Faithful and Just to Forgive . . .

[Davy]

OK.

I find this routinely when I disagree with someone, that there comes a point when the discussion comes to a particular verse, and someone saying somthing like, "Well, it SAYS 'mortal body', but what it MEANS is 'spiritual body'."

It says THIS but what it really means is THAT.

Curious . . . if God wanted to tell us that the Spirit would give life to our mortal bodies, how do you suppose He would say that?

And why should we not accept it with the simplicity of what it says?

Much love!

You aren't able to understand because of that word "mortal". You think that word must always point to the flesh just because our flesh is mortal. Yet I showed from 1 Cor.15:53 that the word "mortal" in the Greek means 'liable to die' per Strong's no. 2349 but must put on "immortality" to have eternal life, even though the previous word "corruptible" is actually about the flesh body. Paul was talking about 2 changes we must go through to have eternal life through Christ. Our corruptible flesh body must be changed to the body of incorruption, which is a "spiritual body", and "this mortal" which is about a liable to die soul must put on immortality. We well know the flesh is not immortal because Paul said flesh and bones cannot inherit the kingdom of God. That has to mean "this mortal" means our spirit/soul, for that is still what is liable to die for those of the resurrection of damnation who will be resurrected when Jesus comes, but will still be subject to the "second death". (This is really easy if one does not allow their carnal mind to get in the way.)

What you don't understand is the resurrection, period. In Matthew 22:30 Jesus said those of the resurrection are "as the angels of God in heaven", meaning there is no flesh body involved. Paul affirmed that too in 1 Corinthians 15:50.

 

[Davy]

That's not what I'm saying.

You're slapping me down over the Greek words, and you are the one posting the Greek. I'm responding to that, and yes, I did let myself respond with some of my resume. My bad! I don't prefer to do that. It's not about me.



An invitation to intellectual dishonesty?

Believe whatever I want?

I don't deny our resurrection, and into a celestial body.

2 Corinthians 5
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

We shall be clothed upon, not being found naked, our mortality "swallowed up" of life.

Much love!

Your just wasting time, going around in circles, when you could be learning.

Nah, let's not leave 1 Corinthians 15 where the meat is.

1 Cor 15:35-55
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

The subject is "with what body do they come", meaning the kind of body the resurrection body is.

Paul uses agriculture germination of seed to explain this, but that is not totally applicable after a point. The sown seed dies with the new plant coming out of the dead seed. That's about where the analogy stops applying, because with the resurrection body, it is not a new material plant, for that would be reincarnation if the resurrection is just another flesh body like today's.

The resurrection body is actually already sown in our flesh body; at flesh death our resurrection body simply steps out of our flesh. This is why Solomon in Eccl.12:5-7 pointed to a "silver cord", the idea that our spirit is attached to our flesh body by a cord; and when the cord is severed at flesh death, our flesh goes back to the earth where it came from, but our spirit goes back to God Who gave it (and with continued existence per many Bible Scriptures, like the Matthew 10:28 example).


38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased Him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

Paul is simply preparing to show how the resurrection body is not another flesh body. Celestial means of the heavens, like in outer space, the material universe of stars, galaxies, etc, still part of the material earthly dimension. It does not mean the spiritual dimension. Terrestrial means of the earth.


42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

That is not saying the flesh body is sown in corruption and then raised in corruption. It is talking about something that is sown in the flesh first, and then is raised without flesh corruption. Paul doesn't say what that "It" is, but it's not flesh.


43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

That "It" that is sown is about our spiritual body with soul that is sown in our flesh, and held in the flesh via the "silver cord". When the flesh dies the spiritual body with soul is loosed, even as Jesus showed this in Matthew 10:28, and in Luke 16. That "spiritual body" is an outward body likeness, what Paul later called "the image of the heavenly". When Lot saw the two angels sent him, he saw their outward likeness as men; so did the sodomites there. Even though the angelic body is not flesh, it still has an outward image or likeness, and it is the likeness of man, made after God's Own Image (and that even though God is a Spirit per John 4:24).


45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

And there it is, 6 examples Paul gives that the resurrection body is of that other dimension and is a spirit body, not one of flesh and blood.


51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
KJV

For those still alive on the "last trump", their flesh body must be 'changed' to the body of incorruption, and that is about the resurrection body, a spiritual body...

AND...

"this mortal" must put on "immortality". That is about the mortal soul that is attached to the spiritual body; the two cannot be separated. And for the wicked that is what goes into the future "lake of fire" that is destroyed, called the "second death". Flesh does not go into that "lake of fire", for the first death is the death of the flesh body. The "second death" is the death of one's soul with spirit in the future "lake of fire".

This is really easy, IF... one listens to God's Word as written.

 

[Davy]

It's just like with Jesus. The tomb was empty. No body leftovers.

Our bodies are changed, transformed, and this transformation is described in the same terms as our spiritual renew, a "putting on" of the new. Clothed upon.

That's man's religion talking, not actual Bible Truth.

Man is always trying to spiritualize ideas from God's Word instead of understanding the reality of the other dimension of existence, i.e., the heavenly dimension. It is just as real as the earthly dimension we live in today. But it is not an earthly material matter dimension. It is made up of spirit. If you don't understand that, then nor would you understand how God's creation was possible, per this...

Heb 11:3
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
KJV

 

[marks]

You aren't able to understand because of that word "mortal". You think that word must always point to the flesh just because our flesh is mortal. Yet I showed from 1 Cor.15:53 that the word "mortal" in the Greek means 'liable to die' per Strong's no. 2349 but must put on "immortality" to have eternal life, even though the previous word "corruptible" is actually about the flesh body. Paul was talking about 2 changes we must go through to have eternal life through Christ. Our corruptible flesh body must be changed to the body of incorruption, which is a "spiritual body", and "this mortal" which is about a liable to die soul must put on immortality. We well know the flesh is not immortal because Paul said flesh and bones cannot inherit the kingdom of God. That has to mean "this mortal" means our spirit/soul, for that is still what is liable to die for those of the resurrection of damnation who will be resurrected when Jesus comes, but will still be subject to the "second death". (This is really easy if one does not allow their carnal mind to get in the way.)

What you don't understand is the resurrection, period. In Matthew 22:30 Jesus said those of the resurrection are "as the angels of God in heaven", meaning there is no flesh body involved. Paul affirmed that too in 1 Corinthians 15:50.

Believe me, I understand your argument.

Mortal . . . subject to death . . . is the New Creation spirit mortal? Subject to death? What is your thinking on that?

Much love!

 

[marks]

That's man's religion talking, not actual Bible Truth.

John 20:2 "Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him."

Mark 16
5 And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted.
6 And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.

Jesus wasn't there, the place where they laid Him was empty, the grave wrappings no longer wrapped a body. What happened there?

If I'm not mistaken, maybe this is going the same direction as a converation I had with @ScottA some time back on this very topic. His point, with which I agree, is that the bodies that we inhabit in the ages to come are not the same flesh as these, as the first is earthy, the second is heavenly.

But even so, Jesus still came out of the tomb leaving it empty. Our bodies will be changed to be like His glorious body.

So I believe we will have a physical resurrection, and our graves will be empty, our bodies transformed, but not to become again like the terrestrial body.

Much love!

 

[Davy]

Believe me, I understand your argument.

Mortal . . . subject to death . . . is the New Creation spirit mortal? Subject to death? What is your thinking on that?

Much love!

When our Lord Jesus returns on the last day, that will be the end of death in the flesh. The only type of death that will remain is the "second death", which is the casting of the spiritual body with soul into the future "lake of fire".

Here in the Old Testament prophets is where Apostle Paul was pulling from about death being swallowed up in victory...

Isa 25:6-9
6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

That is actually about the future marriage supper that Jesus showed as a parable in Matthew 22 and Luke 14. That supper is going to be real, and I mean that literally. For all believing nations God is going to do that. And man I can really understand that as a celebration, because for the believer, the trials and sufferings of this present world which Satan caused God to bring, will be over; there will be much for all nations to rejoice about in The Father and His Son at that time, much more than one today thinks possible.


7 And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.

That idea of the face of the covering cast over all people, the vail spread over all nations, isn't just about some symbolic veil to show mourning. It is about the heavenly dimension being revealed to all, right here on earth. That will be naturally so, because the concept of flesh death will be no more at that time.


8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall He take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

Before this present world, before Satan rebelled against God, there was no death. Satan was then perfect in his ways God revealed in Ezekiel 28. This also is why Revelation 21:4 shows there will be no more death once it and the devil is cast in the future "lake of fire" of Revelation 20:14. But when Jesus returns, that will be the start of the end of the concept of death, for the only type of death remaining then will be the casting into the lake of fire, which Revelation 20:14 calls the "second death". Why the "second death"? Because it will be the death of the spiritual body with soul. That is what the devil and his angels have that will perish in that lake of fire; they were not, nor ever will be, born in the flesh.


9 And it shall be said in that day, 'Lo, This is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us: This is the LORD; we have waited for Him, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation.
KJV

 

[Davy]

Believe me, I understand your argument.

Mortal . . . subject to death . . . is the New Creation spirit mortal? Subject to death? What is your thinking on that?

Much love!

Christ's Salvation will come in stages, we should well know that since we know the John 5:28-29 "resurrection of life" is still yet to happen, and those still alive at Christ's return have yet to go through the 'change' to the "spiritual body". Also, there will be believers on Christ that fell away, especially during the coming tribulation, and those will stand in judgment throughout Christ's "thousand years" reign (Ezek.44). In the future Millennial sanctuary, the Levites who went astray when Israel went astray will not be allowed to approach Christ, but will still be assigned temple duties and serve the people. That shows me the future Millennium is to wipe away the deceptions of the devil of this present world, and open everyone's eyes to see, and ears to hear in that time.

So if believers that fall away did originally receive Jesus Christ as their Saviour, was not their spirit then made a "new creature" like Apostle Paul said? Well, did you not notice that Paul attached a condition with that...

Gal 6:15-16
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
KJV

2 Cor 5:17
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
KJV

The stipulation to be "a new creature" means being in Christ Jesus, walking according to that rule. This is why Jesus showed in Matthew 7 that those who believed on Him saying, "Lord, Lord", but worked iniquity, He will tell them to get away from Him.

That reveals for the faithful, that our soul today, inside our flesh attached to our spirit, has been 'born again' through Christ, and at flesh death passes from death to life (John 5:24; 1 John 3:14). But for those who fall away, I believe they were born again to at their original belief on Christ, yet they will be separated from Christ's elect that will reign with Him.

 

[Davy]

My problem with comments like this is that is presumes that should someone disagree with you on a particular point, well, that means they aren't listening to God's Word.

And that is in my mind very presumptuous.

Much love!

I find the Biblical evidence for the resurrection to a "spiritual body", and the concept of the heavenly dimension in contrast to this earthly fleshy dimension, easy to understand. It is because of sticking to God's Word as written, and not to men's doctrines. Men's philosophy is like the pseudo-science called evolution. As long as one is talking about an already existing earth, evolutionary science sees no problem. When you ask evolutionists how the creation began, the wall limit of their understanding is then raised. Likewise it is with men's doctrines, vs. God's literal Word about the differences between the earthly and the heavenly. Men's doctrines are always trying to put a square peg (fleshy) into a round hole (spirit), when they are two completely separate operations.

 

[Davy]

And in fact, we're taught to focus on the heavenly.

This verse explains it. It is very simple, so much so that many just pass over it and fail to understand how profound and literally revealing it is...

Heb 11:3
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
KJV

One of the main laws of thermodynamics in physics is that material matter can neither be created nor destroyed (meaning man can't destroy nor create it). Matter can only change its state (gas, liquid, solid, vapor). What this reveals is that material matter did not... create itself. In other words, matter did not originate from matter.

And that simply means material matter, which is about this earthly dimension, had to have been created by something else besides material matter. It means that just the simple fact that material matter exists, that proves something else besides matter created it. That is about The Invisible God Who created it from that other dimension of Spirit.

So which realm is actually the more real? This earthly dimension we live in today, or the heavenly dimension where our heavenly Father dwells? Since God is a Spirit, the heavenly would be the more real, yet God said He created this earth to be inhabited (Isa.45). And Gen.2 shows His River was once upon this earth, feeding four other literal rivers on this earth. And He has promised to literally dwell with us in the future. And He said He chose Jerusalem for to dwell there forever, which that new Jerusalem is to come down out of Heaven to this earth. The Big Picture? The heavenly and earthly dimensions are going to be joined together in the same time and space when Jesus returns.

 

[marks]

So which realm is actually the more real? This earthly dimension we live in today, or the heavenly dimension where our heavenly Father dwells? Since God is a Spirit, the heavenly would be the more real,

Keep in mind though that the heavens aren't there to be a home for God, He created both heaven and earth and all that is.

The terestrial and the celestial are both in the same way creations of God. Maybe originally a single realm, then divided into two after the Fall. I don't know about that.

The heavens and earth are, I think, both there for us to dwell in. But to lift us out of the corruption that now is in the world, we are to focus on the heavenly, where we are complete in Jesus, hid with Him, to be revealed with Him when He is revealed.

I have the idea in the ages to come we will be in a single realm that encompasses both celestial and terestrial, again, I don't really know.

Much love!

 

[Davy]

See, there ya' go . . . you've made the assumption that my ideas were put there by other men, instead of what I myself read and learn as I read and study the Bible for years and years and years . . .

If you believe the resurrection is to a new flesh body, then you are heeding doctrines of men, and not God's Word. The idea that we literally sleep in a casket in the ground is even a worse ancient ignorant doctrine of men.

 

[Davy]

Keep in mind though that the heavens aren't there to be a home for God, He created both heaven and earth and all that is.

The terestrial and the celestial are both in the same way creations of God. Maybe originally a single realm, then divided into two after the Fall. I don't know about that.

The heavens and earth are, I think, both there for us to dwell in. But to lift us out of the corruption that now is in the world, we are to focus on the heavenly, where we are complete in Jesus, hid with Him, to be revealed with Him when He is revealed.

I have the idea in the ages to come we will be in a single realm that encompasses both celestial and terestrial, again, I don't really know.

Much love!

You confuse the words terestrial and celestial in comparison, because both of those point to God's material creation. Celestial only means the sky above the earth and beyond, not the actual Heavenly dimension which is behind a veil. Your confusion on that reveals you don't really understand the difference between the earthly and the heavenly. I realize many Jewish brethren in Christ still believe a fleshy connection with the heavenly realm, assigning it to the sky atmosphere around the earth only. That's not where God's Heavenly abode is; it's in a different dimension.

An experiment: take a rectangular object and how many sides do you see? No matter how you turn it, you will only see 3 sides. However, there are actually 3 more sides you cannot see, and likewise no matter how you turn it, you cannot see all 6 sides 'at the same time'. (only in a mirror can you see all 6 sides at one time). Just as with that example, the Heavenly dimension is behind a veil that we cannot see today. It is just as real as this earthly dimension; it's just that we cannot see it, yet. When Jesus returns, everyone will see it.

 

[marks]

Just as with that example, the Heavenly dimension is behind a veil that we cannot see today.

One of the most wonderful things about this veil, is that Jesus has gone through it, and is to us an anchor, sure and steadfast, holding within the veil

In every high and stormy gale my anchor holds within the veil, on Christ the solid Rock I stand!

Unseen, yet right here with me, Jesus, united to me, forever, unbreakable bond of love, like we're grasping each other's arms, won't let go, He never will let go! Anchored by Jesus, mind stayed upon God.

Unseen, but more real than heaven or earth!

He left an empty tomb, ate food with His disciples, Touch Me! I'm not a ghost! I have flesh and bone, He said, and ascended into heaven. We will be the same.

Much love!