For all who believe salvation cannot be a secure, present possession...

[musterion]

[SIZE=12pt]THIS IS JUST SOME OF WHAT BELIEVERS HAVE IN CHRIST JESUS[/SIZE]​

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[SIZE=12pt]We HAVE BEEN justified and so we HAVE peace with God (Romans 5:1)[/SIZE]​

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[SIZE=12pt]We HAVE died to the divine condemning Law (Romans 7:4), rendering divine condemnation impossible (Romans 8:1) lest God be a corrupt judge Whose word is worthless[/SIZE]​

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[SIZE=12pt]We ARE new creations (2 Corinthians 5:17)[/SIZE]​

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[SIZE=12pt]We HAVE BEEN blessed with every spiritual blessing (Ephesians 1:3)[/SIZE]​

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[SIZE=12pt]We HAVE BEEN redeemed by His blood (Ephesians 1:7)[/SIZE]​

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[SIZE=12pt]We HAVE the forgiveness of sins (Ephesians 1:7)[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=14pt]Four easy questions:[/SIZE]​

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[SIZE=14pt]1. Given the above, what can your church offer believers like me that we do not already possess? What do we still lack, but must have when we stand before God, that only your church can provide?[/SIZE]​

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[SIZE=14pt]2. Speaking the truth before Almighty God - who sees your heart and mind like an open book - do YOU have all His blessings listed above?[/SIZE]​

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[SIZE=14pt]3. If your answer to #2 is "no," why do you not have them?[/SIZE]​

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[SIZE=14pt]4. Would you like them? They're quite free, and freeing![/SIZE]​

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[This Vale Of Tears]

[SIZE=12pt]THIS IS JUST SOME OF WHAT BELIEVERS HAVE IN CHRIST JESUS[/SIZE]​

​

[SIZE=12pt]We HAVE BEEN justified and so we HAVE peace with God (Romans 5:1)[/SIZE]​

​

[SIZE=12pt]We HAVE died to the divine condemning Law (Romans 7:4), rendering divine condemnation impossible (Romans 8:1) lest God be a corrupt judge Whose word is worthless[/SIZE]​

​

[SIZE=12pt]We ARE new creations (2 Corinthians 5:17)[/SIZE]​

​

[SIZE=12pt]We HAVE BEEN blessed with every spiritual blessing (Ephesians 1:3)[/SIZE]​

​

[SIZE=12pt]We HAVE BEEN redeemed by His blood (Ephesians 1:7)[/SIZE]​

​

[SIZE=12pt]We HAVE the forgiveness of sins (Ephesians 1:7)[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=14pt]Four easy questions:[/SIZE]​

​

[SIZE=14pt]1. Given the above, what can your church offer believers like me that we do not already possess? What do we still lack, but must have when we stand before God, that only your church can provide?[/SIZE]​

​

[SIZE=14pt]2. Speaking the truth before Almighty God - who sees your heart and mind like an open book - do YOU have all His blessings listed above?[/SIZE]​

​

[SIZE=14pt]3. If your answer to #2 is "no," why do you not have them?[/SIZE]​

​

[SIZE=14pt]4. Would you like them? They're quite free, and freeing![/SIZE]​

1. The Catholic Church offers authority, the same authority Jesus invested in his apostles. It's the main reason that Protestants become Catholic because they realize that there is no authority in Protestant denominations, just various opinions on what the Bible means. People who come home to the Catholic Church are seeking to be under the authority of the one holy catholic and apostolic church established by Jesus Christ himself.

2. Yes

3. based on 2's answer, irrelevant

4. based on 2's answer, irrelevant.

Now I'm confused. Was this your attempt at defending your belief in OSAS or is there a disconnect between the title of this thread and the content of the OP?

 

[williemac]

1. The Catholic Church offers authority, the same authority Jesus invested in his apostles. It's the main reason that Protestants become Catholic because they realize that there is no authority in Protestant denominations, just various opinions on what the Bible means. People who come home to the Catholic Church are seeking to be under the authority of the one holy catholic and apostolic church established by Jesus Christ himself.

The Catholic church offers authority according to the Catholic Church. In the many encounters I have had with the J.W.'s, I have heard the same claim. They say that the Watchtower society has Holy Spirit and has the truth. Then they go about proving it based on the parameters set up by the Watchtower society. In either case, this doesn't work. Anyone can prove just about anything if they are allowed to control the rules by which they are proving it. It would be the same as if I came along and claimed to be a prophet, and to prove it I commence with ..."thus says the Lord". That doesn't prove anything. As well, the Catholic church cannot prove any exclusive authority.

But I can say without any hesitation that I have been filled with the Holy Spirit and I have everlasting life because of the new birth within me. And this came about, not because of the authority of any organization but rather as a fulfillment of the promise from God concerning the gospel. There was/is no intention anywhere in scripture to set up an organization as God's representative authority on the earth. Jesus said that all authority has been given Him, and sorry to burst anyone's bubble, but anyone who has the Son has His authority.

When any group or religion or denomination is making the claim to spiritual exclusivity over the rest of the world, the red flags should come out in spades and fly. The real church is not an organization but rather a body of believers, who incidentally reside in a myriad of religions and organizations, not the least of which is the Catholic church. Those who invalidate either a Catholic or a protestant on the basis of being a Catholic or a protestant, merely reveal their own lack of understanding of spiritual things.

In fact, if you care to review the two men praying in Luke 18:10-14, you will find that God invalidates men on a completely different platform than the organization they belong to. Those who exalt themselves will be humbled according to Jesus in that passage. There is a lot of talk of warnings on this website. This passage would definitely qualify as a warning.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

The Catholic church offers authority according to the Catholic Church. In the many encounters I have had with the J.W.'s, I have heard the same claim. They say that the Watchtower society has Holy Spirit and has the truth. Then they go about proving it based on the parameters set up by the Watchtower society. In either case, this doesn't work. Anyone can prove just about anything if they are allowed to control the rules by which they are proving it. It would be the same as if I came along and claimed to be a prophet, and to prove it I commence with ..."thus says the Lord". That doesn't prove anything. As well, the Catholic church cannot prove any exclusive authority.

But I can say without any hesitation that I have been filled with the Holy Spirit and I have everlasting life because of the new birth within me. And this came about, not because of the authority of any organization but rather as a fulfillment of the promise from God concerning the gospel. There was/is no intention anywhere in scripture to set up an organization as God's representative authority on the earth. Jesus said that all authority has been given Him, and sorry to burst anyone's bubble, but anyone who has the Son has His authority.

When any group or religion or denomination is making the claim to spiritual exclusivity over the rest of the world, the red flags should come out in spades and fly.

And yet when the world looks to the official voice of Christianity, they look to the Vatican and the Pope. Christ's church has always been a visible church, a shining city on a hill. That city is the Catholic Church. You're impression that the Catholic Church doesn't have authority is, after all, just your opinion. The world looks at the Catholic Church as the authority for Christianity. Always has.

 

[Angelina]

And yet when the world looks to the official voice of Christianity, they look to the Vatican and the Pope. Christ's church has always been a visible church, a shining city on a hill. That city is the Catholic Church. You're impression that the Catholic Church doesn't have authority is, after all, just your opinion. The world looks at the Catholic Church as the authority for Christianity. Always has.

The world is also in a fallen state and tends to categorize all christian denominations under one banner. Just like the Queen of England who once had authority over many countries under the British Empire. She still remains as a physical presence as does the pope...

The only reason we "Christians" are even able to fellowship together on this forum is because of "Christ" and his redeeming work via the cross. The free gift of salvation and the promised Holy Spirit given to those who believe in him by faith...everything else seems irrelevant...

 

[musterion]

The only reason we "Christians" are even able to fellowship together on this forum is because of "Christ" and his redeeming work via the cross. The free gift of salvation and promised of the Holy Spirit, given to those who believe in him by faith..,everything else is irrelevant...

The unavoidable issue you are not acknowledging in your post is the gospel.

Yes, Christ died on the cross for the sins of all mankind and rose again for the justification of those who believe. Anyone within Christendom who argues against or denies that cannot be a believer, according to the Bible, but is very much lost. But even that isn't the real issue here.

The problem is, what precisely is a person supposed to do with Christ? It is THE important question because there is ZERO room for error.

Answer: It depends on who you ask. Merely believe? Believe what, exatly? Believe in Christ? So do devils. Do works have a place in being or staying saved? If so, before faith, after, or both? Again, it depends on who you ask.

Just to pull two obvious examples: The Roman Catholic Church and independent fundamentalist Baptists (neither group I belong to) both don't merely "preach faith in Christ" which would allow them to hold hands, sing kumbaya, share a Coke and honor each other's water baptisms as valid before God.

The controversy is what each says both the lost AND the saved (or the being-saved) must actually DO to be saved. From that perspective, the RCC and IFBs have two utterly contradictory and irreconcilable "good newses" about Christ. Simple logic dictates that one of them is wrong, or both are, but they cannot both be right and so one or both of them is sending its devout believers to the Lake of Fire. There is simply no way around this issue but choosing to ignore or deny it (as most occupants of Christendom do) does not glorify God.

Now...extend that contradiction to every Christian sect and denomination in existence, including the sects and splinters under the umbrella of Catholicism. You quickly see that, yes, Christendom is rife with confusion that is NOT from God, but it also demands that MOST professing Christians - no matter how sincerely they believe whatever they believe about God and Christ - MUST be wrong and damned* right where they stand because they fundamentally contradict what everyone else is saying.

EVERYONE CANNOT BE CORRECT WHEN EVERYONE CONTRADICTS EVERYONE ELSE.

So, no disrespect intended to the mod hat you're wearing, but are you sure you don't want to rephrase your claim that everything else is irrelevant? Because "everything else" is very much the point and the problem.

* That is, unless one is some type of universalist, in which case it won't make the slightest difference in the end and so isn't even worth discussing.

 

[Angelina]

The unavoidable issue you are not acknowledging in your post is the gospel.

The message of the cross - is the gospel of salvation...this is what I am speaking of here

 

[musterion]

The message of the cross - is the gospel of salvation...this is what I am speaking of here

Every organization within all of Christendom has contradictory gospels. That is why they exist separately from each other - because they believe THEY ALONE have the truth which everyone else doesn't.

Do you believe every gospel within Chistendom is valid and will save if it simply mentions Christ and the cross, even if it contradicts all the other gospels found in Christendom which also mention Christ and the cross?

Those who invalidate either a Catholic or a protestant on the basis of being a Catholic or a protestant, merely reveal their own lack of understanding of spiritual things.

If two professing Christians meet and soon discover each believes a gospel that not only contradicts but excludes the gospel the other person believes, can both still be saved in this confusion by continuing to believe their respective gospels?

The stakes in this conversation could not be higher. That's why I take this so seriously.

 

[Angelina]

Your usage of the word "gospel" has a different meaning to me. The gospel is the message of the cross which leads to salvation. Then there are various doctrines and beliefs held by different denominations/ Churches...

These doctrines and beliefs, stem from theological view-points which have been agreed upon and accepted as truth or based on the understanding of the early Church Fathers.

 

[musterion]

Okay. Try this.

The Catholic church officially stated at the council of Trent (still in force) that anyone who says faith alone in Christ is enough to save a sinner is anathema because the devout must remain in the faith their whole lives via the sacraments of the church, if they want to be saved. In short, Rome's official position says faith alone in Christ IS NOT enough to save anyone.

Most protestants believe faith alone in Christ is enough to save a sinner, and so no rituals, rites or works are necessary to one's salvation. In short, most protestants say faith alone in Christ IS enough to save anyone.

Those are two contradictory "messages of the cross." Each group says theirs is the correct one. Someone is wrong.

Which one is correct?

 

[Angelina]

The Catholic church officially stated at the council of Trent (still in force) that anyone who says faith alone in Christ is enough to save a sinner is anathema because the devout must remain in the faith their whole lives via the sacraments of the church, if they want to be saved. In short, Rome's official position says faith alone in Christ IS NOT enough to save anyone.

That is their doctrine/belief. They are entitled to their belief however, it does not change my status as been saved by grace through faith before the throne of God. In reality...no-one can make any thing black or white by decreeing it so. Only God has that privilege and he has already spoken. The question then is not in what one says but how one lives as children of the king.

 

[musterion]

You're refusing to address my main point so I'll let it go.

 

[Angelina]

You're refusing to address my main point so I'll let it go

You're main points may get this thread locked...and I am hoping that it will not come to that :huh:

I have entered this discussion because it is borders on breaching forum rules see: denominational posts.
Our main focus at CyB is centered around "Christ" and not denomination.
http://www.christianityboard.com/index.php?app=forums&module=extras&section=boardrules

Please also read our Statement of Faith.
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/17009-statement-of-faith-christian-board-christian-forum/

Bless ya!

 

[musterion]

I have taken no denominational position.

If this site is founded on the principal of denying uncomfortable truths - which I admit, this is one - then it is NOT truly Christian because Christians are COMMANDED to contend for the Faith.

It is a simple fact that both you and I are going to Hell if those with different gospels right here on this board happen to be correct and we are wrong. That is a fact. I'm not even asking you do discuss my point anymore. I'm only asking you to acknowledge that it is true and I'll drop it.

If you cannot do that, I politely request you ban me NOW but leave this post up so people can see how much love you actually have for the truth, which is none.

 

[Angelina]

If this site is founded on the principal of denying uncomfortable truths - which I admit, this is one - then it is NOT truly Christian because Christians are COMMANDED to contend for the Faith. [Jude 1]

Jude 1
20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction; 23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

I see that you have a doctrine on what constitutes true Christianity ;) and also how God determines who goes to hell...

It is a simple fact that both you and I are going to Hell if those with different gospels right here on this board happen to be correct and we are wrong.

If you wish to be banned...please send your request to Hammerstone...however, whether this post stays up or is removed is not in your hands...
Btw, we have no issues about debating doctrinal differences. The line is drawn however, where discussions are in breach of forum rules.http://www.christian...tion=boardrules See; denominational posts.

I have taken no denominational position

I have the gift of discernment... ;)

Bless ya!

 

[Angelina]

This topic is closed