False Teaching: Mary died a virgin. Biblical Proof Mary had children.

[Cassandra]

That is a beautiful statue to recognize and respect The Mother of God. I am willing to bet it made Jesus happy that men were building a statue to honor her. Where is that at?

I don't think we are supposed to make statues of religious entities and venerate them.

 

[Marymog]

I don't think we are supposed to make statues of religious entities and venerate them.

Hi Cassandra,

The making of "religious entities" is not prohibited. It is the veneration (worship) of those entities that is prohibited. Scripture and The Church has always taught that.

So I stand by my statement: I am willing to bet it made Jesus happy that men were building a statue to honor her.

Do you disagree with that statement????????

Curious Mary

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

Thanks Rella for this opportunity to teach you and your fellow Protestants your Christian History.

It is not true that my "Catholic Bishops say differently". Here is the teaching of The Church:

Until is often used in Scripture as part of an idiomatic expression similar to our own usage in English. I may say to you, “Until we meet again, God bless you.” Does that necessarily mean after we meet again, God curse you? A phrase like this is used to emphasize what is being described before the until is fulfilled. Here are some biblical examples:

• 2 Samuel 6:23: And Michal the daughter of Saul had no child to (until) the day of her death. (Does this mean she had children after she died?)
• 1 Timothy 4:13: Until I come, attend to the public reading of scripture, to preaching, to teaching. (Does this mean Timothy should stop teaching after Paul comes?)
• 1 Corinthians 15:25: For he (Christ) must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. (Does this mean Christ’s reign will end? By no means! Luke 1:33 says, “he will reign over the house of Jacob forever and of his kingdom there shall be no end.”)

Some have argued that because Matthew 1:25 uses the Greek words heos hou for “until” whereas the texts I mentioned above from the New Testament use heos alone, there is a difference in meaning. The argument goes that Heos hou indicates the action of the first clause does not continue. Thus, Mary and Joseph “not having come together” would have ended after Jesus was born.

The problems with this theory begin with the fact that no available scholarship concurs with it. In fact, the evidence proves the contrary. Heos hou and heos are used interchangeably and have the same meaning. Acts 25:21 should suffice to clear up the matter: “But when Paul had appealed to be kept in custody for the decision of the emperor, I commanded him to be held until (Gk. heos hou) I could send him to Caesar.” Does this mean that Paul would not be held in custody after he was “sent” to Caesar? Not according to the biblical record. He would be held in custody while in transit (see Acts 27:1) and after he arrived in Rome for a time (see Acts 29:16). The action of the main clause did not cease with heos hou.

Now I suspect that YOU, Rella, are referring to this line in that link you provided: The Greek word translated “until” does not imply normal marital conduct after Jesus’ birth, nor does it exclude it. Soooooo The Church does NOT teach different than Scripture.

I challenge you to give me, from Scripture, the names of Mary's other Children!!!

Now in regard to what Christianity has taught in regard to Mary and her perpetual virginity from a non catholic source:

Which church father first taught the perpetual virginity of Mary?


For you see Rella, YOUR Christian history starts in the 16th century when men protested the 1,500 year teaching of The Church. My Christian History started with the Apostolic Fathers.

Have you ever read the Apostolic/church Fathers?

Curious Mary

Hello Mary,

I prefer to look at it that in the 16th century the errors were corrected.

Now, I know exactly what you are going to say when I supply you with what the bible says.... YOU are going to say these were his cousins or
half siblings..... Do you really think the inspired word of God would be deliberately misleading?
Mark 6: 3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of [a]James and Joses and Judas and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?” And they took offense at Him.

What about when John 2:12 gives us another hint as we answer the question of whether Mary had other children: “After this he went down to Capernaum with his mother and brothers and his disciples.” ?

Finally as to your concern and explaining away the word until....

Look specifically what the Greek/English interlinear said on the subject if they ever got together or not...

You know... that language that the originators of the original church spoke if it was not Aramaic.

καὶ οὐκ ἐγίνωσκεν αὐτὴν ἕως οὗ ἔτεκεν υἱόν ; καὶ ἐκάλεσεν τὸ
and not knew her until that she also had brought forth a son and he called the name

αὐτοῦ Ἰησοῦν .
of Him Jesus

I believe you, as well as all here know the biblical meaning of "knew"

 

[Johann]

[Act 25:21 NIV] 21 But when Paul made his appeal to be held over for the Emperor's decision, I ordered him held until I could send him to Caesar."

• Was Paul no longer "held over" as soon as he was loaded on the boat and "sent"? ... UNTIL does not mean the condition must end after, only that it cannot end BEFORE.

[2Pe 1:19 NIV] 19 We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.

• When the "day dawns", does the lamp immediately stop "shining"? ... UNTIL does not mean the condition must end after, only that it cannot end BEFORE.

[Mat 1:24-25 NIV] 24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25 But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

• When Jesus was born, did Joseph consummate the marriage in 'Stable' after she gave birth and before they named him Jesus? ... UNTIL does not mean the condition must end after, only that it cannot end BEFORE.

Problametic-

Mat_1:25. καὶ οὐκ ἐγίνωσκεν … υἱόν: absolute habitual (note the imperfect) abstinence from marital intercourse, the sole purpose of the hastened marriage being to legitimise the child.—ἕως: not till then, and afterwards?

Here comes in a quæstio vexata of theology. Patristic and catholic authors say: not till then and never at all, guarding the sacredness of the virgin’s womb.

ἕως does not settle the question. It is easy to cite instances of its use as fixing a limit up to which a specified event did not occur, when as a matter of fact it did not occur at all. E.g., Gen_8:7; the raven returned not till the waters were dried up; in fact, never returned (Schanz).

But the presumption is all the other way in the case before us.

Subsequent intercourse was the natural, if not the necessary, course of things.

If the evangelist had felt as the Catholics do, he would have taken pains to prevent misunderstanding.—υἱόν: the extended reading (T. R.) is imported from Luk_2:7, where there are no variants.

πρωτότοκον is not a stumbling-block to the champions of the perpetual virginity, because the first may be the only. Euthymius quotes in proof Isa_44:6 : “I am the first, and I am the last, and beside Me there is no God.”
Exp-Greek.

 

[David in NJ]

Problametic-

Mat_1:25. καὶ οὐκ ἐγίνωσκεν … υἱόν: absolute habitual (note the imperfect) abstinence from marital intercourse, the sole purpose of the hastened marriage being to legitimise the child.—ἕως: not till then, and afterwards?

Here comes in a quæstio vexata of theology. Patristic and catholic authors say: not till then and never at all, guarding the sacredness of the virgin’s womb.

ἕως does not settle the question. It is easy to cite instances of its use as fixing a limit up to which a specified event did not occur, when as a matter of fact it did not occur at all. E.g., Gen_8:7; the raven returned not till the waters were dried up; in fact, never returned (Schanz).

But the presumption is all the other way in the case before us.

Subsequent intercourse was the natural, if not the necessary, course of things.

If the evangelist had felt as the Catholics do, he would have taken pains to prevent misunderstanding.—υἱόν: the extended reading (T. R.) is imported from Luk_2:7, where there are no variants.

πρωτότοκον is not a stumbling-block to the champions of the perpetual virginity, because the first may be the only. Euthymius quotes in proof Isa_44:6 : “I am the first, and I am the last, and beside Me there is no God.”
Exp-Greek.

"until" has a determination pre-established by the Creator = See Genesis chapters 1 and 2

Regarding the God Ordained Marriage between Joseph and Mary = once the time definition of "until" was completed (Jesus birth) Joseph and Mary had God Ordained sexual relations in the God Ordained Marriage Bed between them = Mary had children from Joseph.

 

[Johann]

Regarding the God Ordained Marriage between Joseph and Mary = once the time definition of "until" was completed, Joseph and Mary
had God Ordained sexual relations in the God Ordained Marriage Bed between them = Mary had children from Joseph.

In full agreement @David in NJ
Johann

 

[David in NJ]

In full agreement @David in NJ
Johann

Just checking in with you my Brother because i enjoy your fellowship in the Truth and we have not spoken in some time.

 

[David in NJ]

"until" has a determination pre-established by the Creator = See Genesis chapters 1 and 2

Regarding the God Ordained Marriage between Joseph and Mary = once the time definition of "until" was completed (Jesus birth) Joseph and Mary had God Ordained sexual relations in the God Ordained Marriage Bed between them = Mary had children from Joseph.

i want to further add that this is a Commandment confirmed by the LORD Jesus Christ and FULLY applied to Joseph and Mary.


Mark 10:2-9
The Pharisees came and asked Him, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?” testing Him.

3And He answered and said to them, “What did Moses command you?”

4They said, “Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce, and to dismiss her.”

5And Jesus answered and said to them, “Because of the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. 6But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’ 7‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, 8and the two shall become one flesh’; so then they are no longer two, but one flesh.
Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”

 

[atpollard]

Problametic-

Mat_1:25. καὶ οὐκ ἐγίνωσκεν … υἱόν: absolute habitual (note the imperfect) abstinence from marital intercourse, the sole purpose of the hastened marriage being to legitimise the child.—ἕως: not till then, and afterwards?

Here comes in a quæstio vexata of theology. Patristic and catholic authors say: not till then and never at all, guarding the sacredness of the virgin’s womb.

ἕως does not settle the question. It is easy to cite instances of its use as fixing a limit up to which a specified event did not occur, when as a matter of fact it did not occur at all. E.g., Gen_8:7; the raven returned not till the waters were dried up; in fact, never returned (Schanz).

But the presumption is all the other way in the case before us.

Subsequent intercourse was the natural, if not the necessary, course of things.

If the evangelist had felt as the Catholics do, he would have taken pains to prevent misunderstanding.—υἱόν: the extended reading (T. R.) is imported from Luk_2:7, where there are no variants.

πρωτότοκον is not a stumbling-block to the champions of the perpetual virginity, because the first may be the only. Euthymius quotes in proof Isa_44:6 : “I am the first, and I am the last, and beside Me there is no God.”
Exp-Greek.

I agree. I was merely addressing a small point of English grammar that UNTIL did not REQUIRE that the event end. The English rendering allows for the possibility (however improbable or unnatural) that Mary and Joseph NEVER had sex.

I agree that Jesus had half-brothers and Mary had other children (based on the totality of the narrative).

 

[Illuminator]

God did not choose Mary to be a re-useable incubator. Mary having other children diminishes the uniqueness of the Incarnation. That's why I say the notion is diabolical. Before the Enlightenment Era not a single Protestant church taught that Mary had other children because none of the early reformers taught it. But anti-Mary Christians can disagree with their own reformers which makes them true Protestants.

Joseph was a just/righteous man (Matthew 1:19) and Mary was a Living Temple. Only the High Priest could enter the Temple once a year, not some uneducated carpenter, and Joseph must have known about the sanctity of a Living Temple, being a righteous Jew.

Mary: The Blessed Virgin (Index Page)

Index page for Catholic apologist Dave Armstrong, on he Blessed Virgin Mary & Catholic Mariology (with heavy emphasis on biblical arguments)

www.patheos.com

 

[David in NJ]

Mary having children diminishes the diabolical and perversity of idolizing and worship of Mary.
Perverting the God Ordained Marriage between Joseph and Mary.

God Ordained marriage is for pro-creation = Genesis chapter 2

And the Lord God said, “It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.” 19Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to [g]Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name. 20So Adam gave names to all cattle, to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper comparable to him.

21And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. 22Then the rib which the Lord God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.

23And Adam said:

“This is now bone of my bones
And flesh of my flesh;
She shall be called Woman,
Because she was taken out of Man.”

24Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

25And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

 

[BeyondET]

A 30 year marriage, this is about the last time Joseph is mentioned. Later Mary is a widow and a disciple takes her in.

55 “Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t His mother’s name Mary, and aren’t His brothers James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas?

All His sisters seems like quite afew, like eight is enough.

56Aren’t all His sisters with us as well? Where then did this man get all these things?”…

 

[David in NJ]

In that day and age it was considered a curse from God for a married woman to be barren.

Not only did God bless Mary with choosing her to receive her Savior within her womb but God continued to bless Mary to be fruitful with her husband Joseph.
Let us not forget Joseph's faithfulness to God in this process = Matthew 1:18-25

Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. 19Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not wanting to make her a public example, was minded to put her away secretly. 20But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”

22So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: 23“Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

24Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife, 25and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name Jesus.

NOTICE how God describes Joseph as Mary's husband, which meant God approved of Jospeh and Mary's sexual relations in holy matrimony.

Hebrews 13:4 Marriage is honorable among all, and the bed undefiled; but fornicators and adulterers God will judge.

 

[BeyondET]

I wouldn't be surprised if Jesus had twelve bothers and sisters.

 

[David in NJ]

I wouldn't be surprised if Jesus had twelve bothers and sisters

All the catholics will be greatly surprised.

 

[BeyondET]

God did not choose Mary to be a re-useable incubator. Mary having other children diminishes the uniqueness of the Incarnation. That's why I say the notion is diabolical. Before the Enlightenment Era not a single Protestant church taught that Mary had other children because none of the early reformers taught it. But anti-Mary Christians can disagree with their own reformers which makes them true Protestants.

Joseph was a just/righteous man (Matthew 1:19) and Mary was a Living Temple. Only the High Priest could enter the Temple once a year, not some uneducated carpenter, and Joseph must have known about the sanctity of a Living Temple, being a righteous Jew.

Mary: The Blessed Virgin (Index Page)

Index page for Catholic apologist Dave Armstrong, on he Blessed Virgin Mary & Catholic Mariology (with heavy emphasis on biblical arguments)

www.patheos.com

The discarded lining of the uterus certainly can be an incarnation like man from dirt. No need for egg incubation that is unique among humans.

 

[Marymog]

Hello Mary,

I prefer to look at it that in the 16th century the errors were corrected.

Now, I know exactly what you are going to say when I supply you with what the bible says.... YOU are going to say these were his cousins or
half siblings..... Do you really think the inspired word of God would be deliberately misleading?
Mark 6: 3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of [a]James and Joses and Judas and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?” And they took offense at Him.

What about when John 2:12 gives us another hint as we answer the question of whether Mary had other children: “After this he went down to Capernaum with his mother and brothers and his disciples.” ?

Finally as to your concern and explaining away the word until....

Look specifically what the Greek/English interlinear said on the subject if they ever got together or not...

You know... that language that the originators of the original church spoke if it was not Aramaic.

καὶ οὐκ ἐγίνωσκεν αὐτὴν ἕως οὗ ἔτεκεν υἱόν ; καὶ ἐκάλεσεν τὸ
and not knew her until that she also had brought forth a son and he called the name

αὐτοῦ Ἰησοῦν .
of Him Jesus

I believe you, as well as all here know the biblical meaning of "knew"

Hi Rella,

Let me see if I have your theory correct. The teaching of The Church that Mary was always a virgin and never had other children was an "error" and God waited 1,600 years to correct that error? Your 16th century time frame of God fixing that "error" suggests that God used the men of the Reformation to correct that "error". Even though the men from the Reformation disagreed with each other on other doctrines/truths/interpretations of Scripture....... they got the teaching that Mary had other children right?

Is that what you are suggesting?

Mary

 

[amigo de christo]

i want to further add that this is a Commandment confirmed by the LORD Jesus Christ and FULLY applied to Joseph and Mary.


Mark 10:2-9
The Pharisees came and asked Him, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?” testing Him.

3And He answered and said to them, “What did Moses command you?”

4They said, “Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce, and to dismiss her.”

5And Jesus answered and said to them, “Because of the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. 6But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’ 7‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, 8and the two shall become one flesh’; so then they are no longer two, but one flesh.
Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”

Just a friendly reminder to all GOD created them male and female . Man cannot recreate how GOD created them either .
Nor can humanity try and add in many other genders into the equation .
Plus A man leaves Mother and Father to be joined to his wife . aka marriage is between one man and one woman .
I noticed something a while back my friend .
There was a debate occuring between false christains , aka those who profess to KNOW HIM yet DENY HIM
and a true christain .
Now the transgender , who too cliamed to be christain said aloud and proud, GOD does not make mistakes
Had he wanted me to be a man he would not have put the thoughts into my head that i was a woman .
Cause GOD dont make mistakes said the transgender .
And the false crowd cheered and cheered as they embraced the transgender and made SLURS against the true christian .
OH but you could have heard a pin drop when the true lamb then answered and said this ,
YOU are correct in that you said GOD does not make mistakes . IN that you said rightly for GOD makes no mistakes .
WHY IS it then you believe HE MADE A MISTAKE WHEN HE CREATED YOU AS MALE . KABOOM
exactly . THEY CANNOT SEE my friend .
And now a word .
The lost do not realize something . THE DEVIL , the flesh , other spirits
can and do TEMPT CHILDREN with LIES as they do adults . YOU SEE
what The transgender tried to say was the voice of GOD trying to convince him he was to be female
was NOT GOD AT ALL . Rather it was he who desires to be as god trying to convince the person
TO recreate themselves in their own image . Be blessed my friends . THE LAMBS GONNA STICK TO GOD and TO HIS WORDS .

 

[Marymog]

Hello Mary,

I prefer to look at it that in the 16th century the errors were corrected.

Now, I know exactly what you are going to say when I supply you with what the bible says.... YOU are going to say these were his cousins or
half siblings..... Do you really think the inspired word of God would be deliberately misleading?
Mark 6: 3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of [a]James and Joses and Judas and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?” And they took offense at Him.

What about when John 2:12 gives us another hint as we answer the question of whether Mary had other children: “After this he went down to Capernaum with his mother and brothers and his disciples.” ?

Finally as to your concern and explaining away the word until....

Look specifically what the Greek/English interlinear said on the subject if they ever got together or not...

You know... that language that the originators of the original church spoke if it was not Aramaic.

καὶ οὐκ ἐγίνωσκεν αὐτὴν ἕως οὗ ἔτεκεν υἱόν ; καὶ ἐκάλεσεν τὸ
and not knew her until that she also had brought forth a son and he called the name

αὐτοῦ Ἰησοῦν .
of Him Jesus

I believe you, as well as all here know the biblical meaning of "knew"

Hi Rella,

Thanks for having quotes from Scripture to support what you have been taught instead of just giving your opinion and nothing to back it up. Others on here do that and it' frustrating to have a conversation with them.

It appears you are using Mark 6:3 to answer my question to you about providing the names of Jesus' brothers. Mark 6:3 lists James, Joses (Joseph), Jude and Simon as his brothers.

James and Joseph (also called Joses) are indeed the children of Mary, just not Mary the mother of Jesus. In Matthew’s account of the crucifixion and death of Jesus, he writes: “There were also many women there, looking on from afar, who had followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering to him; among who were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee.”

Jude describes himself (Jude 1:5) as the brother of James.

Simon, or Symeon, is mentioned in Eusebius as the son of Clopas.

In summary I have given you Scripture and historical Christian writings to account for those "brothers". So my question to you is: Based on the passages from Scripture I have given you AND a historical account from 1,700 years ago (Eusebius) that accounts for those "brothers" do you still believe what your 16th century men have taught you?

Curious Mary

PS: When I say 16th century men I don't mean Martin Luther and John Calvin since they taught that Mary did not have other children

 

[Marymog]

Hello Mary,

........................

Finally as to your concern and explaining away the word until....

Look specifically what the Greek/English interlinear said on the subject if they ever got together or not...

You know... that language that the originators of the original church spoke if it was not Aramaic.

καὶ οὐκ ἐγίνωσκεν αὐτὴν ἕως οὗ ἔτεκεν υἱόν ; καὶ ἐκάλεσεν τὸ
and not knew her until that she also had brought forth a son and he called the name

αὐτοῦ Ἰησοῦν .
of Him Jesus

I believe you, as well as all here know the biblical meaning of "knew"

Hey Rella,


Yes. I know the biblical meaning of "knew". Scripture makes it clear that Joseph did not 'know' Mary before Jesus’ birth, thus establishing the doctrine of Jesus’ virginal birth! The verse you provided showing that they did not 'know' each other before Jesus' birth does not mean that Joseph had sexual relations with Mary AFTER Jesus was born. To hold that opinion makes NO SENSE. That opinion is ADDING TO SCRIPTURE something that isn't there. That verse simply means that Joseph was not the father of Jesus because they did not have sex before she got pregnant. Furthermore, we have this from Scripture:

• 2 Samuel 6:23: And Michal the daughter of Saul had no child to (until) the day of her death. (Does this mean she had children after she died?)
• 1 Timothy 4:13: Until I come, attend to the public reading of scripture, to preaching, to teaching. (Does this mean Timothy should stop teaching after Paul comes?)
• 1 Corinthians 15:25: For he (Christ) must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. (Does this mean Christ’s reign will end? By no means! Luke 1:33 says, “he will reign over the house of Jacob forever and of his kingdom there shall be no end.”)

The earliest writings (starting about 20 years after the death of the Apostle John) from your own Christian history support that Mary never had other children and that she was a perpetual virgin. You have accepted the teachings of the men from the 16th century. Why?

Curious Mary