Faithful and Just to Forgive . . .

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CharismaticLady

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Thank you, CL!

The cup and the bread, the Lord's supper, this is a sign? I can't seem to find anything in the Bible saying that.

Circumcision, and, you've mentioned the Sabbath, yes, that's good to look at too.

But of the Lord's supper, I'm not finding anything speaking of it as a sign, not saying there's nothing there, just I'm not finding it.

Circumcision is a sign in that anyone can see if someone has been circumcised. So this shows clearly whether someone has kept the requirement.

Sharing the Lord's supper, however, how does this distinguish the believer from the unbeliever? I've seen acknowledged unbelievers partake. Again, I don't suggest that!

The Sabbath, this is good!

Exodus 31:13
Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you.

The sabbath is a sign between God and Israel, and specifically so that they would know that God sanctifies them. Beautiful!!!

Our sabbath now, we are to rest from our works, this constant surveillance of our selves, trying to keep ourselves on the safe side through good behavior, well, it is God Who sanctifies us.

It's kind of like saying the sabbath rest in Christ is a sign for ourselves that God is He Who sanctifies us.

Much love!

The Lord's Supper is not the sign, and neither is the bread. Only the cup which represents the BLOOD of Jesus. And you are right. An unbeliever taking part is taking it unworthily. Just as a Christian would if they had unconfessed willful sin in them.

The Mosaic covenant is the Ten Commandments, Exodus 34:28, with the sign, the Sabbath, Exodus 31:13 as your quoted.

Circumcision is a sign, but not of the Mosaic covenant. It is the sign of the Abrahamic covenant, 430 years before the Mosaic Covenant. Abraham was promised that his Seed would be the coming Messiah. What does a man's seed come through? That is why it is that member of a man's body that is circumcised.
 

101G

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addressing the OP only. haven't read all the posts, but I believe I see your sticking point. not saying that any is right or wrong, but consider this.
Romans 3:21 "But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Romans 3:22 "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Romans 3:24 "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Romans 3:25 "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God".

sins that are "PAST".
what God did was just as Adam was without sin untill he did. by coming to Christ, God by his death, the son, Jesus, removes all sin from you, hence born again. so now you're like the First Adam in the Garden, without sin. being born again, we grow. and any baby will make mistakes while growing, our parents are responsible, (as God who chastise us) . but once grown and knowing right from wrong. now one come aware of oneself as well as God and other. God has taken care of our sins that are past when we came to christ Jesus. now that we're in christ, with a NEW LIFE, all our sins are remiss/forgiven/taken care of. what now if we commit a sin? 1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness". thank God for the new covenant. because, 1 John 1:8 "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us". as long as we're in these flesh bodies we are at risk of a sin. but having christ as our MEDIATOR, and advocate, if we sin we can come to him our Great hight Priest and confess our sins. 1 John 2:1 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous"... WHY, next verse, 1 John 2:2 "And he is the propitiation for our sins: (just as in Roman 3:25) and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world". by coming to christ we have these rights, (forgivness), under the NEW COVENANT. again thank God for the Lord Jesus and the new covant, we need to know our rights. if... if we sin. as christian we shouldn't be sinning that much, but if we do we have an advocate, or in the legal arena better known as counsel for the defence. and the only time one needs a counsel is when one is in trouble.

Hoped that helped.

PICJAG.
 

marks

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The Lord's Supper is not the sign, and neither is the bread. Only the cup which represents the BLOOD of Jesus. And you are right. An unbeliever taking part is taking it unworthily. Just as a Christian would if they had unconfessed willful sin in them.

The Mosaic covenant is the Ten Commandments, Exodus 34:28, with the sign, the Sabbath, Exodus 31:13 as your quoted.

Circumcision is a sign, but not of the Mosaic covenant. It is the sign of the Abrahamic covenant, 430 years before the Mosaic Covenant. Abraham was promised that his Seed would be the coming Messiah. What does a man's seed come through? That is why it is that member of a man's body that is circumcised.
But where in Scripture do you see sharing the cup being a sign of the New Covenant? Particularly in the same way as either circumcision or the Sabbath?

Much love!
 

CharismaticLady

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But where in Scripture do you see sharing the cup being a sign of the New Covenant? Particularly in the same way as either circumcision or the Sabbath?

Much love!

Just as the Abrahamic covenant of the Seed would have something to do with the seed as its sign (the circumcising of the member of the body where the seed comes through), so the New Covenant was ratified by the blood of Jesus, thus the cup which represents the blood of Jesus. The sign is always something in relationship to the covenant.

Hebrews 10:29
counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing

Just like the rainbow has something to do with rain, and was the sign of the covenant that God would never destroy the earth with water. (Next time it will be fire.)
 
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marks

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Just as the Abrahamic covenant of the Seed would have something to do with the seed as its sign (the circumcising of the member of the body where the seed comes through), so the New Covenant was ratified by the blood of Jesus, thus the cup which represents the blood of Jesus. The sign is always something in relationship to the covenant.

Hebrews 10:29
counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing

Just like the rainbow has something to do with rain, and was the sign of the covenant that God would never destroy the earth with water. (Next time it will be fire.)
Meaning no offence, only that this sounds like something you've concluded, that the cup is the sign of the New Covenant, rather than something specifically taught.

The rainbow, as you've mentioned, this is specifically told to us:

Genesis 9:13 "I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth."

Much love!
 

CharismaticLady

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Meaning no offence, only that this sounds like something you've concluded, that the cup is the sign of the New Covenant, rather than something specifically taught.

The rainbow, as you've mentioned, this is specifically told to us:

Genesis 9:13 "I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth."

Much love!

It is called the Cup OF THE NEW COVENANT. Those last words indicate to me the sign of the covenant. All covenants have a sign of the covenant, and this is all I could find that would fulfill that requirement. What would you think would be the covenant's sign? The Lord's Supper, but it is usually just one thing. Maybe baptism. But "of the New Covenant" convinced me it was the cup, because blood is what we are sanctified by.
 
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marks

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What would you think would be the covenant's sign?
I've been thinking about that very question. Is there a sign? And what is it?

The signs of circumcision and the Sabbath point me in a direction, one a sign for others, the other a sign to themselves.

To my thinking, the only sign for others is a changed life. The sign for ourselves is the Holy Spirit in us. The seal, the earnest of our inheritance.

Much love!
 
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CharismaticLady

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I've been thinking about that very question. Is there a sign? And what is it?

The signs of circumcision and the Sabbath point me in a direction, one a sign for others, the other a sign to themselves.

To my thinking, the only sign for others is a changed life. The sign for ourselves is the Holy Spirit in us. The seal, the earnest of our inheritance.

Much love!

It is something outward. Like a sacrament.
 

Helen

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Jesus taught the final coffin nail for those who thought they could be righteous under the Law. Now, in the new creation, we surpass the sermon on the mount as it surpassed the law it illuminated. We don't go two miles. We just go.

The new law of love is to love as I (Jesus) have loved you.

The law was to love others as you love yourself, and Jesus showed how deep that went, both for man, and for God. If you want to be righteous under Law, you forgive in your heart, or you will NOT be forgiven. All the commandments are broken in a sort of entitlement, if you will, to choose our own gods, or ways to worship them, or getting what we want, that we feel entitled to, to hold grudges, lording over others.

The law commands living contrary to that entitlement, and requires conformance to its precepts, rules, and rituals.

In the new creation we are transformed into beings that have no sense of entitlement, and instead, are filled with overflowing goodness, wanting good for others, and knowing all good things received are from our Father of Lights. We don't have to wait for Him, He is here. But we may need to endure until the time is right so we will be able to see the fulness of His gift.

In the meantime, as we wait, there can sometimes be a tendency to forget about this new reality, and instead drift back into the mindset of the flesh which we still occupy. That flesh, which we will occupy as long as we are in this world, is not reformed. There's no help for it, it's fundamentally corrupted by sin, and cannot be fixed. That is the condemnation of humanity, and our need for being born again of a new creation, more a generation of God.

If we relax our mind of Christ, the mind of the flesh can begin to be heard, we can listen, subtle at first, the rent is due, it's never hurt there, that was a jerky thing to say!, whatever it is that starts the mind to shift, and the mind of the flesh begins to exert it's influence, worry and fear, angers, lusts for whatever, all the things the flesh always does. Let it go too far at some point we say to ourselves "wait a minute!" and we stop with that nonsense, and for the average Christian, I think, go through this other process of self recriminations and guilt, feelings of separation from God, feelings of low worth and unloveability.

Feeling the need to be better, I've got to stop doing this! I've got to do that!! Man oh man how could I have done that again??

Then we come back to our faith, and remember Jesus' death for us, and our life in Him, and return to standing in His grace.

Or best still, those triggers appear in front of us, and we know that God is here with me now, He sees this too, He loves me. He made everything, and He made all of us, so we can be in love with Him.

So I have bills, and I have pains, and I have issues, and my Father loves me. If I ever lose sight of that, for a moment, for an hour, whatever it may be, that time is lost, there may be other repercussions, and God has effective means of discipling us, not always fun, but always effective, and afterward the peaceable fruit of righteousness.

But keeping in mind, in my faith, this is my reality . . . my Father is here, He created me, and He loves me, sin is far far away. His glory is all in all, He is all in all. But the mind does need to be renewed into this, and it can be a bumpy path. But He is faithful Who will do it.

Much love!

Amen Mark...good word bro. :)
 
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Helen

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Matthew 5
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

Jesus is teaching the commandments.
He references what the general thought was. Thou shalt not kill, and if you do you may be judged.
He gives His commentary on the commandment as it's Author. It's not just physical death in view, but what is in your heart that brings condemnation.
He gives a practical application of His teaching. Don't just bring your sacrifice to the temple, to the altar, but first be reconciled to your brother in the true application of the Commandment, and then offer your sacrifice.

This is a teaching given to those under Law.

One of the least of these commandments. Someone who truly abides by this teaching is therefore bound to keep and teach the least of these commandments, offering sacrifices, abstaining from foods, all of it.

I don't see this as teaching the new covenant. But I often see it presented as a "new" law for the new covenant Christian, and I don't think that is correct.

Much love!

I believe the 'nail in the coffin' on The Mount was in showing them..and mankind..that NO MAN can keep the law. He brought the old laws higher by ten times...they/we couldn't keep the Old, and even more so we could not keep the laws on the Mount!!

I believe that the new Covenant came in at the Cross...When God took and removed the enmity between Himself and man once and for all.
 
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Helen

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The cup and the bread, the Lord's supper, this is a sign? I can't seem to find anything in the Bible saying that.

Circumcision, and, you've mentioned the Sabbath, yes, that's good to look at too.

There is no need of 'a sign'. The circumcision of the OT does not have a equal sign in the new. ( Only the circumcision of the heart)

Paul tells us in Col 3
"Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. "
The cross in our heart is enough. Jesus Himself is always enough.

Sometimes we stain at a gnat and swallow a camel!
 
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CharismaticLady

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There is no need of 'a sign'. The circumcision of the OT does not have a equal sign in the new. ( Only the circumcision of the heart)

Paul tells us in Col 3
"Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. "
The cross in our heart is enough. Jesus Himself is always enough.

Sometimes we stain at a gnat and swallow a camel!

The New Covenant is a covenant. Are you saying it isn't, so there is no need of a sign? All covenants have a sign of the covenant. When the covenant ends, so does the sign of that covenant. Thus, the 7th day Sabbath is no longer in effect, and neither is circumcision of the flesh. Why? Because Jesus ended both of those covenants as their fulfillment when He started the New Covenant. So what is the sign of the New Covenant? That is what Mark and I were discussing. Circumcision of the flesh is no longer valid. Jesus fulfilled it and made it now of the heart. Same with the Sabbath. The rest of the Sabbath is now in Him.

Because the blood of Jesus sanctified us and is called the "blood of the covenant," it corresponds with the "cup of the new covenant." I believe it is obvious, but Mark doesn't. If you think it is swatting at gnats? Fine. Don't join the discussion. But don't judge us and put us down just because he and I think it is interesting.
 
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Helen

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The New Covenant is a covenant. Are you saying it isn't, so there is no need of a sign? All covenants have a sign of the covenant. When the covenant ends, so does the sign of that covenant. Thus, the 7th day Sabbath is no longer in effect, and neither is circumcision of the flesh. Why? Because Jesus ended both of those covenants as their fulfillment when He started the New Covenant. So what is the sign of the New Covenant? That is what Mark and I were discussing. Circumcision of the flesh is no longer valid. Jesus fulfilled it and made it now of the heart. Same with the Sabbath. The rest of the Sabbath is now in Him.

Because the blood of Jesus sanctified us and is called the "blood of the covenant," it corresponds with the "cup of the new covenant." I believe it is obvious, but Mark doesn't. If you think it is swatting at gnats? Fine. Don't join the discussion. But don't judge us and put us down just because he and I think it is interesting.

And @marks

Jesus Himself tells us of the one and only sign!

When Jesus was asked about 'a sign' he reference Jonah, three days and three nights ..and pointing to Himself...HE is the sign ....
People can look , but He is the only NT sign given.

He Himself IS our Covenant.

Luke 11.30

"For as Jonas was a sign to the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation. "

Heb 6
"For when God made promise to Abraham, because He could swear by no greater, He swore by Himself,.."
........Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
18 That by * two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:..which hope we have as an anchor of our soul. "

* God cut covenant with Himself ( Jesus Christ in our place) thus He made covenant with us.
 
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CharismaticLady

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And @marks

Jesus Himself tells us of the one and only sign!

When Jesus was asked about 'a sign' he reference Jonah, three days and three nights ..and pointing to Himself...HE is the sign ....
People can look , but He is the only NT sign given.

He Himself IS our Covenant.

Luke 11.30

"For as Jonas was a sign to the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation. "

Heb 6
"For when God made promise to Abraham, because He could swear by no greater, He swore by Himself,.."
........Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
18 That by * two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:..which hope we have as an anchor of our soul. "

* God cut covenant with Himself ( Jesus Christ in our place) thus He made covenant with us.

Jesus was talking to the Pharisees, and it was about the Old Covenant. His death put an end to the Old Covanant.
 

marks

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It is something outward. Like a sacrament.
And @marks

Jesus Himself tells us of the one and only sign!

When Jesus was asked about 'a sign' he reference Jonah, three days and three nights ..and pointing to Himself...HE is the sign ....
People can look , but He is the only NT sign given.

He Himself IS our Covenant.

Luke 11.30

"For as Jonas was a sign to the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation. "

Heb 6
"For when God made promise to Abraham, because He could swear by no greater, He swore by Himself,.."
........Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
18 That by * two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:..which hope we have as an anchor of our soul. "

* God cut covenant with Himself ( Jesus Christ in our place) thus He made covenant with us.
I've got chills and goosebumps!!!

The sign of our covenant . . . the Risen Lord Jesus Christ!

Much love!
 
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marks

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There is no need of 'a sign'. The circumcision of the OT does not have a equal sign in the new. ( Only the circumcision of the heart)

Paul tells us in Col 3
"Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. "
The cross in our heart is enough. Jesus Himself is always enough.

Sometimes we stain at a gnat and swallow a camel!
The only thing that I can really think of being specified in the Bible is being sealed by the Holy Spirit, and that is a sign to ourselves. The earnest of our inheritance. But so far that's the closest I can come up with as far as something being talked about that way.

In the Revelation, there will be the seal on the foreheads of of the 144,000, but that's not the gentile church of course.

Much love!
 

marks

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Circumcision of the flesh is no longer valid. Jesus fulfilled it and made it now of the heart.
So then how is it that circumcision of the heart would not be the sign you are looking for?

God made a "mini-covenant" with Moses, that He would be with Moses to set His people free, and . . .

Exodus 3
11 And Moses said unto God, Who am I, that I should go unto Pharaoh, and that I should bring forth the children of Israel out of Egypt?
12 And he said, Certainly I will be with thee; and this shall be a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain.

The sign that God had sent Moses? That when it was all over, and God had delivered Israel, they would return to that mountain. Some sign! After it's all over! But there it is.

Much love!
 

CharismaticLady

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I've got chills and goosebumps!!!

The sign of our covenant . . . the Risen Lord Jesus Christ!

Much love!

Just as the Old Covenant was with God, but the sign was the Sabbath, so our New Covenant is with God - Jesus Christ. But the sign has something to do with God, but is not God/Jesus, Himself. But you two believe what you like. But if more people knew covenant theology, we would not have whole denominations worshiping a day of the week.
 

CharismaticLady

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Whoa!

Believe what you like? Well OK, and to you too!

Who is it who is worshipping a day of the week?

It sounds like you've got it all worked out, I'm just having some trouble pinning it down in Scripture.

I'm considering tokens and signs and seals, and whatever of the like I can think of. The closes thing I can think of is what Helen mentioned, "the only sign given you", as you said, He spoke to the Pharisees, even so, this seems to me to be the only place such a statement is made.

There is the phrase, "blood of the new covenant", which corresponds to the blood with which Moses sprinkled both the Book and the people, explained in Hebrews 9.

It's interesting that you feel a lack of understanding of covenant theology leads one to miss this. Covenant Theology includes the view that all covenants have a sign, is that right? And this sign is something viewable by others, is that the point?

Much love!

Seventh-day Adventists.
 

Helen

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Jesus was talking to the Pharisees, and it was about the Old Covenant. His death put an end to the Old Covanant.

And the sign of the N.C is His death and resurrection.

I also believe that Jesus mentioned- " Those who "seek signs".

Why does anyone "need" a greater sign that Jesus Christ Himself. hmm[1].gif

Christ Himself is the sum of all spiritual things.
 
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