Faithful and Just to Forgive . . .

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,356
21,569
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I'm at the start of reading your response, and will read the rest later, but this I want to clear up right now. You misunderstand what I believe to be the second type of sin. We commit sins that are unknown to us. We have no knowledge of them as being sins, but they make us less than perfect. They are sins, but trespasses, not willful sins of lawlessness. Because we don't know about them, they cannot be repented of, but in the Lord's Prayer this type of sin (which is the only type in the prayer) is a general forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.

OK, I understand.

And the next verse is the condition. If you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father in Heaven forgive your trespasses. So to keep a tight ship, just always be in a forgiving mode, or to forgive early. Paul says to be angry, but don't let the sun go down on your anger. Anger is not a sin, but holding a grudge is.

Forgiveness received based on forgiving others is, in my view, salvation based on works, in that, if you don't do the act towards another that is required, in this case forgiving others from your heart, you will not be forgiven your sins, and you will remain under condemnation.

Jesus taught those under the law that they would not be forgiven unless they forgave. But to the New Covenant redeemed he says, "forgive others as you have been forgiven." In the one case, forgiveness for ourselves depends on our forgiving others. In the other case, forgiving others is because we ourselves have been forgiven.

Much love!
 
Last edited:

CharismaticLady

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2019
7,784
3,150
113
76
Tennessee
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I believe this distinctions are relevant within the old covenant, but that Jesus frees us from All sins.

Much love!

If Jesus freed us from all sin then why is He still cleansing sin while walking in the Spirit? If you are free, you are not committing known sin in the first place. He doesn't say His blood continues to cleanse lawless sins of the flesh while His children commit them. We wouldn't be His child if we are still a slave to sin. John 8:34-36. So it has to be what John distinguishes in the NEW COVENANT sins not unto death. 1 John 5:16-17. And it is the Old Covenant, our schoolmaster, that defines what they are. Unintentional sins unknowingly committed - trespasses. He didn't teach us the definition if we are to unlearn it and just arbitrarily say sin is sin without knowing the difference in how they are cleansed.

1. Sins unto death - willfully breaking a law of God (murder, stealing, lying, adultery, etc.) - repentance is required, and a turning away from the sin. In the Old Testament, there was no sacrifice that covered them. They were killed, thus sins unto DEATH. New Covenant, they must truly repent

2. Sins not unto death - unintentional sins unwittingly committed - sacrifice covered them in the Old Testament starting at Numbers 15:22. Not killed, thus sins NOT unto death. New Covenant sacrifice would be for us to forgive others their trespasses against us, and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all of them. It is in context with the type of sin in the Lord's Prayer.
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,356
21,569
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
If Jesus freed us from all sin then why is He still cleansing sin while walking in the Spirit? If you are free, you are not committing known sin in the first place. He doesn't say His blood continues to cleanse lawless sins of the flesh while His children commit them. We wouldn't be His child if we are still a slave to sin. John 8:34-36. So it has to be what John distinguishes in the NEW COVENANT sins not unto death. 1 John 5:16-17. And it is the Old Covenant, our schoolmaster, that defines what they are. Unintentional sins unknowingly committed - trespasses. He didn't teach us the definition if we are to unlearn it and just arbitrarily say sin is sin without knowing the difference in how they are cleansed.

1. Sins unto death - willfully breaking a law of God (murder, stealing, lying, adultery, etc.) - repentance is required, and a turning away from the sin. In the Old Testament, there was no sacrifice that covered them. They were killed, thus sins unto DEATH. New Covenant, they must truly repent

2. Sins not unto death - unintentional sins unwittingly committed - sacrifice covered them in the Old Testament starting at Numbers 15:22. Not killed, thus sins NOT unto death. New Covenant sacrifice would be for us to forgive others their trespasses against us, and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all of them. It is in context with the type of sin in the Lord's Prayer.

Like I said . . . our difference seems to be in how we view sin.

That which is not of faith is sin. Walk in faith and there is no sin.

much love!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Helen

CharismaticLady

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2019
7,784
3,150
113
76
Tennessee
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
So you believe when Jesus was teaching the disciples the Lord's Prayer and the next verse that was under the Old Covenant and that He was teaching works? What Jesus taught His disciples, including the Sermon on the Mount was introducing the New Covenant, like the writing of His will, that would not come into effect until the reading of the Will after His death.

Mark, believe the Bible.
 

CharismaticLady

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2019
7,784
3,150
113
76
Tennessee
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Like I said . . . our difference seems to be in how we view sin.

That which is not of faith is sin. Walk in faith and there is no sin.

much love!

Depending what entails 'faith' I agree. If you believe Jesus is the Christ and know all about Him, even the demons know that. I'm not saying that is what you believe, but unfortunately some do. I believe 1 John 3:18-24, having to do with not going against your conscience, which to me is the same as that which is not of faith is sin; and if you walk in the Spirit, you are not under the law is the same as walk in faith and there is no sin. Do you agree?
 
Last edited:

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,356
21,569
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
What Jesus taught His disciples, including the Sermon on the Mount was introducing the New Covenant,
Jesus taught the final coffin nail for those who thought they could be righteous under the Law. Now, in the new creation, we surpass the sermon on the mount as it surpassed the law it illuminated. We don't go two miles. We just go.

The new law of love is to love as I (Jesus) have loved you.

The law was to love others as you love yourself, and Jesus showed how deep that went, both for man, and for God. If you want to be righteous under Law, you forgive in your heart, or you will NOT be forgiven. All the commandments are broken in a sort of entitlement, if you will, to choose our own gods, or ways to worship them, or getting what we want, that we feel entitled to, to hold grudges, lording over others.

The law commands living contrary to that entitlement, and requires conformance to its precepts, rules, and rituals.

In the new creation we are transformed into beings that have no sense of entitlement, and instead, are filled with overflowing goodness, wanting good for others, and knowing all good things received are from our Father of Lights. We don't have to wait for Him, He is here. But we may need to endure until the time is right so we will be able to see the fulness of His gift.

In the meantime, as we wait, there can sometimes be a tendency to forget about this new reality, and instead drift back into the mindset of the flesh which we still occupy. That flesh, which we will occupy as long as we are in this world, is not reformed. There's no help for it, it's fundamentally corrupted by sin, and cannot be fixed. That is the condemnation of humanity, and our need for being born again of a new creation, more a generation of God.

If we relax our mind of Christ, the mind of the flesh can begin to be heard, we can listen, subtle at first, the rent is due, it's never hurt there, that was a jerky thing to say!, whatever it is that starts the mind to shift, and the mind of the flesh begins to exert it's influence, worry and fear, angers, lusts for whatever, all the things the flesh always does. Let it go too far at some point we say to ourselves "wait a minute!" and we stop with that nonsense, and for the average Christian, I think, go through this other process of self recriminations and guilt, feelings of separation from God, feelings of low worth and unloveability.

Feeling the need to be better, I've got to stop doing this! I've got to do that!! Man oh man how could I have done that again??

Then we come back to our faith, and remember Jesus' death for us, and our life in Him, and return to standing in His grace.

Or best still, those triggers appear in front of us, and we know that God is here with me now, He sees this too, He loves me. He made everything, and He made all of us, so we can be in love with Him.

So I have bills, and I have pains, and I have issues, and my Father loves me. If I ever lose sight of that, for a moment, for an hour, whatever it may be, that time is lost, there may be other repercussions, and God has effective means of discipling us, not always fun, but always effective, and afterward the peaceable fruit of righteousness.

But keeping in mind, in my faith, this is my reality . . . my Father is here, He created me, and He loves me, sin is far far away. His glory is all in all, He is all in all. But the mind does need to be renewed into this, and it can be a bumpy path. But He is faithful Who will do it.

Much love!
 

CharismaticLady

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2019
7,784
3,150
113
76
Tennessee
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Jesus taught the final coffin nail for those who thought they could be righteous under the Law. Now, in the new creation, we surpass the sermon on the mount as it surpassed the law it illuminated. We don't go two miles. We just go.

Haven't you discerned what Jesus is saying in the Sermon on the Mount? "You have heard it said of old (Old Covenant) thou shalt not..., BUT I SAY UNTO YOU...(New Covenant.) Curious. Is this your theory or what denomination?

Good night, Mark. I've had a very interesting day, so again I will have to read the rest later, and the other post I didn't finish either. LOL Going to bed.
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,356
21,569
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
what Jesus is saying in the Sermon on the Mount? "You have heard it said of old (Old Covenant) thou shalt not..., BUT I SAY UNTO YOU...(New Covenant.)

Matthew 5
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

Jesus is teaching the commandments.
He references what the general thought was. Thou shalt not kill, and if you do you may be judged.
He gives His commentary on the commandment as it's Author. It's not just physical death in view, but what is in your heart that brings condemnation.
He gives a practical application of His teaching. Don't just bring your sacrifice to the temple, to the altar, but first be reconciled to your brother in the true application of the Commandment, and then offer your sacrifice.

This is a teaching given to those under Law.

One of the least of these commandments. Someone who truly abides by this teaching is therefore bound to keep and teach the least of these commandments, offering sacrifices, abstaining from foods, all of it.

I don't see this as teaching the new covenant. But I often see it presented as a "new" law for the new covenant Christian, and I don't think that is correct.

Much love!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Helen and Nancy

CharismaticLady

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2019
7,784
3,150
113
76
Tennessee
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Matthew 5
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

Jesus is teaching the commandments.
He references what the general thought was. Thou shalt not kill, and if you do you may be judged.
He gives His commentary on the commandment as it's Author. It's not just physical death in view, but what is in your heart that brings condemnation.
He gives a practical application of His teaching. Don't just bring your sacrifice to the temple, to the altar, but first be reconciled to your brother in the true application of the Commandment, and then offer your sacrifice.

This is a teaching given to those under Law.

One of the least of these commandments. Someone who truly abides by this teaching is therefore bound to keep and teach the least of these commandments, offering sacrifices, abstaining from foods, all of it.

I don't see this as teaching the new covenant. But I often see it presented as a "new" law for the new covenant Christian, and I don't think that is correct.

Much love!

The Old Covenant had to do with actions: murder. New Covenant - love. Opposite:hate The New Covenant are laws written on our hearts.

Hebrews 9:
13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. 16 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives. 18 Therefore not even the first covenant was dedicated without blood.

This is a will and testament. The first covenant was written with the finger of God. The New Covenant, or the writing of the will are the words of Jesus in His ministry. But the covenant itself didn't come into affect until it was read, after the death of the Testator. Day of Pentecost. And, @charity there is a New Covenant, and first given to Israel, which Gentiles are grafted into. The Cup of the New Testament/Covenant is the sign of this new covenant, making the sign of the Old Covenant, the Sabbath Exodus 31:13, obsolete.
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,356
21,569
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
One of the clearest displays of the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant, which at the same time tells us how to understand the Sermon on the Mount, concerns forgiveness.

Under the covenant of Law, the one who does these shall live by them. You are accepted if you perform the required acts. Remember, this is not always behavioral, the first commandment is to love God, which includes behavior, but begins in the heart. God also commanded to love others.

In the sermon on the mount, Jesus taught, forgive, or you will not be forgiven. Acceptence is predicated on performance.

In Ephesians 4:32
And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Having been forgiven, now we are to forgive others.

Under the Law, our being forgiven could only happen if we forgave others first.

In the new covenant, our forgiveness is not based on our performance. And instead, we are told we are to forgive others, not so that we will be forgiven ourselves, but BECAUSE we have been forgiven ourselves.

Under the Law, perfomance, and then acceptance/justification. Under grace, acceptance/justification, THEN performance. Totally different.

Much love!
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,356
21,569
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The Old Covenant had to do with actions: murder. New Covenant - love. Opposite:hate The New Covenant are laws written on our hearts.

Hebrews 9:
13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. 16 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives. 18 Therefore not even the first covenant was dedicated without blood.

This is a will and testament. The first covenant was written with the finger of God. The New Covenant, or the writing of the will are the words of Jesus in His ministry. But the covenant itself didn't come into affect until it was read, after the death of the Testator. Day of Pentecost. And, @charity there is a New Covenant, and first given to Israel, which Gentiles are grafted into. The Cup of the New Testament/Covenant is the sign of this new covenant, making the sign of the Old Covenant, the Sabbath Exodus 31:13, obsolete.
We could only die with Christ when He had died. We could only be raised with Christ after He raised.

The sign of the new covenant, that opens an interesting topic! We are sealed by the Holy Spirit, that comes to mind. Circumcision = physical sign . . .

Much love!
 

CharismaticLady

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2019
7,784
3,150
113
76
Tennessee
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
We could only die with Christ when He had died. We could only be raised with Christ after He raised.

The sign of the new covenant, that opens an interesting topic! We are sealed by the Holy Spirit, that comes to mind. Circumcision = physical sign . . .

Much love!

What are you saying about circumcision? It is not the sign of the New Covenant. And just a general note: all covenants have a sign of the covenant.
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,356
21,569
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
What are you saying about circumcision? It is not the sign of the New Covenant. And just a general note: all covenants have a sign of the covenant.
The old covenant dealt with things in a material way for the most part, and the sign of circumcision is a material sign. The new covenant is not the same, and is not founded in material things.

Doing the act of circumcision fit with the keeping of the law, doing all the acts required.

Now our circumcision is of the heart, where it can't be seen.

Anyone can be baptized, anyone can eat and drink communion (inadvisably), but only the reborn live a new life.

It's an interesting thought, what is the sign of the new covenant, comparable to circumcision in the old?

Much love!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Pisteuo

CharismaticLady

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2019
7,784
3,150
113
76
Tennessee
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Our covenant is based on the blood of Jesus. What represents the blood of Jesus in the Church today? The answer is the sign of the covenant.
 

CharismaticLady

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2019
7,784
3,150
113
76
Tennessee
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I had in mind that teaches us about the sign of the covenant.

Much love!

1 Corinthians 11:25
25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood.

on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”

The bread is not the sign of the new covenant, only the blood as it represents radification of the new covenant.

The Sabbath (a holy convocation Leviticus 23) was put in the Ten Commandments (the covenant) as the sign of the covenant.
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,356
21,569
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
1 Corinthians 11:25
25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood.

on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”

The bread is not the sign of the new covenant, only the blood as it represents radification of the new covenant.

The Sabbath (a holy convocation Leviticus 23) was put in the Ten Commandments (the covenant) as the sign of the covenant.
Thank you, CL!

The cup and the bread, the Lord's supper, this is a sign? I can't seem to find anything in the Bible saying that.

Circumcision, and, you've mentioned the Sabbath, yes, that's good to look at too.

But of the Lord's supper, I'm not finding anything speaking of it as a sign, not saying there's nothing there, just I'm not finding it.

Circumcision is a sign in that anyone can see if someone has been circumcised. So this shows clearly whether someone has kept the requirement.

Sharing the Lord's supper, however, how does this distinguish the believer from the unbeliever? I've seen acknowledged unbelievers partake. Again, I don't suggest that!

The Sabbath, this is good!

Exodus 31:13
Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you.

The sabbath is a sign between God and Israel, and specifically so that they would know that God sanctifies them. Beautiful!!!

Our sabbath now, we are to rest from our works, this constant surveillance of our selves, trying to keep ourselves on the safe side through good behavior, well, it is God Who sanctifies us.

It's kind of like saying the sabbath rest in Christ is a sign for ourselves that God is He Who sanctifies us.

Much love!