False Teaching: Mary died a virgin. Biblical Proof Mary had children.

[BreadOfLife]

What verses actually teach that Mary did not have normal married relations with Joseph after the birth of Christ ?

What verses teach that she DID have normal marital relations and that she had other children?
Read my last post #680 for a fuller explanation . . .

 

[sondring7]

What verses teach that she DID have normal marital relations and that she had other children?
Read my last post #680 for a fuller explanation . . .

1 Cor 7
2Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
3Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.
4The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.
..
Sex is part of marriage, go waste your time with others, I have no further interest in your nonsense.

 

[Armour of God]

There are no bible verses that teach that Mary was a perpetual virgin.

However there are verses that teach that she wasn't

Matthew 1:25
Matthew 13:55–56
Mark 6:3
Matthew 12:46
Mark 3:31
Luke 8:19

 

[sondring7]

There are no bible verses that teach that Mary was a perpetual virgin.

However there are verses that teach that she wasn't

Matthew 1:25
Matthew 13:55–56
Mark 6:3
Matthew 12:46
Mark 3:31
Luke 8:19

Don't forget ao only Catholics are saved, ask the Vatican !!! :)

 

[Armour of God]

Don't forget ao only Catholics are saved, ask the Vatican !!! :)

I see your fairly new here.
Welcome to the forum fellow Christian Aussie and may Gods peace and grace be with you and yours

 

[BreadOfLife]

1 Cor 7
2Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
3Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.
4The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.
Sex is part of marriage, go waste your time with others, I have no further interest in your nonsense.

Like I said – you don’t read the posts, so you pretend that these arguments haven’t already been DESTROYED. Go back and read my post #675, where educated you guys about the fact that God CAN and DOES makes exceptions to work His will . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Don't forget ao only Catholics are saved, ask the Vatican !!! :)

That's NOT what the Catholic Church teaches.
It's just another lie, vomited out by a yet another uninformed anti-Catholic.

But, at LEAST you're consistent . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

There are no bible verses that teach that Mary was a perpetual virgin.
However there are verses that teach that she wasn't
Matthew 1:25
Matthew 13:55–56
Mark 6:3
Matthew 12:46
Mark 3:31
Luke 8:19

It's too bad that you haven't read ANY of the previous posts.

These verses have already been debunked as showing the Adelphoi of Jesus were uterine siblings. In fact, they've been shown to be the children of Mary's kinswoman - Mary, wife of Clopus/Alphaeus. In other words, they are the KINSMAN of Jesus.

I also meticulously laid out the argument for the Greek Adelphos(oi), and it's Hebrew twin, Ach', add nauseum . . .

I've shown that the overwhelming majority of the uses of the word Adelphos(oi)/Adelphe in the NT do NOT equate to 'uterine siblings'.

It would be easier for you to just admit that you don't understand Scripture or 1st century Jewish culture - and are completely puzzled by the languages used therein.
With you guys, it's always blind denial, with ZERO evidence . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Sex is part of marriage, go waste your time with others, I have no further interest in your nonsense.

The very fact that you CANNOT and WILL NOT provide a vallid response to my post #680 is the reason why I can't take you seriously.

It's painfully obvious why you have "no further interest".
Your silence, while continuing to repeated already debunked issues lash outspeaks fopr itself . . .

 

[Wrangler]

There are no bible verses that teach that Mary was a perpetual virgin.

However there are verses that teach that she wasn't

Matthew 1:25
Matthew 13:55–56
Mark 6:3
Matthew 12:46
Mark 3:31
Luke 8:19

Yesterday in devotional reading, I came across Acts 1:14
This whole group devoted themselves to constant prayer with one accord: Peter, John, James, Andrew, Philip, Thomas, Bartholomew, Matthew, James (son of Alphaeus), Simon (the Zealot), Judas (son of James), a number of women including Mary (Jesus’ mother), and some of Jesus’ brothers.

As a boy, I asked a priest about the idea of Mary being a virgin forever in light of Scripture referring to his brothers. The priest invoked eisegesis, playing in my ignorance, claiming Scripture meant the Apostles, his spiritual brothers. The verse above parses his spiritual brothers from his regular, old fashioned, biological brothers.

This is language usage. IF they were his half brothers, Scripture would make that clear. When one refers to brothers or sisters, it is mean as biological unless the qualifier is added, such as step or half. Of course, the context could imply metaphorical brother, such as brother in arms.

It always bothers me that some Christians are opposed to sex in marriage and the natural result being children in this case. It’s so odd!

 

[GeneZ]

NOT exactly . . .

First of all - yove pout yourself in the SAME quandary by failing to provide Scriptural evidence for the claim that Mary DID have other children.

You see, since the time of the Apostles - the Church has NEVER taught that everything we believe and teach MUST first appear on the pages of Scripture. If it DID – then, virtually MILLIONS of Christians in the first 3 centuries of the Church would have been LOST. The Bible was not compiled and declared canonical until the Catholic Church declared the Canon in 383AD at the Council of Rome.

THIS is the problem with the man-made invention that is Sola Scriptura. The 16th century mad-made mess that declared ONLY that which is in Scripture is to be believed.

If Protestants took their belief in Sola Scriptura as seriously as they take their anti-Catholicism – then they’d have to explain WHY the following Protestant beliefs and practices are NOT found in Scripture . . .

• Sola Scriptura
• Sola Fide
• The “Sinner’s Prayer”
• Altar Calles
• “Once Saved, Always Saved”
• Irresistible Grace
• Limited Atonement
• Unconditional Election

Paul states explicitly that Christianity is NOT based on Sola Scriptura . . .
2 Thess. 2:15
So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the TRADITIONS that you were taught by us, EITHER BY our spoken word OR BY our letter.

This is why we see the following UNBIBLICAL claims being made by Jesus and the Apostles:
Matt. 2:23 - the prophecy "He shall be a Nazarene" is ORAL TRADITION. It is not found in the Old Testament. This demonstrates that the apostles relied upon oral tradition and taught by oral tradition.

Matt 23:2 - Jesus relies on the ORAL TRADITION of acknowledging Moses' seat of authority (which passed from Moses to Joshua to the Sanhedrin). This is not recorded in the Old Testament.

1 Cor. 10:4 - Paul relies on the ORAL TRADITION of the rock following Moses. It is not recorded in the Old Testament. See Exod. 17:1-17 and Num. 20:2-13.

2 Timothy 3:8 - Paul relies on the ORAL TRADITION when speaking of Pharoah’s magicians, Jannes and Jambres. Their names are not recorded in the Old Testament.

Heb. 11:37 - the author of Hebrews relies on the ORAL TRADITION of the martyrs being sawed in two. This is not recorded in the Old Testament.

Jude 9 - Jude relies on the ORAL TRADITION of the Archangel Michael's dispute with satan over Moses' body. This is not found in the Old Testament.

Jude 14-15 - Jude relies on the ORAL TRADITION of Enoch's prophecy which is not recorded in the Old Testament.

Sola Scriptura is a 16th century PROTESTANT invention. It was NEVER practiced by the Church going ALL the way back to the Apostles. Jesus gave the following Authority to His Church as a whole – and NOT too the individual:
Matt 16:16-19, 18:15-18
WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven; and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

John 16:12-15
“I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.
But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to ALL truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to YOU the things that are coming.
He will glorify me, because he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.
Everything that the Father has is MINE; for this reason I told you that he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.

Luke 10:16
Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME."

1 Cor. 11:2
"I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the TRADITIONS even as I have delivered them to you".


So, I believe in the Perpetual Virginity because this is what Christ’s Church has ALWAYS taught – AND the fact that there is NO Biblical evidence for denying it . . .

How's that gnat you've been straining out?

 

[BreadOfLife]

How's that gnat you've been straining out?

Incorrect use of a Biblical lesson.
Jesus' rebuke of the Parisees about straining a gnat in Matt. 23:23-24 is about following the LETTER of the Law without actually livinig it. It has nothing to do with this argument.

I have provided mountains of evidence and have gotten almost nothing in return.

 

[amigo de christo]

That's NOT what the Catholic Church teaches.
It's just another lie, vomited out by a yet another uninformed anti-Catholic.

But, at LEAST you're consistent . . .

now on this you said truly . wait , wait dont pat yourself on the back just yet .
CAUSE I SEEN what yalls popes tell this people .
And it adds up to this . OH YA AINT GOT TO BELIEVE ON JESUS
HEY muslims , buddists , hindues , jews and all relgions are serving the same GOD a christain does .
YA REALLY THINK i am gonna beleieve that which is of anti christ , let alone sit under it and j oin in unity with it .
That unholy mother of harlots simply desires to be queen over all the religions
And she does bELEIEVE those who sit under her are the saved ones .
SOON eno ugh she and her co workers in TEH FALSE religoins
will also go to war
against any and all who did not conform to a harlots love and to the lie of anti christ for world peace .
SO . My advice is , and I DO PRAY YOU HEAR IT and RECIEVE IT .
THAT every man and every woman and their children better get out of anything ecumeincal NOW .
I dont expect YOU to believe that . buT HOW abouts ya do something YOU SH OULD have been doing all along .
READING THE BIbLE for yourself . ITS NOT A SIN to do so .
OPEN it . ENJOY IT for yourself . YOU SEE , what by grace i came to see years and years ago .
THIS PEOPLE IS IN DIRE DANGER . not only does a whole lot of christendom , which means catholic and protestant ,
knows what is has lost , IT DONT KNOW IT IS LOST .

 

[GeneZ]

Incorrect use of a Biblical lesson.
Jesus' rebuke of the Parisees about straining a gnat in Matt. 23:23-24 is about following the LETTER of the Law without actually livinig it. It has nothing to do with this argument.

I have provided mountains of evidence and have gotten almost nothing in return.

This thread bounces back and forth so much one can not be sure after a while as to whom said what.

So to make sure I understand where you stand on this issue?
I will simply ask.

Do you believe Mary remained a virgin after Jesus was born?

That is the Catholic position.
Is it yours too?

 

[BreadOfLife]

This thread bounces back and forth so much one can not be sure after a while as to whom said what.

So to make sure I understand where you stand on this issue?
I will simply ask.

Do you believe Mary remained a virgin after Jesus was born?
That is the Catholic position.
Is it yours too?

Yes. This is what I’ve been arguing ALL along.

However, as I have shown – this isn’t just the belief of the Catholic Church. It was also the teaching of the Protestant Fathers in the 16th century. This belief was only abandoned later, as Protestantism continued to splinter and splinter . . .

 

[GeneZ]

Yes. This is what I’ve been arguing ALL along.

However, as I have shown – this isn’t just the belief of the Catholic Church. It was also the teaching of the Protestant Fathers in the 16th century. This belief was only abandoned later, as Protestantism continued to splinter and splinter . . .

The Protestant Fathers were, in a sense, graduates of the Catholic church.
Some traditions continued.
In essence...
Due to the lack of that many years RCC teachings.
Many breaking free were just beginning to learn to rightly interpret.

 

[BreadOfLife]

now on this you said truly . wait , wait dont pat yourself on the back just yet .
CAUSE I SEEN what yalls popes tell this people .
And it adds up to this . OH YA AINT GOT TO BELIEVE ON JESUS
HEY muslims , buddists , hindues , jews and all relgions are serving the same GOD a christain does .

This is patently FALSE. But I’m NOT surprised because MOST of the confused and misinformed manure that you post is filled with inaccuracies, misinformation and outright LIES . . .

I openly-challenge you to show me a SINGLE quote – IN CONTEXT, of a Pope claiming that we don’t need Christ in order to be saved.

against any and all who did not conform to a harlots love and to the lie of anti christ for world peace .
SO . My advice is , and I DO PRAY YOU HEAR IT and RECIEVE IT .
THAT every man and every woman and their children better get out of anything ecumeincal NOW .
I dont expect YOU to believe that . buT HOW abouts ya do something YOU SH OULD have been doing all along .
READING THE BIbLE for yourself . ITS NOT A SIN to do so .
OPEN it . ENJOY IT for yourself . YOU SEE , what by grace i came to see years and years ago .
THIS PEOPLE IS IN DIRE DANGER . not only does a whole lot of christendom , which means catholic and protestant ,
knows what is has lost , IT DONT KNOW IT IS LOST .

Yes, we’ve ALL heard it. EVERYBODY in in danger – but YOU.

Oh - and the Church doesn’t teach that reading the Bible is a sin.
Maybe it’s best if you just stop lying now . . .

Rev. 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and ALL LIARS, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

 

[Armour of God]

It's too bad that you haven't read ANY of the previous posts.

These verses have already been debunked as showing the Adelphoi of Jesus were uterine siblings. In fact, they've been shown to be the children of Mary's kinswoman - Mary, wife of Clopus/Alphaeus. In other words, they are the KINSMAN of Jesus.

I also meticulously laid out the argument for the Greek Adelphos(oi), and it's Hebrew twin, Ach', add nauseum . . .

I've shown that the overwhelming majority of the uses of the word Adelphos(oi)/Adelphe in the NT do NOT equate to 'uterine siblings'.

It would be easier for you to just admit that you don't understand Scripture or 1st century Jewish culture - and are completely puzzled by the languages used therein.
With you guys, it's always blind denial, with ZERO evidence . . .

Debunked. Hahahaha. Please.

Like im going to believe your twisted translation of ancient Greek.

All those verses I listed are strong evidence against perpetual virginity.

You've debunked nothing. You only tried to add some doubt. A very small amount if doubt

In the end their is no biblical evidence for perpetual virginity. That's my main point

 

[BreadOfLife]

The Protestant Fathers were, in a sense, graduates of the Catholic church.
Some traditions continued.
In essence...
Due to the lack of that many years RCC teachings.
Many breaking free were just beginning to learn to rightly interpret.

Complete nonsense.

First of all - they broke with many doctrinal positions and claimed to know Scripture BETTER than Catholics.

“If I, Dr. Luther, had thought that all the Papists together were capable of translating even one passage of Scripture correctly and well, I would have gathered up enough humility to ask for their aid and assistance in translating the New Testament into German.”

“I know quite well how much skill, hard work, understanding and intelligence is needed for a good translation. They know it less than even the miller's donkey for they have never tried it.

“You tell me what a great fuss the Papists are making because the word alone is not in the text of Paul…say right out to him: ‘Dr. Martin Luther will have it so,’…I will have it so, and I order it to be so, and my will is reason enough. I know very well that the word 'alone' is not in the Latin or the Greek”

These are the words of a Protestant Leader who claims to be MORE lerned at translating Scripture than that the most learned Catholic. Do you honestly believe that the majority of Protestant Fathers is going to believe in the Perpetual Virginity just because they were taught by the Catholic Church??

The quotes above show an almost maniacal arrogance about the translation of Scripture.
Gee - no wonder why there are literally tens of thoiusands of perpetually-splintering Protestant sects and Lone Rangers out there - ALL claiming to have the "Correct" interpretations and that they were ALL led to this confusion by the Holy Spirit.

What a confused mess . . .

 

[GeneZ]

Rev. 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and ALL LIARS, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Learn this.
We all have lied at times.

"A liar" in that context is someone who lives a lifestyle of lying.