Ok, Robert, you have outright denied Grace through faith, making it void.
You have chosen to stand before the throne of God with your own merits in justification.
So be it!
First Work of Faith: Confessing Jesus Christ
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Ok, Robert, you have outright denied Grace through faith, making it void.
You have chosen to stand before the throne of God with your own merits in justification.
So be it!
Whatever. I don't mind writing on whited walls, because it's good practice in rightly dividing the word of truth.
Faith without works is dead, and works without faith is vain.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
PART 1 of my response
AGREE
Genesis 1:1-3
Genesis 1:1 - Declaration to the recipient = "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."
Void/Analysis= Now the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep.
Spirit Movement = And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.
Genesis 1:3 - WORD = And God said,
John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God
John 1:3 - Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.
AGREE, just as you said = "WORD spoken are first works of Creation"
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Part 2
You said: "and words confessed on the Lord Jesus"
Genesis 1:2 = VOID = Now the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep.
Ephesians 2:1 = VOID = And you were dead in your trespasses and sins / For you were once darkness
Genesis 1:2 = SPIRIT Movement = And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.
John 3:7 = SPIRIT Movement = Do not be amazed that I said, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes. You hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
GOD/WORD spoke and all things were created.
John 5:25 = "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead(VOID) will hear the voice of the Son of God;
and those who hear will live."
SPIRIT Movement = "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;"
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Part 3
You said: "the first works of sons of God to be saved by Him"
In Part 1 and Part 2 of my reply we witnessed that no work of man was present or intiated by man in order to be saved.
Here in Part 3 we shall see that the work of Salvation belongs to God and God alone.
John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”
Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
OK - You may at this point say: "See David, this is what i am talking about..........."
However, we SEE from Scripture that is was GOD from the Beginning of Creation doing the WORK
Now, we SEE that it is JESUS and the SPIRIT doing the WORK of Salvation for us, since no man could do it.
JESUS went about preaching the Gospel = Spoken WORD
The FATHER and the SPIRIT equally goes about doing the WORK that we could never work = HEARING GOD Speak
So when JESUS says "this is the work of God, that you believe = those who hear are only responding to the Call of God that was the FREE Gift of Grace to HEAR and the FAITH to Believe in what we HEARD = JESUS is the Savior who died for our sins = come to HIM and be Saved.
Therefore the Scripture says: Ephesians 2:4-10
But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
not of works, lest anyone should boast.
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
When we confess from our heart out our mouth = It is the WORK of GOD in us.
"
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
Did you ever wonder then, why Jesus said that sir? I tend to agree with him sir, that is always the first step, ever hear of a Christian who became a Christian before they ever even heard of Jesus?
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Works-salvationists seem to believe "faith without works is dead" means faith is dead UNTIL it produces works and then it becomes a living faith. That would be like saying that a tree is dead UNTIL it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree. Something that is dead cannot produce anything. It takes a living faith to produce works (Ephesians 2:5-10) just as it takes a living tree to produce fruit.
James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith, but they lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14) Simple! So salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)
To believe otherwise (because of human pride) is to miss salvation.
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Sure it is. Faith is as much a work as anything is a work. "ing" words are work words. Although we don't say faithing, we say believing and acting in faith. You cannot separate faith from work. As the Gospel says, faith is only real and alive when associated with work.
There are 2 senses of works. The common meaning and the Biblical meaning of a means to achieve salvation on ones own merit.
The well meaning people who proclaim such nonsense as "faith isn't a work" are attempting to build a wall around the means of salvation. No one is saying that by our works we are saved. So, there is that.
That is exactly what it is, totally missing salvation. All because they can't see that salvation takes place instantly, the very moment you believe.
It's sad, but nothing can be done, they absolutely refuse to see it.
God's words are work of God. But close enough. Words are work.
And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
God says spoken words are work.
I was actually hoping you would continue in the honest spirit of your first post and offer a good challenge to the 2nd argument, that our spoken words are also our work. Instead, you've fallen from the argument by teaching what may be true, but has nothing to do with the argument at hand.
Words are work of God, when He speaks them, and words are work of man, when we speak them.
The words of Satan are also his work:
Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders.
The only work of Satan is his lying words.
You agreed with part 1. You defaulted from Part 2 and said nothing about how men also work by speaking words, whether for good or evil.
This is not a refute that words we confess with our mouth are our work. It simply acknowledges the truth, that no man can say Jesus is Lord but by the Spirit of God working within us.
And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Your point is only half-true, in implying that we do no work ourselves, when confessing with our mouth and speaking the words Lord Jesus.
Which we must do from the heart to be saved.
You must disprove one of two things, to say we do no work to be saved, but are only saved by faith alone without any or our work:
1. We can be saved before confessing the Lord Jesus unto salvation, which is open heresy against plain words of God.
2. God's spoken words are His work, but a man's spoken words are not his work.
To do this you must show my 2 main arguments for it, are not sound from Scripture: Heresies are false teachings spoken by false teachers, and are called works of the flesh. We are judged by our works, which includes our words that we are judged by.
Words spoken are work, whether of God, of angels, and of men.
To be saved, we must do the good and righteous work of speaking the words Lord Jesus, which requires us to do the spiritual work of resisting the lie of the devil, that Jesus is not Lord.
The word sown in our heart by hearing the word, is the work of God.
Our work do no work, until we resist the devil and do the word, which begins with confessing the Lord Jesus.
It's no work for us to hear the Word, unless we must strain to hear it, because we are too far from the speaker.
Dead faith alone is only alive to them, that trust in their own faith alone.
That imaginary life only lasts as long as their imagination in this life.
Afterward, the bubble is thoroughly popped.
Faith alone is a bubble of empty air, that gives not so much as a sigh, when popped beyond repair.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord.
Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.
It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.’ ”
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
No, now if we're going to say it, let's get it right!
Grace through faith in Jesus Christ produces works. They are not our works, "but prepared for us."
If those works are not accomplished through His preparing, then those works will not pass the "test of fire."
I must say, that's quite a trick of logic. I haven't thought of it that way before, but we can't argue with the fact that God speaking words is His work. But He is Spirit, and we are flesh and blood. To say us peaking words is also work may be a stretch, since our words do not create or make anything like Christ does. I understand your logic, and can't argue against it, but I think the matter of God's work being done by speaking the words, does not immediately translate into our spoken words are our work.
But I do of course know we cannot be saved before confessing Jesus Christ with our mouths. And that must be done from the heart believing in righteousness. Also, on the matter of being justified by works, there is no doubt. I am certainly not following some faith alone savior.
It's just this being saved by our work of faith still sort of sticks in my craw. However, I also acknowledge that may be just adherence to standard Christian tradition. Especially when on this site, to even suggest it is a worse heresy than calling Jesus cursed.
Two things prove faith alone is no enough to save any man:
1. We cannot be justified by faith only, but by works of faith. And, we cannot be saved without being justified by Christ.
2. We cannot be saved before confessing the Lord Jesus, which is the first work of spoken faith of God.
1. We cannot be justified by faith only, but by works of faith. And, we cannot be saved without being justified by Christ.
2. We cannot be saved before confessing the Lord Jesus, which is the first work of spoken faith of God.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
No matter how you try to slice and dice and split hairs it always comes Right back to God being FIRST and LAST.
being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ
looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many.
To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
Watching “Christians” debate the Bible, especially salvation issues, must be entertaining to the Devil.
The favorite tactic of faith aloners, is to lie about faith with works, and being justified by works of faith.
They falsely accuse James of saying that we are to have faith in and trust in our works to save and justify us. That is the great lie often repeated.
Being justified by our works through faith, is not trusting in our works to save us. It is simply doing the word by faith, as we are commanded, and we only do so, because we believe God from the heart unto righteousness.
We don't do works to be justified, but we do works because we believe God's word, and so we are justified by Christ in doing them.
Being justified by works simply means, that our works are justified by Christ, because we are only doing His word and will and righteousness, because we believe Him and His word of righteousness.
And so, what James is really saying is, we are justified only by works that please God through faith.
We are neither justified by faith alone without works, which is impossible, since that is dead. Nor are we justified by any works of our own, that are not because of believing Jesus and His word. That is what Paul the Jew rebuked, when he became a Christian and apostles of Christ.
I am quite sure there were just as many OSAS Christians offended and alienated by James, when he rebuked them for trusting in their own faith alone, and says no faith alone can save any man, nor can any man be justified by Christ through faith alone, but only by the works He commands us to do. And I am doubly sure that includes those OSAS Christians that went around celebrating grace and saying bless you only.
Being justified by works, is only for them that do those things, only because they believe what God says from the heart, and so do it.
Those with their own faith alone, are also those that witness of themselves, that they don't believe all of what God says, and so don't do it. And the main thing they don't believe God in, is that we are to go and sin no more, and do righteousness at all times, and can add virtue and godliness to our faith to ensure our salvation by not falling.
Since we are certainly unsaved by doing evil works of the devil, then we are certainly justified by doing good works of God.
They falsely accuse James of saying that we are to have faith in and trust in our works to save and justify us. That is the great lie often repeated.
Being justified by our works through faith, is not trusting in our works to save us. It is simply doing the word by faith, as we are commanded, and we only do so, because we believe God from the heart unto righteousness.
We don't do works to be justified, but we do works because we believe God's word, and so we are justified by Christ in doing them.
Being justified by works simply means, that our works are justified by Christ, because we are only doing His word and will and righteousness, because we believe Him and His word of righteousness.
And so, what James is really saying is, we are justified only by works that please God through faith.
We are neither justified by faith alone without works, which is impossible, since that is dead. Nor are we justified by any works of our own, that are not because of believing Jesus and His word. That is what Paul the Jew rebuked, when he became a Christian and apostles of Christ.
I am quite sure there were just as many OSAS Christians offended and alienated by James, when he rebuked them for trusting in their own faith alone, and says no faith alone can save any man, nor can any man be justified by Christ through faith alone, but only by the works He commands us to do. And I am doubly sure that includes those OSAS Christians that went around celebrating grace and saying bless you only.
Being justified by works, is only for them that do those things, only because they believe what God says from the heart, and so do it.
Those with their own faith alone, are also those that witness of themselves, that they don't believe all of what God says, and so don't do it. And the main thing they don't believe God in, is that we are to go and sin no more, and do righteousness at all times, and can add virtue and godliness to our faith to ensure our salvation by not falling.
Since we are certainly unsaved by doing evil works of the devil, then we are certainly justified by doing good works of God.
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