Gotta problem. I'm debating a Mormon online and he brought up some things I can't answer (the first time that's ever happened). --Did God break his promise to Abraham about the land of Canaan?--What about the events with Jonah and Nineveh? False prophesies?--And when Jesus said (Matthew 24:36)that the end would come in "this" generation, he couldn't have meant that generation alive at that time, could he? I need some help because I'm stuck in a theological quandry!
False Prophesies
- Thread starter Dad of 3
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Why in the World would you debate with a Mormon??? Even if you proved everything He said to be wrong, He would not believe you. People have to have an ear to hear, and we should not debate what we believe. NEVER!!!Your first two questions were not clear. God never broke any promise to anyone though. All has come to pass or is coming to pass.give specific scriptures where you think the contradictions may occur.Your last one about "This generation" Read the rest of what Jesus said. It is when those things start to occur that When those things start to happen THIS GENERATION will be the ones to experience it.Jesus was giving us signs for what Generation the end would come. It would be that generation that would see the end.Example: The Year 1875The microwave is coming. It will cook food faster and be able to heat things up quickly. So, when you see one hit wonder bands, and the Chicago Bears win the Super Bowl. When you see Atari die, and Commodore and Apple fight for the computer market. This generation will not pass away before seeing the coming of the microwave in every home.Welcome to this generation.Jesus Is Lord.
[quote name='Dad of 3;73514]Gotta problem. I'm debating a Mormon online and he brought up some things I can't answer (the first time that's ever happened). --Did God break his promise to Abraham about the land of Canaan?--What about the events with Jonah and Nineveh? False prophesies?--And when Jesus said (Matthew 24:36)that the end would come in "this" generation' date=' he couldn't have meant that generation alive at that time, could he? I need some help because I'm stuck in a theological quandry![/QUOTE'] God did not break His promise to Abraham. What happened when Israel was led by Moses out of Egypt? Did not each tribe of Israel inherit portions of the land Canaan? The book of Jonah is quite interesting...I don't think there are false prohesies...I don't have scripture to back it up...and no comment about Mathew... I guess I just wanted to reply about God's promise to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob/Israel
Brother Mike;73522]Why in the World would you debate with a Mormon??? Even if you proved everything He said to be wrong said:
[quote name='chrissy;73531]God did not break His promise to Abraham. What happened when Israel was led by Moses out of Egypt? Did not each tribe of Israel inherit portions of the land Canaan? The book of Jonah is quite interesting...I don't think there are false prohesies...I don't have scripture to back it up...and no comment about Mathew... I guess I just wanted to reply about God's promise to Abraham' date=' Isaac and Jacob/Israel[/QUOTE'] Is it a trick question? In that case, I dunno, what happened when Israel was lead out of Egypt by Moses? I found a passage in which Abraham states that he was hanging out in the land of Canaan, the land of his enemies, so there's enough to refute that point, it seems.
[quote name='Dad of 3;73533]Is it a trick question? In that case' date=' I dunno, what happened when Israel was lead out of Egypt by Moses? I found a passage in which Abraham states that he was hanging out in the land of Canaan, the land of his enemies, so there's enough to refute that point, it seems.[/QUOTE'] Oh no sorry, I was stating a fact in the context of a question. Israel did inherit the land of Canaan. Moses led them out of Egypt, but Moses died before crossing Jordan, so I believe Joshua brought them into the land. But the covenant was to Abraham's seed as well. Even to Isaac and Jacob was this covenant made with God. As you may already know Jacob's name was then changed to Israel.(twice..anyhow..that's another topic) So yes the covenant was kept. :)
You see it again with David; God can and often does make a promise with one that will ultimately be fulfilled with his seed. Remember that God's promises are conditional, and are only fulfilled with the other party holds to his or her end.
Aside from that, Abraham clearly lived in Canaan as the Bible documents. I'm not quite sure where this promise could have ever been broken? (Seems almost nonsensical to me to even suggest it was...)
Elaborate how this one says they're false. I have an inkling from the first question that it's a question in ignorance more than anything.
Jesus is speaking to the generation of the fig tree. Remember that the same inspiration for the words of the Bible is the exact same inspiration for the words of Christ. When one doesn't understand a verse, context is always the best place to go.I've included the first verse to show the shift in thought.
Nomad
Post Tenebras Lux
Jos 21:43 Thus the LORD gave to Israel all the land that he swore to give to their fathers. And they took possession of it, and they settled there. Jos 21:44 And the LORD gave them rest on every side just as he had sworn to their fathers. Not one of all their enemies had withstood them, for the LORD had given all their enemies into their hands. Jos 21:45 Not one word of all the good promises that the LORD had made to the house of Israel had failed; all came to pass. Jos 23:14 "And now I am about to go the way of all the earth, and you know in your hearts and souls, all of you, that not one word has failed of all the good things that the LORD your God promised concerning you. All have come to pass for you; not one of them has failed. Jos 23:15 But just as all the good things that the LORD your God promised concerning you have been fulfilled for you, so the LORD will bring upon you all the evil things, until he has destroyed you from off this good land that the LORD your God has given you, Jos 23:16 if you transgress the covenant of the LORD your God, which he commanded you, and go and serve other gods and bow down to them. Then the anger of the LORD will be kindled against you, and you shall perish quickly from off the good land that he has given to you."
If God's prophesy to destroy Nineveh was "absolute" with no way out as some would have it, then there was no point in giving the Ninevites 40 days to "believe" God. Clearly the threat of impending doom and the 40 days "grace" period was a means to that end. Jon 3:4 Jonah began to go into the city, going a day's journey. And he called out, "Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!" Jon 3:5 And the people of Nineveh believed God. They called for a fast and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them to the least of them.
Mat 24:33 So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. Mat 24:34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.Most of the older commentaries believe this prophesy refers to the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem in 70 AD. I'm inclined to believe that this is probably correct. We need to keep the original audience in mind when we determine what "this" means. First, notice that Jesus says in vs. 33, "when you see all these things." Second, the Greek word "houtos" translated "this" (plural "these") is used of things in close proximity. If Jesus had a future generation in mind he would have used the word "ekeinos" meaning "that" (plural "those") not "this." A distinction that some find helpful is that between the "near" and "far" demonstratives. The near is "this/these" and the far is "that/those." The idea is that "this/these" refers to something in relative proximity, and "that/those" to something relatively far away. William D. Mounce, Basics of Biblical Greek Grammar, p. 107, footnote #1The other thing to keep in mind is that we're careful not to push Hebrew apocalyptic imagery beyond its intended meaning--which is easier said than done.No, I'm not a heretical "full preterist" nor are the commentaries I consult. Also, I'm not here to debate eschatology. I merely offer this as a very plausible solution to a problem that many critics have rightly observed regarding Jesus' use of "this generation."
[quote name='Dad of 3;73514]Gotta problem. I'm debating a Mormon online and he brought up some things I can't answer (the first time that's ever happened). --Did God break his promise to Abraham about the land of Canaan?--What about the events with Jonah and Nineveh? False prophesies?--And when Jesus said (Matthew 24:36)that the end would come in "this" generation' date=' he couldn't have meant that generation alive at that time, could he? I need some help because I'm stuck in a theological quandry![/QUOTE']I think debating with people from groups like this to be most often a waste of time and energy.
That's fine, but I feel like this is exactly what I'm supposed to be doing. I understand them (in spite of their repeated accusations to the opposite) and speak their language. Most really are good people who have a distinctly incorrect notion of God. The only exception to this is the group such as their apostles, prophets, and quorum members who know that's it's garbage and still promote it anyway, thus gaining and keeping the church's favor and benefits. I firmly believe that I need to correct (or at least try) that notion whenever possible. I also believe that God is using my natural abilities and talent for language, grammar, and syntax to this end. Perhaps it's my way of proclaiming the good news of Jesus the way he intends. I hope so. If I reach only one person with what I do in the next 10 years, isn't that worth my time and effort?gervais;73550 said:
Thank you, Nomad. These are the best explanations I've gotten thus far on these matters and exactly what I was looking for. You rock!
God, has the power and the prophesy was never false. If they had not changed their ways, God would have punished. Jonah knew the people would repent and that God would forgive and not punish.The same is today..." For God so loved the World that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish but have eternal life." It is a prophecy too. Will those who do not believe have eternal when he comes? Will those who do believe have eternal life when he comes. A prophecy with the outcome based on the persons decision now.Is it any different, other than the time scale not being imminent?But the truth is that it is imminent to the persons own lifetime. Because once dead, the choice is not longer available so the prophecy is truth even before the choice made know or the decision made.Dad of 3;73514]Gotta problem. I said:
Christ, said that like the first buds was the sign that summer was coming.The events that would come to pass at that time would be the first buds and signs of the end being on the way within that generation. Read carefully what he is actually saying will happen. From the moment Christ died and was raised from the dead. The new covenant was in place never to be removed. The end was on the way... for now we are in the last times and have been since that generation. I hope it helps in some way to show that Christ did not predict the end but that it was the beginning of that which was to come. The start of the end times.Faithful.
[quote name='Dad of 3;73575]That's fine' date=' but I feel like this is exactly what I'm supposed to be doing. I understand them (in spite of their repeated accusations to the opposite) and speak their language. Most really are good people who have a distinctly incorrect notion of God. The only exception to this is the group such as their apostles, prophets, and quorum members who know that's it's garbage and still promote it anyway, thus gaining and keeping the church's favor and benefits. I firmly believe that I need to correct (or at least try) that notion whenever possible. I also believe that God is using my natural abilities and talent for language, grammar, and syntax to this end. Perhaps it's my way of proclaiming the good news of Jesus the way he intends. I hope so. If I reach only one person with what I do in the next 10 years, isn't that [COLOR=blue']worth my time and effort[/COLOR]?[/QUOTE] Yes it is for we are "sons of man." :) Ezekiel 3:4-5 And He said unto me, "Son of man, go, get thee unto the house of Israel, and speak with My words unto them. For thou art not sent to a people of a strange speech and of an hard language, but to the house of Israel; 3:8 Behold, I have made thy face strong against their faces, and thy forehead strong against their foreheads. 3:10-11 Moreover He said unto me, "Son of man, all My words that I shall speak unto thee receive in thine heart, and hear with thine ears. And go, get thee to them of the captivity, unto the children of thy People, and speak unto them, and tell them, 'Thus saith the Lord GOD;' whether they will hear,or whether they will forbear."
Thank you for the support. Again, I feel I'm doing exactly what I am supposed to be doing and feel that it's of God in order to dispel the lies and nonsense about Him. Mormons say that they accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, but there are a lot of amendments, loopholes, and endless works, works, works to get to that point. This legalism is the same as Catholic legalism in that it distracts people from the center of Christianity: Jesus!whirlwind;73584][B]Yes it is for we are "[I]sons of man[/I]." :)[/B] [B]Ezekiel 3:4-5 And He said unto me said:
There's not? I sat, stood, and knelt my way through 14 years of attending Catholic Church and three years of Catholic school. You apparently misunderstand the meaning of the term. The legalism is very apparent in the stations of the cross, Lent, Advent, the rosary, etc noe of which have a Biblical basis. This doesn't take into account the false teachings about the eternal virginity of Mary or the Eucharist being the real flesh and blood of Jesus Christ Almighty.
EAHARA
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Legalism, as I was taught it as a Protestant, is the attempting to obtain salvation by means of what we do -- i.e., the works that we perform so as to put God under obligation to give us salvation.
Do you agree with that definition?
I agree with that in that the Catholic Church is strict about the way it requires ceremonies and how it performs said ceremonies. Catholic dogma is that it's their way or the highway, no middle ground. It's all so mindless and repetitive that God couldn't possibly want us to be bored out of our skulls during His worship. And then to leave full of guilt in any event makes it that much worse. This is the reason that people only run from Catholicism, rarely to it.
EAHARA
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That was not the question I asked. Please go back and re ready my answer and tell me if you agree with that definition of "legalism"
As for the strictness in the ceremonies, do you think that God allowed the Israelites to make up their own worship because they were "bored?" Do you think they did ceremony the way they wanted to, or did they have a very strict and repetitive pattern of worship?
And why did you leave "full of guilt?" The whole purpose of the Liturgy is that we are to be filled with joy. Did you have some sort of priest who failed to tell you of the beauty of God's forgiveness through the Eucharist?
Oh, one more thing.....in the last decade there has been a large and ever increasing influx of people in to the Catholic Faith (and Orthodoxy also). Many of them are folks such as Scott Hahn, who was a strident anti-Catholic PCA minister and who would never in his life have imagined that he would convert. When people find the Truth, they are at first repelled by it, then find it oddly attractive, and finally run to it for the beauty which it holds within.
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