Faithful and Just to Forgive . . .

[CharismaticLady]

Ye theres many of them around.

We just have to remember that the gifts of God are irrevocable (Rm. 11). So even if you start out strong, it is more on how you end up. We must grow, not decline, and we must endure to the end.

 

[Davy]

Hi Davy,

Just to be clear, I like to quote just that particular part that I'm responding to. I find that long and complex arguments often turn on a single error, and in this instance, I believe there is an error right here.

It's not that I'm faulting someone's lexical homework because I just want to give a different answer that you find false, rather, I find different answers as I look at the Scriptures drawing from my Koine Greek schooling, and subsequent studies of the past 20 years or so.

You assume that I don't have good reason to say what I do, and that I must just be intellectually dishonest, prefering my own response over true understanding of the Greek.

You really couldn't be further from the truth about me.

And now you're trying to infer 'only' Greek scholars can understand The New Testament. Doesn't matter how much you've studied Biblical Greek, all that depends on the school, the teachers and the manuscripts if you want to go that technical route for your evidence.

Yet we don't need all that, because Apostle Paul made it very simple in those 1 Corinthians 15 verses about exactly... what 'kind' of body the resurrection is. I posted what he showed, which the KJV translators did a good job with in English...

1 Cor 15:49
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
KJV

It is useless to argue over what Paul meant in the above because he made it so simple. If you want to deny the future resurrection to a "spiritual body", the "image of the heavenly", then that is your choice.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Why, dont your trust Jesus to see you through. Jesus isnt worried, Gods not worried and so therefore I am not worried,

It is finished.

I'm not worried. I never go against my conscience, so as 1 John 3:18-24 says, I have assurance. And I'll do the same tomorrow, and for the rest of my life. Anyone who keeps sinning can't do that in good conscience. If they can, then they are a sociopath.

 

[Davy]

I suggest holding to the truth of this passage also:

Romans 8
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

The same One who raised Jesus from the dead will also "make alive your mortal bodies".

And I suggest holding the simple and plain reading.

Much love!

Because you believe the resurrection body is to a new flesh body, that influences how you interpret that Romans 8 Scripture, when that Romans 8:11 "mortal bodies" is actually about our "spiritual body". Our flesh body is not what is quickened by The Spirit. Our flesh is assigned to perish, not be eternal.

John 3:6-7
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, 'Ye must be born again.'
KJV

Flesh cannot... be born of The Spirit, for flesh is of this earthly dimension, and to that realm it answers to.

Moreover, our spirit inside our flesh is mortal, in a liable to die condition until the resurrection when Jesus returns, or when those in Christ pass from death unto life (John 5:24). The spirit of the unbelieving remains in a liable to die condition even after they are resurrected. It's related to our spirit inside our flesh being "born again" of The Spirit.

 

[mjrhealth]

I'm not worried. I never go against my conscience, so as 1 John 3:18-24 says, I have assurance. And I'll do the same tomorrow, and for the rest of my life. Anyone who keeps sinning can't do that in good conscience. If they can, then they are a sociopath.

Anyone whos mind is on sin is not walking in faith but the flesh, that is where the devil loves to keep people.

 

[mjrhealth]

We just have to remember that the gifts of God are irrevocable (Rm. 11). So even if you start out strong, it is more on how you end up. We must grow, not decline, and we must endure to the end.

Something to do with,

1Co_1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

One can only grow when one is being fed, and if one is not in Christ than one is not eating the bread that is life.

Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
Joh 6:48 I am that bread of life.
Joh 6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
Joh 6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
Joh 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Im not concerned.

 

[marks]

"mortal bodies" is actually about our "spiritual body"

OK.

I find this routinely when I disagree with someone, that there comes a point when the discussion comes to a particular verse, and someone saying somthing like, "Well, it SAYS 'mortal body', but what it MEANS is 'spiritual body'."

It says THIS but what it really means is THAT.

Curious . . . if God wanted to tell us that the Spirit would give life to our mortal bodies, how do you suppose He would say that?

And why should we not accept it with the simplicity of what it says?

Much love!

 

[CharismaticLady]

Anyone whos mind is on sin is not walking in faith but the flesh, that is where the devil loves to keep people.

As long as you go to bed with a clear conscience because you are keeping the commandments of Jesus and are pleasing in His sight, I won't worry about you.

For myself, I don't worry about sin. Sin doesn't enter my mind. But I'm a teacher. Not to the world, but to those lost in false doctrines in the Church. Understand? The misconception of some that they can sin in the flesh to their hearts content and be saved, is my number one focus. I don't want anyone to be lost because of some of the teachers in the Reformation whose teachings are still infiltrating the Church. I hope you are not one of them. You haven't been very forthcoming about yourself, just quoting scriptures that I wonder if you understand and are applying correctly to your life. I'm an open book. But others hide themselves behind a barrage of wishful thinking.

 

[marks]

And now you're trying to infer 'only' Greek scholars can understand The New Testament.

That's not what I'm saying.

You're slapping me down over the Greek words, and you are the one posting the Greek. I'm responding to that, and yes, I did let myself respond with some of my resume. My bad! I don't prefer to do that. It's not about me.

If you want to deny the future resurrection to a "spiritual body", the "image of the heavenly", then that is your choice.

An invitation to intellectual dishonesty?

Believe whatever I want?

I don't deny our resurrection, and into a celestial body.

2 Corinthians 5
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

We shall be clothed upon, not being found naked, our mortality "swallowed up" of life.

Much love!

 

[marks]

It is the Spirit empowering us that takes us out of that carnal fleshly nature and we become slaves of righteousness. What we must do then is never grieve or quench the Spirit, our source.

Question . . . if being slaves to righteousness in Christ means that we will never sin intentionally again, how would we ever grieve or quench the Holy Spirit?

Much love!

 

[CharismaticLady]

Question . . . if being slaves to righteousness in Christ means that we will never sin intentionally again, how would we ever grieve or quench the Holy Spirit?

Much love!

Slaves to righteousness is from Romans 6

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now (you) present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Mark, we still have free will.

1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? ... 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

There is fact; and there is the mind catching up to that fact.
Proverbs 23:7
For as he thinks in his heart, so is he.

This is why whoever started the false doctrine that "we will always sin" (until the second coming) has planted that defeatism in our hearts so that we can never believe we are free from sin, so keep acting out. I believe in my heart I am free from sin and act accordingly.

 

[marks]

Because you believe the resurrection body is to a new flesh body, that influences how you interpret that Romans 8 Scripture, when that Romans 8:11 "mortal bodies" is actually about our "spiritual body". Our flesh body is not what is quickened by The Spirit. Our flesh is assigned to perish, not be eternal.

John 3:6-7
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, 'Ye must be born again.'
KJV

Flesh cannot... be born of The Spirit, for flesh is of this earthly dimension, and to that realm it answers to.

Moreover, our spirit inside our flesh is mortal, in a liable to die condition until the resurrection when Jesus returns, or when those in Christ pass from death unto life (John 5:24). The spirit of the unbelieving remains in a liable to die condition even after they are resurrected. It's related to our spirit inside our flesh being "born again" of The Spirit.

It's just like with Jesus. The tomb was empty. No body leftovers.

Our bodies are changed, transformed, and this transformation is described in the same terms as our spiritual renew, a "putting on" of the new. Clothed upon.

Job 19
25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

My flesh, yes, and a new kind of flesh, yes, transformed.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Slaves to righteousness is from Romans 6

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now (you) present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Mark, we still have free will.

1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? ... 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

There is fact; and there is the mind catching up to that fact.
Proverbs 23:7
For as he thinks in his heart, so is he.

This is why whoever started the false doctrine that "we will always sin" (until the second coming) has planted that defeatism in our hearts so that we can never believe we are free from sin, so keep acting out. I believe in my heart I am free from sin and act accordingly.

Amen, amen, and Amen!

How many times did Jesus tell people along the lines of, Be it to you according to your faith?

Much love!

 

[CharismaticLady]

Amen, amen, and Amen!

How many times did Jesus tell people along the lines of, Be it to you according to your faith?

Much love!

Really? You mean we are finally on the same page??? Hallelujah!

Now if we can just see eye to eye on trespasses. LOL

 

[marks]

Really? You mean we are finally on the same page??? Hallelujah!

Now if we can just see eye to eye on trespasses. LOL

We've been very close to the same page a long time I think. That's why you were having trouble remembering what we disagreed over, I think.

Much love!

 

[CharismaticLady]

We've been very close to the same page a long time I think. That's why you were having trouble remembering what we disagreed over, I think.

Much love!

Where did you get the idea that all sin is willful? Did you go to seminary?

 

[marks]

Where did you get the idea that all sin is willful? Did you go to seminary?

I believe that we are able to resist any temptation, and that the will to resist represents our choosing, that we can choose to not sin, therefore, if in fact we can choose to not sin, then that means that if we do sin, we've allowed it to happen.

I'm not talking about that we accidentally wander across the property line, there being no fence. That would be the trespass in your terms I think. What we don't know, we don't know.

But lying, stealing, fearing, whatever, we can choose in faith to not do these.

A lie may pop out in a moment of weakness, but that's what it is, a moment of faltering in our faith.

"Be ye holy, even as I am holy." Does He tell us to do what we cannot do? Or does He give us the power to do it even as we obey, just like, "Stretch forth your hand".

Much love!

 

[CharismaticLady]

What we don't know, we don't know.

Exactly, but it is more than walking on someone's property. It is any unknown offense taken by another person (not God).

 

[marks]

Exactly, but it is more than walking on someone's property. It is any unknown offense taken by another person (not God).

I know, I just picked that for example.

 

[mjrhealth]

As long as you go to bed with a clear conscience because you are keeping the commandments of Jesus and are pleasing in His sight, I won't worry about you.

For myself, I don't worry about sin. Sin doesn't enter my mind. But I'm a teacher. Not to the world, but to those lost in false doctrines in the Church. Understand? The misconception of some that they can sin in the flesh to their hearts content and be saved, is my number one focus. I don't want anyone to be lost because of some of the teachers in the Reformation whose teachings are still infiltrating the Church. I hope you are not one of them. You haven't been very forthcoming about yourself, just quoting scriptures that I wonder if you understand and are applying correctly to your life. I'm an open book. But others hide themselves behind a barrage of wishful thinking.

Well I guess its a good thing my salvation is not dependent on how good I am but how Good He is . So Im glad He is far better than any man,