Hello Pegg,
It seems that the problem lies in how one interprets biblical scripture. If I am not mistaken, I think most Protestants rely on the King James Version or the New King James Version because that is the English translation that accurately reflects the Hebrew and Greek. However, I am not Protestant. Because I am Catholic, I rely on the Douay-Rheims because that Bible was translated from the Latin Vulgate, which was the oldest Bible translated from the Greek and Hebrew. At any rate, both the King James Version and the New King James Version gives Jesus the title of "God."
Romans 9:5 of whom are the fathers and from whom according to the flesh Christ came who is over all the eternally blessed God. Amen.
(Taken from the New Kings Version)
Romans 9:5 Whose [are] the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ [came], who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
(Taken from the King James Version)
Both verses give Jesus the title of God. It is not saying that Christ is over all in relation to Isreals 'Fathers' from the past. It is saying that Christ is overall "God blessed for ever" or Christ is "overall the eternally blessed God." Also, Christ has never been called a "father" in any of the New Testament. He has always been called a "Son." Christ is described as a second Adam because like the first Adam, He is a Son. Adam was a son of God because Adam never had a human mother and father. He was the first created by God. In the same way, Christ was also the first of His kind because He did not have a human father.
its not so much a matter of 'interpretation' but its more a matter of 'translation'
There are numerous translations that show a different story. Notice their use of a full stop thus separating the two distinct subjects being spoken about.
The Riverside New Testament, Boston and New York. 1934
“and from whom by physical descent the Christ came. God who is over all be blessed through the ages! Amen.”
Revised Standard Version, New York.1952
“and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. God who is over all be blessed for ever. Amen.”
Today’s English Version, American Bible Society, New York 1966
“and Christ, as a human being, belongs to their race. May God, who rules over all, be praised for ever! Amen.”
The New American Bible, New York and London 1970
“and from them came the Messiah (I speak of his human origins). Blessed forever be God who is over all! Amen.”
New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures, Brooklyn 1950
“and from whom Christ sprang according to the flesh: God who is over all be blest forever. Amen.”
below is a scholars explanation of why the above translations are accurate in translating
ho on as the beginning of an independent sentence referring to God and not Jesus.
In the original greek, the sentence is as follows:
kai ex hon ho khri‧stos′ to ka‧ta′ sar′ka, ] [ ho on e‧pi′ pan′ton, The‧os′ eu‧lo‧ge‧tos′ eis tous ai‧o′nas; a‧men′
out of whom The Christ according to flesh ] [ the one over all, God blessed into the ages Amen
>>>>>>>>>>JESUS>>>>>>>>>] [<<<<<<<<<GOD<<<<<<<<<<
The Authorship of the Fourth Gospel and Other Critical Essays, by Ezra Abbot, Boston, 1888, pp. 332-438. On pp. 345, 346 and 432 he says: “But here ho on is separated from ho khri‧stos′ by to ka‧ta′ sar′ka, which in reading must be followed by a pause,—a pause which is lengthened by the special emphasis given to the ka‧ta′ sar′ka by the to; and the sentence which precedes is complete in itself grammatically, and requires nothing further logically; for it was only as to the flesh that Christ was from the Jews.
On the other hand, as we have seen (p. 334), the enumeration of blessings which immediately precedes...naturally suggests an ascription of praise and thanksgiving to God as the Being who rules over all; while a doxology (a praise to God) is also suggested by the A‧men′ at the end of the sentence.
Basically it means that the end of the sentence is ascribing praise to God, not Jesus because the earlier part of the verse was completed by the use of the pause. By leaving out the fullstops, the subjects are merged into one which is why some translations appear to read as if Jesus is the God being blessed.
There is only one God. The angels and any spirit person in Heaven are not God nor are they close to even being like God. Lucifer got himself kicked out of Heaven because of his pride....he wanted to be like God. Adam and Eve also committed the same sin of pride when they ate the fruit. The serpent was able to convince Eve that eating the fruit would make them like God (Genesis 3:4-5). An angel or a man who claims to be equal to God is committing the sin of pride. Jesus is the only one who can make this claim because He is God and the Truth. God speaks of Himself in the plural sense because this is interpreted to mean that He is three persons in one.
I agree that there is only one true God whom we should worship. However, the term 'God' is a term which implies something powerful or mighty....it is only a descriptive word just as Lord is descriptive of ones position so god is descriptive of ones position or power.
In fact, the hebrews had a word for someone who was 'godlike'...that word is
me‧’elo‧him′ and is often translated as 'angels' or 'messengers'
In Psalm 8:5 the word is used prophetically with regard to Jesus becoming human:
5 You also proceeded to make him a little less than godlike (me'elo.him) ones..."
And Paul said something similar about jesus taking on a lower position and used the word 'angels' at Hebrews 2:7
You made him a little lower than angels; with glory and honor you crowned him, and appointed him over the works of your hands
The term 'god' is also applied to the Isrealites at Psalm 82:6
“I myself have said, ‘YOU are gods,
And all of YOU are sons of the Most High
At 2 Cor 4:4 Satan is called the
'god of this system'
So its not significant that we see Jesus being called a god...in fact it is to be expected because as a powerful spirit he IS existing in Gods form....God is a spirit and so all spirit persons can be said to be in Gods form.
Paul also said that when they are resurrected to heaven, they will be given the same resurection as Christ received at Romans 6:15
"For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we shall certainly also be [united with him in the likeness] of his resurrection "
Im sure you dont believe that being resurrected in Jesus likeness will make these ones Jesus. That is kind of what you are saying about God and Jesus....because Jesus existed in Gods form he must be God. Yet here we see that even some from among mankind will be given the likeness of Jesus when they are resurrected.
The Bible does say that Christ is the Creator.
John 1:1-3, 14 In the beginning was the Word: The Word was with God and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things came to be, not one thing had its being but through Him........The Word was made flesh, He lived among us, and we saw His glory, the glory that is His as the only Son of the Father full of grace and truth.
So, going back to Genesis when God said, "Let US make man in OUR image" the "us" and "our" is referring to the Father and Christ (the Son) whom St. John says was with the Father since the beginning. It also includes the Holy Spirit because the Bible reveals that the Holy Spirit is also God the Creator (Job 33:4). Angels did not create the Heavens and the earth. They also did not create man. We are in the image of God, not in the image of angels.
In Christ,
Selene
I agree that Jesus was the word and existed in heaven and was a co creator with God. However, his power to create came from God, not himself so it cannot be said that Jesus acted alone in the creation of the universe.
Proverbs 8:22-31 gives us a deeper understanding of Jesus role with his Father in heaven.
22 “Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23 From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth....27 When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep, 28 when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong, 29 when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth, 30 then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, 31 being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men."
This verse is rightly attributed to Jesus in his earliest existence with God. We know that Jesus was the firstborn of all creation so this verse could only be applying to him. But notice how he ascribes the creation, not to himself, but to God. This shows that while it may be true that Jesus had a hand in the creation of the universe, he recognized that God was the author. He is called 'the master worker' because he worked along with his Father much like an apprentice works along with a skilled tradesman. The apprentice does do a lot of the work, but it is at the direction of the tradesman. This was the same with Jesus and his Father...he worked along under his fathers guidance and this is why he called the productive land his fathers land in vs 31.
Actually, Pegg, it is "will-be-ing-was, the tetragrammaton YHWH. Keep up the good effort, I'm enjoying your handling of the word.
fivesense
hey,
do you mean the meaning of the tetragrammaton is 'will being was' ?