Falling from grace

[dragonfly]

Hi dragonfly,

There was no straw man as you presumed.
The 10 commandments are commonly referred to as the law.

I had asked earlier what commandments you were referring to in answering for Episkopis, but got no answer.
It is difficult to discuss things if you don't clarify your points with scripture.

Hi haz,

I think John separates 'His commandments' from 'the law'. That's why when you brought in the 10 commandments for the law - which is reasonable to do - I felt as if you were creating a straw man, because in keeping 'His commandments' we will be fulfilling 'the law'. The question John implies is not 'do you keep the law', but, 'do you keep His commandments'?

 

[Webers_Home]

.
The only people I take seriously on Christian forums these days are those
who can sincerely testify-- in all honesty and a clear conscience --that they
compose their posts in the power of the Spirit. The rest I automatically
relegate to the loony bin of online bee-essers.

Cliff
/

 

[Episkopos]

Episkopos in many ways I like your theology it reminds me of the older saints in my church who are strict Holiness people. I agree living holy and progressing in sanctification are works of grace and essential to salvation. Not sinless perfection and legalistic bondage but freedom of holiness and the grace of sanctification.

Amen! :)

 

[Kidron]

This thread has a lot of responses and ive not read them all, however, in case no one has actually answered this Question about "falling from Grace", then i'll answer it.

To fall from Grace, is to stop counting completely by FAITH ALONE on the Atonement of Christ = 100% to save you and to keep you saved.

To fall from Grace, means that you once understood that you are saved by Christ alone and kept saved by Christ alone, but later, you developed the theological mess that you had to start "living it", or "keeping the law", or "having works and faith", to be saved and to stay saved.

So, what happened is, this believer left simple faith in the Cross, in the blood atoneent of Christ,...., and has substituted it in their mind and theology with a faith + something to be saved.
Faith + works.
Faith + lifestyle
Faith + whatever

Now, let me give you the argument that a person who has fallen from Grace would give you, so that you can judge yourself to find out if you are the very person that Paul was writing to when he wrote the letter to the Galatians...


Well, i know that Christ saved me, BUT, i have to live it, i have to live a holy life to be saved as my LIFE and my WORKS "........etc.
see it?

Here it is again..

"Are you telling me that you can be backslid and still go to heaven''?

and again,

"But in James, he said you prove your faith by your works, so this means i have to DO STUFF to be saved and i'm not really saved just by FAITH ALONE"

see it?


Other attempts would be to try to prove that water baptism saves you, or that no one can know they are saved for certain.

The bottom line is that someone who has fallen from Grace is trying to add to the Cross their works or some type of "lifestyle" as a second part of
salvation.
Christ + what they do.
They have concluded that believing in Christ alone without anything else is not quite enough to be truly saved and kept truly saved.
So this person, who has fallen from Grace has left simple faith and has substituted it with some type of works based theology to "be saved" and to "stay saved".

A "fallen from Grace" believer, is unable to accept that all sins including future ones are already forgiven, that the law is gone, and that their lifestyle has nothing to do with being saved or staying saved, and they cannot accept that salvation is eternal and can never be lost.
They have substituted works for faith, and they dont even realize that this has happened until you point out to them that they are trying to save themselves by their deeds and lifestyle and law keeping, instead of trusting in Christ alone.
And when you show them, the first thing they will do is run to Matthew or James to try to prove that Paul didnt know what he was talking about in Romans and Galatians.
A "fallen from Grace'" believer lives and dies in James and Matthew and Hebrews.
Coz in those letters, they can find >what to them< is proof that you are not just saved by faith, and that you can lose your salvation.
Romans, chapter's 3-5 are unknown to them.
It doesn't exist inside their theological circle.
Romans 4:28, and 5:1 and Galatians 2:16 & 21 are unknown parts of their bible.
2nd Corinthians 3:11,13 is never read.
Romans 7:6???.......They've never heard of such a thing.

The other symptom of a "fallen from Grace" believer is that they will always use PETER to try to interpret the scriptures regarding being saved, instead of using PAUL as they should.
As its Paul, and not Peter who was giving the deep revelation of the Grace of God..... >without works<.
The understanding of FAITH and GRACE, came from Paul., as it was Paul who was given this revelation personally by Jesus The Christ.
It is PAUL who is the apostle to the Gentiles.
It is Paul who told us that faith alone without the deeds of the law is GRACE, is Pardon, is a FREE GIFT.....Romans 5:16.17
Peter does not deal with this deeply, as its Paul who God ordained to give to the body of Christ the full understanding of Grace of Pardon of Eternal security and of imputed righteousness."...Romans 4:7

So, a "fallen from Grace" believer will always uses the letters of James and Hebrews and Matthew and Peter to try to dismiss Paul.

Notice this.





K

 

[lawrance]

The unity is only in the Spirit. We show our disunity when we seek to understand the bible on our own...or through a method we have learned from men. The truth lies deeper than most are willing to venture. Consequently it is too easy to settle for a gospel that does not contain that revolutionary power that changed the world in the first century.

Since that time the gospel has been watered down to the point that there is no more offence to the cross of Christ. We are truly living in the time of the Laodiceans whereby we have settled for an unreality and a popular belief in a "magic" gospel that ensures the rich for a good time after a life lived to the fullest according to the flesh.

Right you are dear Episkopos.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Kidron,

I've just read your whole post, and whether you realise it or not, you've implied that 'fallen from grace' actually means, 'lost your salvation', whilte at the same time the rest of your post implyies that you believe in eternal security, once all the 'works' in 'faith+whatever' have been removed from the equation. You're right that adding works to faith for salvation, is error, but the writer to the Hebrews implies that it's a constant battle to enter into rest, and therefore, falling from grace is not the same as losing your salvation. Rather, it can be repented, and fellowship through faith alone, can be restored.

Other attempts would be to try to prove that water baptism saves you

An entire doctrine has been made from the conversation between Jesus and the thief on the cross, which states that you don't need to be baptised to be saved, despite that the thief might be the exception, or, that 'now you are clean through the word that I have spoken unto you' (John 15:3) may apply, or, that there is large agreement between the teaching of Jesus, Peter and and Paul, that believers should be baptised in water (at least, in) the name of Jesus.

[Peter speaking] Acts 2:37 Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

[Luke speaking] Acts 9:17And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, [even] Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. (Acts 22:16)

[Paul speaking] Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5 When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they ...'

There are many more verses which justify thinking that a person's claim to faith in Jesus Christ's finished work may be questioned, if that 'faith' doesn't convince them of their liberty to be baptised in water. I have seen this in reverse - that a person who refused to make a public declaration of their 'faith' in Christ - by being baptised - demonstrated nothing in their lifestyle which could be described as 'fruit unto God'. (Matthew 7:20)

There is nothing in scripture which can be used to prove that that thief had not been baptised by John, or by Jesus' disciples; or that his repentant attitude on the cross was the very first time he'd felt repentant. The whole sacrificial system of the Old Covenant which had been in operation until the Temple vail was torn from top to bottom, implied that people knew what sin was, and, that they knew they could not stop themselves from doing it.

A "fallen from Grace" believer, is unable to accept that all sins including future ones are already forgiven

This is not, strictly, what Paul stated:
(KJV) Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

3:25 3739 ον whom 4388-3588-2316 προέθετο ο θεός God set forth 2435 ιλαστήριον as an atonement 1223 διά through 3588 της the 4102 πίστεως belief, 1722 εν in 3588 τω the one 1473 αυτού of his 129 αίματι blood, 1519 εις for 1732 ένδειξιν a demonstration 3588 της 1343-1473 δικαιοσύνης αυτού of his righteousness 1223 διά through 3588 την the 3929 πάρεσιν letting pass 3588 των of the 4266 προγεγονότων preceding 265 αμαρτημάτων sins,

http://studybible.in...ear/Romans 3:25

New Testament Greek Definition:
4266 proginomai {prog-in'-om-ahee}
from 4253 and 1096;; v
AV - be past 1; 1
1) to arise or come before, happen before
1a) of sins committed previously

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins ...' 1 John 1:7

a "fallen from Grace" believer will always uses the letters of James and Hebrews and Matthew and Peter to try to dismiss Paul.

It's true that Dispensationalists will argue that Peter's and Paul's doctrine were at variance with each other, because of the different people groups on whom the Lord had them expend most of their ministries, but my study of the New Testament's recordings of their teaching and reasoning, proves precisely the opposite: they were fully in agreement with each other.

Any person who thinks there is disagreement between New Testament writers, in doctrine, has not understood the gospel, nor what all the writers are teaching. Perhaps this is your point?

 

[Kidron]

Hi Kidron,

I've just read your whole post, and whether you realise it or not, you've implied that 'fallen from grace' actually means, 'lost your salvation'


Nope....never implied that or said that...
Are you sure you read my post???
As a matter of factual point, i said just the opposite.
I said you CANT lose your salvation, BUT that people who misunderstand Galatians, which speaks about "falling from Grace",, WILL SAY you can lose it.


An entire doctrine has been made from the conversation between Jesus and the thief on the cross, which states that you don't need to be baptised to be saved, despite that the thief might be the exception, or, that 'now you are clean through the word that I have spoken unto you' (John 15:3) may apply, or, that there is large agreement between the teaching of Jesus, Peter and and Paul, that believers should be baptised in water (at least, in) the name of Jesus.


All believers should be baptised in water after they are born again by the Spirit through Faith.
Certainly.
And also, a better way to see it is to realize that all who were in the Upper Room on the day of Pentecost and were "filled" , yet didnt get water baptised to get filled..
Did you notice this?
There was no water baptism pool in the upper room or in the building.
Ive been in it, as i live near it..........and i can tell you that the upper room experience that fell upon those that day in Acts, had not a drop of water to be found.
The perfect way to see it is to realize that its the blood of Christ ALONE and not the city tap water that "washed away your sins", once and for all..


1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


Our sins are already washed away and purged........so, even this verse is taken out of context constantly by Christians who do not understand that the Law is abolished by the body of Christ and our Sins are gone forever.
We do not confess what God has already forgiven, now do we??
So, once again, there is always this misunderstanding among believers regarding salvation and what it did for you, and discipleship which is what WE DO later.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins ...' 1 John 1:7

Much better theology.....as John is saying that the righteousness of Christ is our ADVOCATE and not our "confession".
So, this agrees with Paul =100%


Anyone who will read the accounts of those who were converted from Acts 2 and beyond, will discover that water always FOLLOWED Salvation by Faith, it never came before, nor during.
Water followes BELIEF, it follows FAITH.
And( if) the dying thief was baptised according to the Jewish water ritual, then he was most certainly not saved yet, as baptism in water cant save anything.
However, after he was positioned next to Christ on the spikes , things changed when he >believed<., exactly the same as they changed when we believed.

It's true that Dispensationalists will argue that Peter's and Paul's doctrine were at variance with each other, because of the different people groups on whom the Lord had them expend most of their ministries, but my study of the New Testament's recordings of their teaching and reasoning, proves precisely the opposite: they were fully in agreement with each other.


Im not a Dispensationist, are you? And i can show you in your bible where Paul confronted Peter who was not behaving correctly "according to the gospel", in (Galatians 2:14).....Did you miss that one, or maybe you have a bible version that omits the verse??
So, when we think of the gospel of the grace of God, we understand that Paul is the one who God has used to nail down this doctrine of "justification by faith".

And one more thing you might have missed, Dragonfly.....In (2nd Peter 3:16), ..Peter refers to Paul's letters in the same context and spiritual position as the Torah.
So, even Peter understood that Paul was unique among all others, so that even his letters were compared by Peter, to the "scriptures".
You wont find Peter saying this about any of the other Apostle's letters.


be blessed,


K

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Kidron,

Possibly I misunderstood the impact/import of what you said:

This thread has a lot of responses and ive not read them all, however, in case no one has actually answered this Question about "falling from Grace", then i'll answer it.

To fall from Grace, is to stop counting completely by FAITH ALONE on the Atonement of Christ = 100% to save you and to keep you saved.

To fall from Grace, means that you once understood that you are saved by Christ alone and kept saved by Christ alone, but later, you developed the theological mess that you had to start "living it", or "keeping the law", or "having works and faith", to be saved and to stay saved.

So, what happened is, this believer left simple faith in the Cross, in the blood atoneent of Christ,...., and has substituted it in their mind and theology with a faith + something to be saved.
Faith + works.
Faith + lifestyle
Faith + whatever

Nope....never implied that or said that...
Are you sure you read my post???
As a matter of factual point, i said just the opposite.
I said you CANT lose your salvation, BUT that people who misunderstand Galatians, which speaks about "falling from Grace",, WILL SAY you can lose it.

I was looking at the unbelief you were annotating in that the person had stopped believing only in Christ's work.

So, you're saying that a person who falls from grace has not lost their salvation. Okay. I know you said it later, too.

I don't agree that salvation cannot be lost. We don't need to argue this out. I'm just letting you know my position.

All believers should be baptised in water after they are born again by the Spirit through Faith.
Certainly.
And also, a better way to see it is to realize that all who were in the Upper Room on the day of Pentecost and were "filled" , yet didnt get water baptised to get filled..
Did you notice this?
There was no water baptism pool in the upper room or in the building.
Ive been in it, as i live near it..........and i can tell you that the upper room experience that fell upon those that day in Acts, had not a drop of water to be found.
The perfect way to see it is to realize that its the blood of Christ ALONE and not the city tap water that "washed away your sins", once and for all..

The people in the upper room had already been baptised in water.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Our sins are already washed away and purged........so, even this verse is taken out of context constantly by Christians who do not understand that the Law is abolished by the body of Christ and our Sins are gone forever.
We do not confess what God has already forgiven, now do we??
So, once again, there is always this misunderstanding among believers regarding salvation and what it did for you, and discipleship which is what WE DO later.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins ...' 1 John 1:7

Much better theology.....as John is saying that the righteousness of Christ is our ADVOCATE and not our "confession".
So, this agrees with Paul =100%

Please find more than one scripture verse which specifically states that: the Law is abolished by the body of Christ ?


You don't seem to have understood the reason for my quoting the Greek for Romans 3:25

]This is not, strictly, what Paul stated:
(KJV) Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

3:25 3739 ον whom 4388-3588-2316 προέθετο ο θεός God set forth 2435 ιλαστήριον as an atonement 1223 διά through 3588 της the 4102 πίστεως belief, 1722 εν in 3588 τω the one 1473 αυτού of his 129 αίματι blood, 1519 εις for 1732 ένδειξιν a demonstration 3588 της 1343-1473 δικαιοσύνης αυτού of his righteousness 1223 διά through 3588 την the 3929 πάρεσιν letting pass 3588 των of the 4266 προγεγονότων preceding 265 αμαρτημάτων sins,

Again, please clarify this statement

all sins including future ones are already forgiven

in the light of Romans 3:25? Thank you.

Anyone who will read the accounts of those who were converted from Acts 2 and beyond, will discover that water always FOLLOWED Salvation by Faith, it never came before, nor during.
Water followes BELIEF, it follows FAITH.

You are correct, but the disciples had believed and been baptised up to the fulness of the revelation - repentance - some of them in John's baptism, and maybe some of the others, in Jesus' baptism. Now they were full of the Holy Spirit; which was possible only because they had repentant hearts - they had wholeheartedly turned away from sin.

Im not a Dispensationist, are you? And i can show you in your bible where Paul confronted Peter who was not behaving correctly "according to the gospel", in (Galatians 2:14).....Did you miss that one, or maybe you have a bible version that omits the verse??
So, when we think of the gospel of the grace of God, we understand that Paul is the one who God has used to nail down this doctrine of "justification by faith".

Yes Paul confronted Peter, and Peter repented, which is all that was required. You won't find any disagreements between Peter and Paul's doctrine. We may be familiar with the way Paul describes justification by faith, but Peter also expresses it in almost poetic terms:

1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. 3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: 7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: 8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see [him] not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9 Receiving the end of your faith, [even] the salvation of [your] souls.

And one more thing you might have missed, Dragonfly.....In (2nd Peter 3:16), ..Peter refers to Paul's letters in the same context and spiritual position as the Torah.

No, I didn't 'miss' that. And it only goes further to show how completely Peter and Paul were in agreement. :)

 

[Kidron]

Remarkable is the fact that the OP of this thread, according to his admitted ultra legalistic theology, is actually the very person who has committed the deed referred to by his thread's title.
Now THAT is unique., isnt it?



K

 

[Episkopos]

This thread has a lot of responses and ive not read them all, however, in case no one has actually answered this Question about "falling from Grace", then i'll answer it.

To fall from Grace, is to stop counting completely by FAITH ALONE on the Atonement of Christ = 100% to save you and to keep you saved.

To fall from Grace, means that you once understood that you are saved by Christ alone and kept saved by Christ alone, but later, you developed the theological mess that you had to start "living it", or "keeping the law", or "having works and faith", to be saved and to stay saved.

So, what happened is, this believer left simple faith in the Cross, in the blood atoneent of Christ,...., and has substituted it in their mind and theology with a faith + something to be saved.
Faith + works.
Faith + lifestyle
Faith + whatever

Now, let me give you the argument that a person who has fallen from Grace would give you, so that you can judge yourself to find out if you are the very person that Paul was writing to when he wrote the letter to the Galatians...


Well, i know that Christ saved me, BUT, i have to live it, i have to live a holy life to be saved as my LIFE and my WORKS "........etc.
see it?

Here it is again..

"Are you telling me that you can be backslid and still go to heaven''?

and again,

"But in James, he said you prove your faith by your works, so this means i have to DO STUFF to be saved and i'm not really saved just by FAITH ALONE"

see it?


Other attempts would be to try to prove that water baptism saves you, or that no one can know they are saved for certain.

The bottom line is that someone who has fallen from Grace is trying to add to the Cross their works or some type of "lifestyle" as a second part of
salvation.
Christ + what they do.
They have concluded that believing in Christ alone without anything else is not quite enough to be truly saved and kept truly saved.
So this person, who has fallen from Grace has left simple faith and has substituted it with some type of works based theology to "be saved" and to "stay saved".

A "fallen from Grace" believer, is unable to accept that all sins including future ones are already forgiven, that the law is gone, and that their lifestyle has nothing to do with being saved or staying saved, and they cannot accept that salvation is eternal and can never be lost.
They have substituted works for faith, and they dont even realize that this has happened until you point out to them that they are trying to save themselves by their deeds and lifestyle and law keeping, instead of trusting in Christ alone.
And when you show them, the first thing they will do is run to Matthew or James to try to prove that Paul didnt know what he was talking about in Romans and Galatians.
A "fallen from Grace'" believer lives and dies in James and Matthew and Hebrews.
Coz in those letters, they can find >what to them< is proof that you are not just saved by faith, and that you can lose your salvation.
Romans, chapter's 3-5 are unknown to them.
It doesn't exist inside their theological circle.
Romans 4:28, and 5:1 and Galatians 2:16 & 21 are unknown parts of their bible.
2nd Corinthians 3:11,13 is never read.
Romans 7:6???.......They've never heard of such a thing.

The other symptom of a "fallen from Grace" believer is that they will always use PETER to try to interpret the scriptures regarding being saved, instead of using PAUL as they should.
As its Paul, and not Peter who was giving the deep revelation of the Grace of God..... >without works<.
The understanding of FAITH and GRACE, came from Paul., as it was Paul who was given this revelation personally by Jesus The Christ.
It is PAUL who is the apostle to the Gentiles.
It is Paul who told us that faith alone without the deeds of the law is GRACE, is Pardon, is a FREE GIFT.....Romans 5:16.17
Peter does not deal with this deeply, as its Paul who God ordained to give to the body of Christ the full understanding of Grace of Pardon of Eternal security and of imputed righteousness."...Romans 4:7

So, a "fallen from Grace" believer will always uses the letters of James and Hebrews and Matthew and Peter to try to dismiss Paul.

Notice this.





K

You are only reading from the bible what you think benefiits you. When you do this you will deny anything you find " hard" and seek yo justify yourself in your present sinful condition. The bible is clear that a true follower of Christ is dead to sin. Ignore this at your own peril.

Remarkable is the fact that the OP of this thread, according to his admitted ultra legalistic theology, is actually the very person who has committed the deed referred to by his thread's title.
Now THAT is unique., isnt it?



K

Again, the trand is to kustify oneself (as the Pharisees did.) The purpose of this thread is not to justify myself at all....but rather get at the truth! Whethre this shows me up or not is not important. Rather than seeing this as wrong real Christians would see this as right....since only the self righteous make the bible line up with their own lives. The real irony here is that I am being vondemned for NOT seeking to justify myself by the vivle as so many others do. The truth has no favourites. We come closer to Christ by admitting where we fail in the truth...not sek to justify ourselves through a twisted doctrine we have come up with.

 

[dragonfly]

We have both died with Christ, and have been raised with Christ.

In fact we do have immunity, demonstrated in this passage. "When Christ our life is revealed, then also you will be revealed with Him in glory."

If you have died in Christ, you will be revealed with Him in glory. No Fail.

Hi mark s,

There are a great many 'if's in the New Testament. I agree with the spiritual truth of what you've written, but it depends on the believer remaining in fellowship with God - never walking in the flesh, never falling to temptation, never choosing to sin.

I would rather say that God sees the intention of a believer's heart, for as long as they are cleaving to Him in faith and being honest about the things they know they don't do in the way Jesus would; nevertheless, seeking to be obedient and pleasing to the Father to the extent of the revelation they've been given. While it is all to easy to look at one's inabilities, it is not true that we are not in need of continuing correction by the Father. You may choose to call this something other than 'fail', but that might be a semantic difference; it might even be a self-deception leading to a loss of fellowship with God, eventually. He is not as interested in the shine on our doctrine, as He is in the glory shining from those who have fixed their gaze on Jesus.

 

[mark s]

Hi dragonfly,

Then your salvation is based on works - your ability to keep yourself from sinning. And in the eternal kingdom, you will have the pleasure of the boast, "I did it! I kept myself from sin!"

but it depends on the believer remaining in fellowship with God - never walking in the flesh, never falling to temptation, never choosing to sin.

Intention is not what saves us. Perfomance is not what saves us, not that we even can perform sufficiently. A new creation - this is salvation - life given in Jesus. He who has the Son has life. He who does not have the Son does not have life.

Love in Christ,
Mark

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Mark,

I know it is not 'intention' which saves us. I didn't imply that it is. It's faith in the finished work of Christ, which brings us into an on-going relationship with our Father in heaven. That said, our lives are supposed to demonstrate a changed relationship with sin, and the kind of obedience to the will of the Father which accepts one's disposablity from this life. The exercise of faith is essential.

KJV Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

My understanding is, the 'believe' is present continuous.

Young's Literal: Hebrews 10:39 and we are not of those drawing back to destruction, but of those believing to a preserving of soul.

LITV (Green) Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of those withdrawing to destruction, but of faith, to the preservation of the soul.


Faith has to lead to action, both inward and outward. The Day of Atonement covered sins of omission, and attitude. They've got to change, and we have got to be different. Yes, it starts in the heart, but it's got to affect the mind and the behaviour, visibly. Or we have failed. Temporarily. :)

 

[mark s]

Hi dragonfly,

Actually, "belief" in this verse is a genetive case noun. LITV has the correct translation.

True belief in Jesus results in God re-creating us, which changes us, resulting our our good works.

Love in Christ,
Mark

 

[Episkopos]

Hi dragonfly,

Actually, "belief" in this verse is a genetive case noun. LITV has the correct translation.

True belief in Jesus results in God re-creating us, which changes us, resulting our our good works.

Love in Christ,
Mark

Yes! true faith is the key that opens the power of God to us to obey God's commandments. God does not just speak vanity when He says what we must do. There is amazing lack of fear of the judgments of God on this forum.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Mark,

Thanks for the clarification. The use of 'faith' seems to have become rather a static term, which may be why Young chose 'believing' - to convey the sense of now and moving forwards. I was very struck the first time I noticed Peter's comment, 'by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of', 2 Peter 2:2. It was then that I began to see for myself, that 'I am the Way', means we have to keep walking with Jesus to get to our destination.

There is amazing lack of fear of the judgments of God on this forum.

As I'm fairly new here, I hesitated to make this observation, although it had crossed my mind. At the same time, if one is trying to stay focused on an unrelated point, one might not mention one's 'fear' 'of the judgments of God', even though it be never far from mind.

1 Peter 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

 

[mark s]

Yes! true faith is the key that opens the power of God to us to obey God's commandments. God does not just speak vanity when He says what we must do. There is amazing lack of fear of the judgments of God on this forum.

1 John 4:17-18 ESV
(17) By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world.
(18) There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.

God did not save to try to keep a Law that we cannot keep, that cannot make us righteous, and cannot give us life.

Romans 7:4-6 ESV
(4) Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.
(5) For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.
(6) But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit.

Hi Mark,

Thanks for the clarification. The use of 'faith' seems to have become rather a static term, which may be why Young chose 'believing' - to convey the sense of now and moving forwards. I was very struck the first time I noticed Peter's comment, 'by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of', 2 Peter 2:2. It was then that I began to see for myself, that 'I am the Way', means we have to keep walking with Jesus to get to our destination.



As I'm fairly new here, I hesitated to make this observation, although it had crossed my mind. At the same time, if one is trying to stay focused on an unrelated point, one might not mention one's 'fear' 'of the judgments of God', even though it be never far from mind.

1 Peter 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Hi dragonfly,

"Faith", or "belief", as used in this passage, is what you might call static, being a noun and not a verb. We should not act as though a different syntax were being used. There are other places where "faith" is more like what you are describing, but we need to look at those for what they are saying.

But let me ask you this.

What does it mean to be "immersed into Christ"?

Romans 6:3-4 ESV
(3) Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
(4) We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

This is of course the meaning of baptizo - baptize - to immerse. We've been immersed into Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:17 ESV
(17) Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

What is the significance of being "in Christ"?

In love,

Mark

 

[dragonfly]

What is the significance of being "in Christ"?

Hi Mark,

There are several books in the New Testament which cover the answer to your question in different ways ;) ... care to narrow your question down a bit?

 

[Episkopos]

1 John 4:17-18 ESV
(17) By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world.
(18) There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.

God did not save to try to keep a Law that we cannot keep, that cannot make us righteous, and cannot give us life.

Romans 7:4-6 ESV
(4) Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.
(5) For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.
(6) But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit.



Hi dragonfly,

"Faith", or "belief", as used in this passage, is what you might call static, being a noun and not a verb. We should not act as though a different syntax were being used. There are other places where "faith" is more like what you are describing, but we need to look at those for what they are saying.

But let me ask you this.

What does it mean to be "immersed into Christ"?

Romans 6:3-4 ESV
(3) Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
(4) We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

This is of course the meaning of baptizo - baptize - to immerse. We've been immersed into Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:17 ESV
(17) Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

What is the significance of being "in Christ"?

In love,

Mark

The law reveals who are abiding in Christ or not. If you have truly put on Christ then you are walking in a higher plain of existence called "walking in the Spirit". The reaon we "fall" from grace is because when we walk in the grace of God we are walking in a higher union with God...in holiness...HIS holiness. Such a great salvation!!! :)

 

[mark s]

Hi Mark,

There are several books in the New Testament which cover the answer to your question in different ways ;) ... care to narrow your question down a bit?

I am interested in what the primary significance is to you. But when I have some more time, I'll point in more of a particular direction.

The law reveals who are abiding in Christ or not. If you have truly put on Christ then you are walking in a higher plain of existence called "walking in the Spirit". The reaon we "fall" from grace is because when we walk in the grace of God we are walking in a higher union with God...in holiness...HIS holiness. Such a great salvation!!! :)

So . . . if you are uncircumcised . . . you are not abiding in Christ?