Hi Pegg,
Actually, Jesus did claim to be God, which is the reason why the Jews wanted to kill Him. He not only called Himself the "Son of God" but also made Himself equal to God.
John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
Hi Selene,
I think there is a big difference in calling oneself a 'son' of God and calling oneself God. In John 5:18 it was the jews who considered it blasphemy to call oneself a 'son' of God because they understood that he was saying that he was not a human but rather a godlike being such as an angel is a godlike being. They refused to believe that he had a prehuman existence whereas we know that he did exist with God in heaven before he became a man. And if you look at his reply in Vs 19 he tries to show them that he is not equal to God for he said "19 Therefore, in answer, Jesus went on to say to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative..." He was telling them quite plainly that his authority was not the authority of God....he could not do anything on his own, in other words, he was subject to God therefore could not have been equal to God.
They misunderstood what he was saying just as it is still being misunderstood today.
In the Bible, St. Paul also called Jesus "God." He also said that Christ made Himself equal to God.
Romans 9:5 of whom are the fathers and from whom according to the flesh Christ came who is over all the eternally blessed God. Amen.
I think there is an issue with Romans 9:5. If you compare some other translations you'll see that they do not say that Christ is 'the eternally blessed God' They put it slightly differently as the following show:
Darby Version: [sup]5[/sup]whose [are] the fathers; and of whom, as according to flesh, [is] the Christ, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
KJV: [sup]5[/sup]Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
NASB: [sup]5[/sup]whose are the fathers, and [sup][/sup]from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God [sup][/sup]blessed forever. Amen.
Contemporary English version: [sup]5[/sup]They have those famous ancestors, who were also the ancestors of Jesus Christ. I pray that God, who rules over all, will be praised forever! Amen.
Youngs Literal Translation: [sup]5[/sup]whose [are] the fathers, and of whom [is] the Christ, according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed to the ages. Amen.
As you can see in all the above translations, none of them infer that Jesus is 'the eternally blessed God'...they all say that Christ is over all in relation to Isreals 'Fathers' from the past....and they all end by blessing God. It cannot be clearly stated from your version that Paul was saying Jesus is the blessed God. He very well could have simply been blessing God for the fact that Jesus has become the father of the nation.
Philippians 2:5-6 For let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: who being in the form of God did not consider it robbery to be equal with God
St. Paul goes on to describe how Christ, whom he believe was in the form of God and equal to God, humbled himself by taking the likeness of man. In this verse, St. Paul described what we call the "Incarnation."
This is another verse that has been rendered questionably in the KJV and the Duay versions. Other translators have not rendered it the same way as the following show:
The New Testament, by G. R. Noyes 1869: “who, being in the form of God, did not regard it as a thing to be grasped at to be on an equality with God.”
Das Neue Testament, revised edition, by Friedrich Pfäfflin 1965: “He—truly of divine nature!—never self-confidently made himself equal to God.”
La Bibbia Concordata. 1968: “who, although being in the form of God, did not consider being equal to God a thing to greedily make his own.”
Today’s English Version 1976: “He always had the nature of God, but he did not think that by force he should try to become equal with God.”
New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures 1984: “who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.”
The New Jerusalem Bible 1985: “Who, being in the form of God, did not count equality with God something to be grasped.”
The context of the passage also makes these renderings more reasonable. Paul was telling the Philippian christians to be humble
“In humility, let each esteem others better than themselves.” and he uses Christ as an example of humility
“Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus.” If Paul was really saying that Jesus was equal to God, then that is not in harmony with the context of esteeming others as better then oneself and if he was trying to teach the Phillipians that they were not equal to God, why use someone he consider to be equal to God as the example that they should follow?
It doesnt make sense for Paul to do that.
My sister, in your quote above, you just admitted that Jesus is mighty God. Is this not against your beliefs as a Jehovah Witness? I thought that Jehovah Witnesses do not believe that Jesus is God in any way or form?
We dont believe that he is the God of the hebrew scriptures who is known by the tetragrammaton. The God who is known as the Creator of heaven and earth is YHWY and YHWY is not Jesus.
But we certainly do view Jesus as a Mighty God who existed in the heavens along with many other spirit persons. In Genesis it reads that God the Creator said "Let US make man in OUR image" so its obvious that God did not exist alone in the heavens. He created many spirit persons including his 'only begotten son' and this is why we can view Jesus as a god in the sense of his existing in Gods form...a spirit.
We also view Jesus as our eternal father because he takes the place of our original earthly father Adam, he is also the Prince of Peace because it is through him that Jehovah will bring peace to the human family. We view Jesus also as the King of the Kingdom of heaven because Jehovah has placed him in that position.
If the prophet Isaiah wanted to say that the Son would give us everlasting life, Isaiah would call Him "Everlasting Life" rather than "Everlasting Father." The title "Everlasting Father" is given only to God our Father. Even Adam does not have this title. The names "Mighty God" and "Everlasting Father" was given to Jesus because that is who He is.
If you have a close look at Lukes geneaology, he traces the ancestry of Jesus back to Adam who is said to be the 'son of God' Luke 3:38 [son] of E′nosh, [son] of Seth, [son] of Adam, [son] of God "
Through Adam, we are all children of God, however, Adam lost that fatherhood when he sinned. Thereafter he could no longer be called a 'son of God' which is what Paul showed at Romans 5:12: “Through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned.” Because of Adams willful sin, he lost the fatherhood of his Creator.
We needed a new earthly father to replace Adam if we were ever to be reconciled to God as his children. This is the role that Jehovah bestowed upon his son Jesus. He provided us a new 'father' as it were....one who could bring us back to being children of God. Paul writes at Romans 5:15, 18 “...So, then, as through one trespass the result to men of all sorts was condemnation, likewise also through one act of justification the result to men of all sorts is a declaring of them righteous for life.”
Philippians 2:10 That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth:
If Jesus is not God, then why should everything in Heaven, on earth, and under the earth bow to Jesus' name? Everything in Heaven, on earth, and under the earth will bow to Jesus because He is God. This is not something that can be logically explain because God is not about human logic and God can defy human logic. God bless you, my sister.
In Christ,
Selene
I agree with you that the position of Jesus is the highest....but that is only for a limited time according to Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:24
Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet. 26 As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing. 27 For [God] “subjected all things under his feet.”
Notice how Paul says that, yes all things have been subjected to Jesus, but he also says that at the end Jesus
"hands over the kingdom to his God and Father" And he makes the point that while all things were made subject to Jesus, it was with the exception of one thing which was NOT made subject to him....that one thing is God himself. Vs 27 says:
"For [God] “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him" So God himself was never made subject to Jesus, but all other things were made subject to him.
If Jesus is God the Father, how could it be said that he hands back the kingdom to himself? It doesnt make sense for Paul to say that.
The truth of the matter is that Jesus has a very significant role to play in Gods purposes, but once that role is complete, he will then subject himself once again to his Creator and Father and the result will be that mankind will finally be fully reconcilled to God and become children of God in the fullest sense. Jesus for now serves as a mediator between God and man, but the purpose of his mediation between us is to eventually bring us completely back into harmony with God. Paul explains this further in Vs 28 of 1 Corinthians 15
"And when all things have been subjected unto him (Jesus), then shall the Son also himself be subjected to him (God) that did subject all things unto him, that God may be all in all."
other translations read this verse as:
Darby: [sup]28[/sup]But when all things shall have been brought into subjection to him, then the Son also himself shall be placed in subjection to him who put all things in subjection to him, that God may be all in all.
KJV: [sup]28[/sup]And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
According to Paul, Jesus role is to bring us back to God the Creator...the Almighty. His role in this regard is evidence that he is not the Creator of heaven and earth, he is not the God of the Old Testament but he is the one prophesied in the OT to bring mankind back to God...the Messiah.
