Fatalism

[aspen]

Christians should not trust the Church

Christians should not trust their political leaders

The world is going to end

The church is corrupt

Human nature is completely depraved

All human thought outside the Church is from Satan

All thought inside the Church is corrupt

Only the Bible is truth

Do not trust another Christians interpretation of the Bible - only trust your own because it is from the Holy Spirit

Church Tradition is corrupt

The Church Jesus started on Earth disappeared and was replaced by a completely foreign and worldly substitute

We must continue to replace our denomination with a new denomination that is a real representative of the Early Church until it is corrupted by us and needs to be replaced an hour later.

All Christian symbolism is corrupt except the symbolism we embrace.

All liturgy is human worldly tradition.

All attempts to think about scripture that takes us away from a literal interpretation is evil

All people who disagree with our own interpretation of scripture are liberal agents of the devil sent to attack true believers.

The government is plotting to destroy Christianity and oppress Christians

All dissenting voices must be silenced

Christians have always been hated by the world and always will be

The United States used to be Christian, but is now antichristian.

Liberal theologians are destroying the church and eroding scripture

American citizens used to be moral, but are now godless hedonists

It is our job to point out the signs of the end of the world at all times, even though it is inevitable

It is our job to makes sure that nonchristians follow God's sovereign laws, even though they are going to Hell anyway for their nonbelief

It is our job to witness to all people, all the time, even though God created 000.1% of people for Heaven and every other person for Hell.

The end justify the means

The end is always destruction for the vast majority and salvation at the hands of an angry God for the select minuscule.

Poor people are lazy

Nonchristians are immoral

Scientists are stupid and enjoy lying for the purpose of deceiving people.

Love is weakness

These are all examples of fatalism that I have run into time and time again within Christianity - remember people - the Christian message is GOOD NEWS, not fatalism! Jesus came to usher in the Kingdom God into our hearts, not the darkness of despair!

 

[Trekson]

Hi Aspen, This isn't "fatalism", it's "pessimism". Fatalism says, I will die at my appointed time and nothing I can do will stop it.

 

[Jess]

Some truth in this, some false. I see a lot of opinion based 'fact' in here. Regardless of that, people will think what they think...and the Truth will only be accessible through Scripture and the Spirit.

 

[Strat]

I saw a tee shirt once that said "Hell is other People"

 

[IanLC]

The Church and the world needs prayer! MUCH PRAYER!

 

[aspen]

The Church is the Body of Christ - The Kingdom of God is in our hearts and through Him we will triumph over death. There is absolutely no reason to dwell on human failure and sin - nothing will come between a Christian and victory in Christ. I am starting to equate people who bemoan all the problems in the World and the government and the secularization of American culture with Lot's wife - she turned to mourn her world and turned into a pillar of salt.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

aspen2 .... I am guilty of fatalism sometimes .... mostly just a temporary mindset .... kind of a frustration I suppose .... probably because I know the Gospel is nothing but good news ... yet so much friction amongst us sometimes ....

And it really bothers me that the secular world is so against it .... but then again I was the same in my pre-christian days.

I can understand the spiritual barriers between the unsaved world and Christianity ... but it troubles me how much Christians disagree .... I give it a lot of thought at times .... my best guess is that each of us think we alone have it right (doctrine) . This is an unhealthy pride (not good) ....

I think there is also an insecurity prevalent among Christians and we are terrified to admit it.

We all hope our denominations and doctrines are correct ..... and we are terrified we might be wrong .... so we fight tooth and nail as a smoke screen for our insecurity..

 

[aspen]

aspen2 .... I am guilty of fatalism sometimes .... mostly just a temporary mindset .... kind of a frustration I suppose .... probably because I know the Gospel is nothing but good news ... yet so much friction amongst us sometimes ....

And it really bothers me that the secular world is so against it .... but then again I was the same in my pre-christian days.

I can understand the spiritual barriers between the unsaved world and Christianity ... but it troubles me how much Christians disagree .... I give it a lot of thought at times .... my best guess is that each of us think we alone have it right (doctrine) . This is an unhealthy pride (not good) ....

I think there is also an insecurity prevalent among Christians and we are terrified to admit it.

We all hope our denominations and doctrines are correct ..... and we are terrified we might be wrong .... so we fight tooth and nail as a smoke screen for our insecurity..

Wow Arnie! I know exactly how you feel! I am guilty of the same fear, at times. Thankfully, Christ is teaching us how to love through it - His ultimate act of love on the Cross destroyed the power of death. We can encourage each other to practice Christ's sanctification in our everyday lives; always focused on Him.

 

[Strat]

The modern church could do away with some of the anxiety christians who fill its churches feel by doing away with its many guilt trips and teach people to take responsability for what God actually holds them responsable for.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi aspen,

The Church is the Body of Christ - The Kingdom of God is in our hearts and through Him we will triumph over death. There is absolutely no reason to dwell on human failure and sin - nothing will come between a Christian and victory in Christ. I am starting to equate people who bemoan all the problems in the World and the government and the secularization of American culture with Lot's wife - she turned to mourn her world and turned into a pillar of salt.

Thanks for sharing this.


Hi Arnie and all,

I once had a revelation which set me free from a great deal of fear, and, from comparing myself with others. As always with a revelation the focus is on God: what God has said, what God has done, what God can do. This kind of flash of insight only comes when one is not expecting it.... I was walking down a path on a small hill through the latest trees in an area in England which has been forested for centuries - Sherwood Forest. As I came to a bend a small carved announcement had been posted in view of comers in both directions. It said (something like) 'The people of ____ purchased this piece of ancient forest to be kept in perpetuity for the enjoyment of local inhabitants'. Suddenly, I 'saw' that God knew every individual who had ever walked down the path that I was treading - for at least a thousand years - and therefore He knew their parents, their parents, their parents .... and understood each nuance of culture and personality which had borne in upon each individual's thinking, and, how each individual had responded to the influences upon him; because sometimes we accept and sometimes we reject what we are commanded, and sometimes influences get under our radar which we are unaware are shaping us. And so... I saw that in sending Jesus Christ, the most perfect normal Man who ever lived, all God's desires and great sacrifice, were to make it possible for us to be conformed to His image; thereby to be freed from all the unhelpful influences and our responses to our circumstances (people as well as events) by that process. This gave me a context for understanding why God is willing to wrestle so hard with us for our hearts and our co-operation in this process.

At least for me, I see that when God is trying to have His way in a cultural setting, there will be common factors of thought and education which have affected everyone. When God moves in that generation, there will be agreement as to what pleases Him more than they were doing before. I think this is one of the reasons that the denominations present themselves as quite rigid, forgetting that the composition of their missionfield is ever-changing. The challenge though, is to keep the focus on bring conformed to the Son of God, and resist worldly influences. When God is trying to have His way with me on an issue I haven't quite put my finger on yet, I am more receptive than I used to be, to being changed by His ministry. It no longer terrifies me that I might 'lose my identity', because somehow God has made it that the more we fellowship with Him on His terms, the more we know that He enjoys and values the hidden man of the heart which makes us each unique. That's a paradox, I think!

Sorry aspen! Not a lot about fatalism there. Some of your OP is true and will come to pass, but we are to know the Lord in all that befalls us.

 

[Foreigner]

The Church is the Body of Christ - The Kingdom of God is in our hearts and through Him we will triumph over death. There is absolutely no reason to dwell on human failure and sin - nothing will come between a Christian and victory in Christ.

-- Not according to Matt 24:
"At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other."

I am starting to equate people who bemoan all the problems in the World and the government and the secularization of American culture with Lot's wife - she turned to mourn her world and turned into a pillar of salt.

-- That is an unsupported assumption about Lot's wife.
The Bible doesn't give a reason any reason at all as to why she turned back.
But she was warned earlier not to even look back. She chose disobedience.
Lot's wife's decision and the result had nothing in common with "problems in the world and the gov't," etc. etc. etc.

I can understand the spiritual barriers between the unsaved world and Christianity ... but it troubles me how much Christians disagree .... I give it a lot of thought at times .... my best guess is that each of us think we alone have it right (doctrine) . This is an unhealthy pride (not good) ....

I think there is also an insecurity prevalent among Christians and we are terrified to admit it.

We all hope our denominations and doctrines are correct ..... and we are terrified we might be wrong .... so we fight tooth and nail as a smoke screen for our insecurity..

-- Excellent insight. It gave me pause.

I can understand what you mean in "hope our denominations and doctrines are correct."
I spent many years in a denomination that caused me to have that concern.
That denomination taught flat out that they were the one true denomination.
What was worse is that I was condemned and criticized from within that denomination if I questioned or did not blindly believe in things it taught.

I have left and found a new church. One where I feel free. It encourages you to push into God.
Ask questions, give your opinion, seek the truth. It was willing to be held up to the light.
For the first time I saw actual miracles performed, lives changed, new beginnings for the lost, and a concernted effort to draw people - not to the denomination - but to God.

Our pastor has stressed that salvation is individual, not collective. You will stand before God and be judged by what YOU have done. Not your church.
He has said that there are some people sitting in the pews of that church today who are likely going to hell, but there are people sitting in the pews of the Catholic church two blocks away who will be going to heaven.
The emphasis is on your personal relationship with Jesus, not the church you go to.

Yet on this board I have been lumpd in with "all other Protestants" and told that since I am not willing to fully embrace sources outside the Bible for guidance and instruction, I am wholeheartedly embracing "sola scriptura."

For the first time in my life I feel I understand the freedom and the responsibility of being a child of God. I feel secure in His expectations and am constantly challenged an encouraged through prayer and through His Word.

Yet I am criticized here because I won't embrace books that were rejected from the Bible or writings from people who feel they have an insight into God that goes beyond the Bible.

Arnie, you speak elloquently about the "insecurity" a Christian can feel, but for the first time I have a security in Christ I have never known before.
Conversely, I have never been attacked more for being unwilling to embrace teaching of other denominations that go beyond Scripture or fully Scripture-supported writings.

I have no problem at all with people wishing to study and embrace other materials beyond the Bible. But if those materials contradict the word or expand beyond what the actual Word says, I feel they are looking for trouble.

That opinion has brought on much criticism from other Christians, which I always find fascinating.
I have had one Christian here try to tell me that the "Gnostic Gospel of Thomas" should be considered a viable additional to a Christian's scriptural growth library.

This although that 'gospel' says that as a child Jesus killed two children, struck adults blind, and contains multiple quotes from Jesus not found in any of the other Gospels.

I see those whose denomination has several beliefs based on things that are simply not supported by Scripture, or that require a "unique" re-interpretation of scripture, are the ones pushing the hardest. It is hard sometimes to determine whether that push is out of arrogance or insecurity.



As far as the "secularization of American culture" that Aspen speaks of, I am curious as to why concern about that is a bad thing.
The concern is not so much for existing Christians. If secularization leads to discrimination or oppression, Jesus promised that would happen and that Christian will be rewarded for having to ensure that.

The concern is more for those who are not saved, and the fact that as secularism and the barriers to practicing your faith grow, it becomes harder and harder to share God's message.

Our responsibility is to ensure we can assist as many people as possible into realizing who Christ is, accepting Him, and finding salvation through Him.
If that means that we have to stand up and defend our rights as Christians to worship and share the Gospel, that is the LEAST we should be doing.

One has to wonder why another Christian would have an issue with that...




.

 

[Axehead]

-- Not according to Matt 24:
"At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other."




-- That is an unsupported assumption about Lot's wife.
The Bible doesn't give a reason any reason at all as to why she turned back.
But she was warned earlier not to even look back. She chose disobedience.
Lot's wife's decision and the result had nothing in common with "problems in the world and the gov't," etc. etc. etc.





-- Excellent insight. It gave me pause.

I can understand what you mean in "hope our denominations and doctrines are correct."
I spent many years in a denomination that caused me to have that concern.
That denomination taught flat out that they were the one true denomination.
What was worse is that I was condemned and criticized from within that denomination if I questioned or did not blindly believe in things it taught.

I have left and found a new church. One where I feel free. It encourages you to push into God.
Ask questions, give your opinion, seek the truth. It was willing to be held up to the light.
For the first time I saw actual miracles performed, lives changed, new beginnings for the lost, and a concernted effort to draw people - not to the denomination - but to God.

Our pastor has stressed that salvation is individual, not collective. You will stand before God and be judged by what YOU have done. Not your church.
He has said that there are some people sitting in the pews of that church today who are likely going to hell, but there are people sitting in the pews of the Catholic church two blocks away who will be going to heaven.
The emphasis is on your personal relationship with Jesus, not the church you go to.

Yet on this board I have been lumpd in with "all other Protestants" and told that since I am not willing to fully embrace sources outside the Bible for guidance and instruction, I am wholeheartedly embracing "sola scriptura."

For the first time in my life I feel I understand the freedom and the responsibility of being a child of God. I feel secure in His expectations and am constantly challenged an encouraged through prayer and through His Word.

Yet I am criticized here because I won't embrace books that were rejected from the Bible or writings from people who feel they have an insight into God that goes beyond the Bible.

Arnie, you speak elloquently about the "insecurity" a Christian can feel, but for the first time I have a security in Christ I have never known before.
Conversely, I have never been attacked more for being unwilling to embrace teaching of other denominations that go beyond Scripture or fully Scripture-supported writings.

I have no problem at all with people wishing to study and embrace other materials beyond the Bible. But if those materials contradict the word or expand beyond what the actual Word says, I feel they are looking for trouble.

That opinion has brought on much criticism from other Christians, which I always find fascinating.
I have had one Christian here try to tell me that the "Gnostic Gospel of Thomas" should be considered a viable additional to a Christian's scriptural growth library.

This although that 'gospel' says that as a child Jesus killed two children, struck adults blind, and contains multiple quotes from Jesus not found in any of the other Gospels.

I see those whose denomination has several beliefs based on things that are simply not supported by Scripture, or that require a "unique" re-interpretation of scripture, are the ones pushing the hardest. It is hard sometimes to determine whether that push is out of arrogance or insecurity.



As far as the "secularization of American culture" that Aspen speaks of, I am curious as to why concern about that is a bad thing.
The concern is not so much for existing Christians. If secularization leads to discrimination or oppression, Jesus promised that would happen and that Christian will be rewarded for having to ensure that.

The concern is more for those who are not saved, and the fact that as secularism and the barriers to practicing your faith grow, it becomes harder and harder to share God's message.

Our responsibility is to ensure we can assist as many people as possible into realizing who Christ is, accepting Him, and finding salvation through Him.
If that means that we have to stand up and defend our rights as Christians to worship and share the Gospel, that is the LEAST we should be doing.

One has to wonder why another Christian would have an issue with that...

That was one excellent post, Foreigner!

Axehead

 

[Foreigner]

Thanks, Axehead. I appreciate that.

I must have hit a chord with it, because Aspen, who has posted on several threads over the last couple of days,
has chosen to completely ignore this thread that he started with such vim and vigor.






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