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Featured For now we see through a mirror in a riddle

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by bbyrd009, Apr 26, 2018.

  1. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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  2. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    "The Bible is the acclaimed word of God, and any differing accounts either demise the authenticity of the words as God's, or one must conclude that the differences are intentional and bear a uniquely hidden meaning. Holding to these two divergent opinions that the Bible is both God's written word, as well as the unplanned fallacies of the accounts of men, is to espouse two ideas that are in conflict. Either the Bible is entirely intentional as God's infallible written word, or it is not."

    How impossible would it be for man to write the word (without help) that does two things simultaneously: confound the wise and feed the poor?


    If the contradictions are not purposely intentional, then how are these "mistakes" perfectly constructed?
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2018
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  3. APAK

    APAK Well-Known Member

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    One example In the attachment it says:

    “In Matthew 10 we read of Yahshua's instruction to His twelve disciples before sending them out two by two. He directed them specifically to not take "sandals, or a staff" (vs. 10). But in clear contradiction, in the identical account in Mark, Yahshua told them to take a staff and to wear sandals (Mark 6:8-9). So, which one is correct?”

    There is no discrepancy between the two passages of scripture. In Matt 10:9 the operative word is ‘acquire’ meaning to collect, get, on their journeys. They were not to get shoes or staffs on their journeys. It never says that the shoes they were wearing and staff they had was not permissible to wear or carry.

    In Mark 6:8-9 it reads more clearly to take a staff and continue wearing shoes.

    Reading the context and all the words carefully is the key.

    I would wager I could account for all the so-called discrepancies in this attachment. They are not really riddles.

    APAK
     
  4. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    ya, seems like a misstatement in the pdf, obv Matt 10:10 says "take no extras," not "take none at all."
    so i expected more a contrast between the sending of the 12 and the 70 there, i don't perceive a riddle in the accounts of the 12 either. But i just skimmed briefly. He brings it all together after going into a lengthy account about Jesus first, none of which i have read.

    9“Do not get any gold or silver or copper to take with you
    10no bag for the journey or extra shirt or sandals or a staff
    i assumed "extra" was meant to be applied to all three?
     
  5. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    imo it would be interesting to take them one at a time i guess.
    I've read the whole pdf and found the "riddles" useful, even though i disagree with his conclusion
    Goliath apparently had a son named Goliath also, for instance, but i had to track that down
    etc
     
  6. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    Mark 4
    "And He said to them, “To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, 12 so that

    ‘Seeing they may see and not perceive,
    And hearing they may hear and not understand;
    Lest they should turn,
    And their sins be forgiven them.’”

    ...In the world..."all things come in parables." All things.
     
  7. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    well then one unsettling conclusion to that is that if you cannot resolve the riddles, you are outside, i guess
     
  8. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    Fortunately, there is a Way. :)
     
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  9. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    ok, then
    "What is meant by the contradictions in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John concerning Yahshua casting out the moneychangers?"
     
  10. Helen

    Helen Well-Known Member

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    I too was stuck with this in that article
    < If I were to ask you if the Bible is the written word of God, more than likely you would respond with an emphatic "yes." Most Christians believe that the Scriptures were written by men under the anointing and unction of the Holy Spirit, thus providing to man God's written word. But, when contradictions in His word are presented, most respond that these are simply the differences created from the recollection of men. A common response is that if there was an automobile accident, then different observers would contribute slightly differing accounts on the one and same event. Quite so, but there is one important distinction - we are not here talking about the mere words or accountings of men! The Bible is the acclaimed word of God, and any differing accounts either demise the authenticity of the words as God's, or one must conclude that the differences are intentional and bear a uniquely hidden meaning. Holding to these two divergent opinions that the Bible is both God's written word, as well as the unplanned fallacies of the accounts of men, is to espouse two ideas that are in conflict. Either the Bible is entirely intentional as God's infallible written word, or it is not. For one to truly hold to the trust and belief that the Bible is God's word, then one must conclude that the contradictions hold very special meaning. If the Holy Spirit wrote the gospels, then the contradictions are intentional and meaningful - a meaning that, one, must include repeatable consistency in its representation and interpretation, and two, must be of tremendously great significance since Yahweh, once again, has hidden His truth from the multitudes in order to reveal His "Daniel.">

    Very well said.
    I believe that the very reason the 'contradictions' are there in the bible prove it's Authenticity.....the same way as God allowed the weaknesses of David to hangout...and also Peters.
    Some people (I am thinking of a certain lady on here ..that always brings the argument that " it can only be right or wrong" .."who is right?")

    Many drive themselves nuts by trying to prove themselves right! Or by having to find out what is 'right'.
    In my book God doesn't give a fig about who is right...God is interested in
    " Does it produce and give...LIFE? "

    Now I must go back and read the posts on here. Maybe I am posting a side track. :D
     
  11. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    What contradictions? If there are any, it is only in the telling of it, the making of four parables, but still having one object and one subject that agree one with the others.

    Matthew 21:12
    Then Jesus went into the temple of God and drove out all those who bought and sold in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who sold doves.

    Mark 11:15
    So they came to Jerusalem. Then Jesus went into the temple and began to drive out those who bought and sold in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who sold doves.

    John 2:14
    And He found in the temple those who sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers doing business.

    John 2:15
    When He had made a whip of cords, He drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen, and poured out the changersmoney and overturned the tables.
     
  12. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    The better question would be: What is the parable?

    The subject of the parable was salvation, and the object was the sacrifice. That is what He upended.
     
  13. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    maybe we could save the subject change for later?
    "In Matthew, Yahshua rode into Jerusalem on a donkey and a colt, entered into the temple, and cast out the moneychangers, all in one day (Matthew 21:1-17). In Mark, Yahshua rode into Jerusalem on a colt, entered into the temple and looked around, departed to Bethany to spend the night, returned to Jerusalem the following day, and then cast out the moneychangers (Mark 11:1- 18). In Luke Yahshua, once again in agreement with the Matthew account, rode into Jerusalem on a colt, entered the temple, and cast out the moneychangers (Luke 19:28-46). Finally, in John we find an account entirely different from the other three gospels. After performing His first miracle of turning water into wine, Yahshua next went into the temple and cast out the moneychangers! Ten chapters later, Yahshua rode into Jerusalem on a young donkey, and there is absolutely no mention of a temple cleansing (John 2:1-17 and 12:12-19). So what is the riddle that Yahweh has propounded to us in these divine contradictions?" ibid
     
  14. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    There are no contradictions in parables (riddles), only an object and a subject. The rest is just the telling thereof, not wheat, but chaff.
     
  15. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    no one said there was; the point is that there are lessons in figuring them out
     
  16. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    "Let us look at another account which is a little longer to review. All the events cited here took place immediately following Yahshua's feeding of the 5,000. We will not look at the similarities in these different gospel accounts, but rather note the differences. In Matthew the disciples were sent out onto the sea where Peter walked on water, and was saved by Yahshua. The disciples in the boat then worshipped Yahshua, saying, "You are certainly God's Son" (Matthew 14:13-36).

    In Mark, we find that Yahshua "intended to pass by them" and not get into the boat; and instead of worshipping Him, to the contrary "their heart was hardened" (Mark 6:30-56). Thus once again the Mark account has an entirely, shockingly different meaning! And if these differences are not already striking enough, look at the Luke account. The disciples were never sent out onto the sea (in fact the word "sea" never appears in Luke), but instead they went to join Yahshua where He was alone! (This is an amazing contradiction, having substantial meaning!)

    There He taught them the cost of following Him and promised that some of those standing there "would not taste death" until they saw the "kingdom of God" (Luke 9:12-27). In John, Yahshua withdrew to the mountain, perceiving that the multitudes were intending to "take Him by force" and make Him king. Yahshua entered the boat with the disciples and "immediately the boat was at the land to which they were going" (John 6:1-21).

    So once again, what is the riddle Yahweh is presenting us in these striking contradictions? What is the meaning of the contradictions in the accounts of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John regarding the boat journey (or the absence thereof) following the feeding of the 5,000?" ibid
     
  17. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    To me, this is just an opinion: that the contradictions in the Word of God clearly demonstrate God is more interested in feeding, teaching, and guiding His people to the knowledge of Him, than pleasing mans tendentiously to pick apart the Word of God for some glaring error. It is in the details that He speaks rather than prove Himself authentic. He already knows He is authentic and doesn't need to explain Himself. The "would have passed by them" seemed odd to me also.

    Mark 6:48-52
    [48] And he saw them toiling in rowing; for the wind was contrary unto them: and about the fourth watch of the night he cometh unto them, walking upon the sea, and would have passed by them. [49] But when they saw him walking upon the sea, they supposed it had been a spirit, and cried out: [50] For they all saw him, and were troubled. And immediately he talked with them, and saith unto them, Be of good cheer: it is I; be not afraid. [51] And he went up unto them into the ship; and the wind ceased: and they were sore amazed in themselves beyond measure, and wondered. [52] For they considered not the miracle of the loaves: for their heart was hardened.

    They were "toiling" and the "the wind was contrary"; they were striving or working against the wind. "would have passed by them". Was the Lord just out taking a stroll on the sea? Did He lose sight of the disciples and forgot where they were; when He had seen Nathanael under the fig tree? No, it has to be important.

    Numbers 20:18-21 And Edom said unto him, Thou shalt not pass by me, lest I come out against thee with the sword. And the children of Israel said unto him, We will go by the high way: and if I and my cattle drink of thy water, then I will pay for it: I will only, without doing any thing else, go though on my feet. And he said, Thou shalt not go through. And Edom came out against him with much people, and with a strong hand. Thus Edom refused to give Israel passage through his border:

    Which gives insight to (John 8:56-59), no the Lord didn't become "invisible" but was rather unseen. There is a difference.

    John 8:56-59
    [56] Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it , and was glad. [57] Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? [58] Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. [59] Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

    As the Lord walked He laid down a highway; a path: and passed by and many met Him by the highway. Many came out to attempt to stop Him from going through, as Edom. The Lord gives Israel(the Spiritual) passage through. The Lord walked on the sea demonstrating (the deep) under His feet and would have passed by them as they "toiled" "their hearts hardened", but He didn't. I haven't looked at all the other gospels of this passage but I'm sure they give even deeper meaning. A contradiction is an invitation to ask God questions. Like any other relationship: two communicate and share and discuss. As Moses asked so should we, and God responds because that is what relationship is. It is not second-hand but going to the Author and Creator directly.

    I think it was ScottA that has already said something about the tables being overthrown in the temple. If I understood Him correctly, I agree it was a demonstration of mans table's (filled with filth and greed and lust) being "overturned" and replaced by the Lord's Table when immediately following "Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."
     
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  18. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    good stuff :)

    i'm curious if you, either of you, have any opinion/summary of
    "What is the meaning of the contradictions in the accounts of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John regarding the boat journey (or the absence thereof) following the feeding of the 5,000?"
    the Q at hand iow, so to speak?
     
  19. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    First, I would not call the differences between the different accounts, "contradictions", but simply differences.

    What Jesus did, He did. The different ways in which it was told do not automatically indicate error or contradiction. In fact it is entirely possible that just as those with Paul on the road to Damascus did not hear or see what Paul did, that the matter was not revealed to all. And of course, Luke may not have even been there.

    The differences that come from the four gospels, may be as simple as looking at the information from four different perspectives. If four people each standing on a different corner of an intersection witnessed an auto accident, they would give four different accounts...to which there would be no riddle.

    Therefore, rather than looking at these different accounts as a riddle, it should be looked at as the parable that all things are. What then, is the [object] and the [subject]?

    The object is Jesus walking on the water. The subject is the spiritual nature of Jesus passing by or through. Some saw it, some not. Some were wanting to join Him, while others were offended. Kinda sounds like Christians different reception of a spiritual Jesus today - nothing has changed. And there's your parable.
     
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  20. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    doesn't seem completely resolved, but could be i s'pose.

    "
    The following does not qualify as a contradiction, as much as consistent and notable and, yes, even meaningful differences between these first three gospels; but we will note this as a riddle anyway. In Matthew and Mark we read the account of Peter and Andrew's response to Yahshua when He spoke to them - "Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men." In both books their response is recorded in the identical phrase - "And they immediately left the nets, and followed Him." Likewise, shortly after this at the same beckoning of Yahshua, James and John similarly in both of these books "left the boat and their father" (Matthew 4:20 & 22, Mark 1:18 & 20). But in decidedly different wording from Matthew and Mark, we read in Luke that these four disciples "left everything and followed Him" (Luke 5:11).

    Now this might not be so striking were this pattern not equally repeated. For we find once again in these three gospels the identical pattern, this time in Matthew's response (the tax gatherer, not the book) to Yahshua's invitation to "Follow Me." As in the former case, Matthew and Mark once again provide precisely identical wording for Matthew's response to Yahshua's invitation - "And he rose (from his tax office) and followed Him" (Matthew 9:9, Mark 2:14). And once again in like pattern we find in Luke this more exacting message of leaving everything. In Luke 5:28 we read that Matthew "left everything" to follow Yahshua. While this may seem to be a small difference, in light of the consistent message, as well as the foreshadowed plan of Yahweh in the days ahead, prophetically this is most meaningful! So, let us see another riddle that Yahweh has propounded in His word.

    Why in the gospel of Luke do we find the disciples leaving "everything," while in Matthew and Mark they leave their nets, their boat, and their father?" ibid
     
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