the Sabbath." (Matt. 12:1-8)​
Clearly, Jesus indicated that he—not the Old Testament—had authority over the Sabbath, and its regulation was not as rigid as the Pharisees thought. In fact, once Jesus would endow the hierarchy of his Church with his own authority (Matt. 16:19; 18:18), regulation of worship would become the domain of the Church.
The Law That’s Rooted in Reason
It is important to point our here that the obligation to worship is something all people of every place and time can know simply through the use of reason. It is knowledge built into the human conscience as part of what is called the "natural law." Paul makes note of such law when discussing those of his own time who were never bound by Old Testament law: "When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts . . ." (Rom. 2:14-15a).
The Ten Commandments are often cited as examples of the natural law. Christians are obliged to follow the laws cited in the Ten Commandments not because they are cited in the Ten Commandments—part of Old Testament law—but because they are part of the natural law—for the most part.
Certainly we can know by reason alone that certain actions are immoral—e.g., to kill the innocent, to take what does not belong to us, to cheat on our spouses, etc.
Similarly, we can know by reason alone that we are obliged to worship our Creator. But can we really know in the same way that such worship should take place on Saturday every week? Of course not! That part of the Sabbath commandment is not part of the natural law at all but was simply a law imposed upon the Jews for the discipline of their nation. Other people had the authority to choose for themselves the time they set aside for worship. For Christians now, it makes sense to do this on Sunday.


The celebration of Sunday observes the moral commandment inscribed by nature in the human heart to render to God an outward, visible, public, and regular worship as a sign of his universal beneficence to all. Sunday worship fulfills the moral command of the Old Covenant, taking up its rhythm and spirit in the weekly celebration of the Creator and Redeemer of his people.​
Old Testament law required, as a discipline, that the Jews worship on Saturday. Similarly, the Church obliges Catholics to worship on Sunday, the day of the Lord’s Resurrection.
Like the majority of the law found in the Ten Commandments, the Church’s teaching on the immorality of homosexual activity is part of the natural law. People of every time and place can know this through reason alone and are bound by it even without explicit teaching on it. It wasn’t absolutely necessary for God to include such teaching in Old Testament law, nor was it absolutely necessary to include it in the New Testament. Even so, the New Testament contains ample teaching in this regard. (For a fuller treatment of this issue, see "Homosexuality," This Rock, April 2006.)
The Law That Binds
So, to answer the Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance and the Eternal Gospel Church, Christians are bound to the law of Christ which, of course, includes the natural law.
Old Testament law contains elements of natural law—e.g., the condemnation of homosexual activity—to which Christians are bound for that reason, not because of their inclusion in the Old Testament. Christians do not have liberty on these issues.
Also, Christians are not and have never been bound by Old Testament law for its own sake, and those elements of Old Testament law which are not part of the natural law—e.g., the obligation to worship on Saturday —were only ever binding on the Jews. Christians do have liberty on those issues.



Jim Blackburn is a Catholic Answers staff apologist. A cradle Catholic born and raised in southern Illinois, he is a graduate of Southern Illinois University. He had studied Catholicism and other faiths for many years as an amateur apologist before going on the 2003 Catholic Answers apologetics...

I agree with all that.

And will just say that the israelites are the ones who came and followed in Christ when he came, as this was the one who was to come, but the Jew did not then see, but will in time come to Jesus Christ.

Jews do not have to follow the Law as of old, as Christ has come and the poor Jew is following in ignorance the old. as Blackburn shows we do not just toss away the Law and if one was a Jewish person to hear one disregarding the Law will sure not bring them to coming to the Lord and that's for sure ! as they will just disregard you as a complete fool.
 

Stan

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Jul 19, 2012
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I would be more than happy to be 'disregarded' as a complete fool for Jesus, or even regarded for that matter!

Teachers of the Law and Pharisees always thought Jesus was a fool. Jews who really want to know their Messiah, are more than happy to 'disregard' the old laws and the old covenant, especially when they see what the new covenant actually is.

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
 

dragonfly

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Apr 19, 2012
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Hello MR ROSENBERGER,

There is ample evidence within scripture, of 'Jews' coming to know the Lord. For instance, Jesus' mother and brethren were in the upper room on the day of Pentecost, and the whole of Jerusalem was packed with Jews from other parts of the world, who'd come for Passover and Pentecost, who heard and believed Peter's preaching (after the Holy Spirit had fallen) and were baptised. Then Philip spoke to the Jewish eunuch from Ethiopia, who was born again and baptised on his way home. Really, it is a fable that no Jews have been or will be saved until some time in the future from now.
 

lawrance

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Mar 30, 2011
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Hello MR ROSENBERGER,

There is ample evidence within scripture, of 'Jews' coming to know the Lord. For instance, Jesus' mother and brethren were in the upper room on the day of Pentecost, and the whole of Jerusalem was packed with Jews from other parts of the world, who'd come for Passover and Pentecost, who heard and believed Peter's preaching (after the Holy Spirit had fallen) and were baptised. Then Philip spoke to the Jewish eunuch from Ethiopia, who was born again and baptised on his way home. Really, it is a fable that no Jews have been or will be saved until some time in the future from now.
These Jews are Israelites dragonfly because the lights are on and the so called Jews ? that have come and do come truly to Christ are now an Israel just like all true Christians are Israel.

I don't know why you have come to think i don't believe that any jews have never came to and been saved.
I was on about in the end ( or one day ) all of the Jews will come to Christ due to the two sticks coming together.

I would be more than happy to be 'disregarded' as a complete fool for Jesus, or even regarded for that matter!

Teachers of the Law and Pharisees always thought Jesus was a fool. Jews who really want to know their Messiah, are more than happy to 'disregard' the old laws and the old covenant, especially when they see what the new covenant actually is.

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
The teachers of the Law and the Pharisees knew who Jesus was and never thought he was a fool that's for sure. read your Bible.
Jews just up and disregarding the Law, come of it, they must be poorly educated silly people claiming to be jews ! a true Jew worth his salt would never swallow that gullible tripe dished up by some of you misled protestants

You are right about 1 Cor 1:18