For Those Who Deny Jesus Christ IS Almighty God

[Dropship]

..This Trinity thing for the most part is beyond human reasoning and understanding, it's another realm. I certainly don't claim to completely understand it!

God and Jesus are like the two separate halves of an oyster sharing the same guts- the holy spirit, but the 'Trinity' thing is just something cooked up by the catholic church to try to lump them all together..

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Personally, I believe there is just what John said, three persons that make up the Godhead.

I don't believe when Isaiah spoke of the Messiah being called the "Everlasting Father" that he was referring to Him as God the Father.

My opinion is that Christ became the Son of God at a point in time, with "Son" referring to His humanity. By His work on the Cross in redeeming man, He had to undo what Adam had done, becoming the Second Adam.

He brought man back into relationship with the Father. In terms of humanity, I think Isaiah was referring to Christ as the "Everlasting Father" in that capacity. Being a Man, and considering what He did for man, He is the "Father" of humanity. If not for what Christ did for man, the alternative was total annihilation of man.

I also believe that I could be wrong! This Trinity thing for the most part is beyond human reasoning and understanding, it's another realm. I certainly don't claim to completely understand it!

It is clear from the Bible, that there is One God, or as Romans 1:20 says, "Godhead", which means, "Divine Nature". It is also clear, that there are Three distinct "Persons", Who are called, "Yahweh", in the Old Testament, and "Theos" in the New Testament. This does not make three Gods, but, Three Persons Who are equally God. No human can ever understand this Great Mystery. The best human way to understand this Mystery of God, is what we call the Trinity, which is a theological term, to try to understand the God of the Bible. This defines as, Tri=Three, which is "Personal", and Nity=Unity, which is "Essential". or, as someone said, not 1+1+1, which is 3, but 1x1x1, which is 1.

 

[Charlie24]

God and Jesus are like the two separate halves of an oyster sharing the same guts- the holy spirit, but the 'Trinity' thing is just something cooked up by the catholic church to try to lump them all together..

I didn't originate this but coming from a lifetime of construction I can relate to it.

God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, in construction terms.

The Father is the owner, the Son is the architect, the Holy Spirit is the contractor.

Together they build in perfect harmony.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

God and Jesus are like the two separate halves of an oyster sharing the same guts- the holy spirit, but the 'Trinity' thing is just something cooked up by the catholic church to try to lump them all together..

This "Catholic" thing about the Trinity, is completly false! Much before there was a Roman Catholic church, the early Church theologian, Tertullian, (AD 160–225), wrote against the heretic, Praxeus, in which he uses the term, trinitas, where he argues from Scripture that there is One God, in Three distinct Persons. Interesting, that Tertullian, who knew both Greek and Latin, actually quotes from 1 John 5:7

"Ita connexus Patris in Filio et Filii in Paracleto, tres efficit coharentes, alterum ex altere, qui tres unum sunt, non unus, quomodo dictum est, Ego et Pater unum sumus." (Against Praxeas XXV).
"Thus the connection of the Father in the Son, and of the Son in the Paraclete, produces three coherent persons, one from the other, which three are one, not one [person], as it is said, "I and my Father are One.""
From John 10:30 Tertullian shows the essential unity of the Father and Jesus Christ; and from 1 John 5:7, the essential unity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Cyprian, who was a friend of Tertullian, also quotes from 1 John 5:7. Evidence that these words were part of both the Greek and Latin First Letter of John, in the 2nd century!

 

[heartwashed]

Jesus often prayed to God, but if he WAS God, why would he pray to himself?

Because He was in the flesh and needed the power of the Holy Spirit.

and John 1:1, and 1:18 say that there are TWO Who are equally GOD!

Of course, there is only one God (James 2:19). While I would agree with you that there are two distinct Persons being spoken of here.

Personally, I believe there is just what John said, three persons that make up the Godhead.

I don't believe when Isaiah spoke of the Messiah being called the "Everlasting Father" that he was referring to Him as God the Father.

My opinion is that Christ became the Son of God at a point in time, with "Son" referring to His humanity. By His work on the Cross in redeeming man, He had to undo what Adam had done, becoming the Second Adam.

He brought man back into relationship with the Father. In terms of humanity, I think Isaiah was referring to Christ as the "Everlasting Father" in that capacity. Being a Man, and considering what He did for man, He is the "Father" of humanity. If not for what Christ did for man, the alternative was total annihilation of man.

I also believe that I could be wrong! This Trinity thing for the most part is beyond human reasoning and understanding, it's another realm. I certainly don't claim to completely understand it!

Consider Malachi 2:10.

Mal 2:10, Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

In referring to Christ as the everlasting Father, He is saying that Christ is the Father.

That is, that the same Spirit (John 4:23-24) who inhabiteth eternity (Isaiah 57:15) descended into time in order to take on an added nature of human flesh; so that He could die for us.

Jesus, being God, is the same Spirit (John 4:24, Ephesians 4:4) as the Father.

Being distinct from the Father in that the Father is a Spirit inhabiting eternity without flesh; while the Son is that same Spirit dwelling in flesh (hypostatic union) and who is also subject to time.

I don't believe that it was 1/3 of God who descended; and neither do I believe that it was a 2nd God.

 

[heartwashed]

It helps us in our understanding to know that Jesus was begotten in the incarnation (Luke 1:35).

 

[Charlie24]

Consider Malachi 2:10.

Mal 2:10, Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

In referring to Christ as the everlasting Father, He is saying that Christ is the Father.

That is, that the same Spirit (John 4:23-24) who inhabiteth eternity (Isaiah 57:15) descended into time in order to take on an added nature of human flesh; so that He could die for us.

Jesus, being God, is the same Spirit (John 4:24, Ephesians 4:4) as the Father.

Being distinct from the Father in that the Father is a Spirit inhabiting eternity without flesh; while the Son is that same Spirit dwelling in flesh (hypostatic union) and who is also subject to time.

I don't believe that it was 1/3 of God who descended; and neither do I believe that it was a 2nd God.

Well, I have to disagree.

Malachi is speaking to Israel who have been treacherous toward God in sinning. He is speaking of the nation of Israel being created with a purpose in this world, not that God created every one of us individually.

His point is that Israel has broken Covenant with God, they need to deal with their sin.

The problem with Israel is that they believed by simply being born a Jew meant salvation.

 

[heartwashed]

Well, I have to disagree.

Malachi is speaking to Israel who have been treacherous toward God in sinning. He is speaking of the nation of Israel being created with a purpose in this world, not that God created every one of us individually.

His point is that Israel has broken Covenant with God, they need to deal with their sin.

The problem with Israel is that they believed by simply being born a Jew meant salvation.

The point of the verse is that we all have one Father.

That is the clear meaning of what is being spoken in Malachi 2:10.

 

[Charlie24]

The point of the verse is that we all have one Father.

That is the clear meaning of what is being spoken in Malachi 2:10.

I disagree again.

Only Israel is being addressed here. The "one father" is referring to Abraham the father of Israel.

With Israel being created through Abraham by God.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Of course, there is only one God (James 2:19). While I would agree with you that there are two distinct Persons being spoken of here.

there are TWO Who are called GOD

John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God"

Even in the New Testament by Dr Noyes, who was a Unitarian, he has, "and the Word was God", not "god" or "a god". The New Testament : Noyes, George R. (George Rapall), 1798-1868 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

John 1:18, "No one has seen God at any time. The Unique God, who is in the bosom of the Father, has declared Him"

Again, Noyes reads here, "God; the only begotten God", The New Testament : Noyes, George R. (George Rapall), 1798-1868 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

 

[heartwashed]

there are TWO Who are called GOD

John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God"

Even in the New Testament by Dr Noyes, who was a Unitarian, he has, "and the Word was God", not "god" or "a god". The New Testament : Noyes, George R. (George Rapall), 1798-1868 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

John 1:18, "No one has seen God at any time. The Unique God, who is in the bosom of the Father, has declared Him"

Again, Noyes reads here, "God; the only begotten God", The New Testament : Noyes, George R. (George Rapall), 1798-1868 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Yes, two distinct Persons being spoken of here.

While it should be clear that there is one God (James 2:19).

 

[heartwashed]

I disagree again.

Only Israel is being addressed here. The "one father" is referring to Abraham the father of Israel.

With Israel being created through Abraham by God.

I suppose that we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[Episkopos]

For Those Who Deny Jesus Christ IS Almighty God

There are some, like the Unitarians and Jehovah’s Witnesses, who argue, that the Bible does not teach, that Jesus Christ is “Almighty God”. The English adjective “almighty”, has the meaning of “all-powerful, unrestricted power”. It is interesting that, the Jehovah’s Witnesses in their New World Translation (NWT), have rendered the Hebrew, “êl Gibbôr”, which is one of the Titles for Jesus Christ, in Isaiah 9:6, as “Mighty God” (2003 edition). This is also the reading in the next chapter, the same Hebrew is used for Jehovah, and is also “Mighty God” (10:21). In John 1:1 they argue that the correct way to translate the Greek, “kai theos ēn ho logos”, is, “and the Word was a god”, and, that there is no Scripture where Jesus Christ is called “God”. Now, there is a clear contradiction here, as it is very clear in their own NWT, in Isaiah 9:6, that Jesus Christ is not only “God”, but, “Mighty God”. Some Jehovah’s Witnesses that I have spoken with, admit that Jesus Christ is “Mighty God”, but add, that He is not “Almighty God”. This means that they accept that there are two distinct Persons, Who are “God”, One “Almighty”, and the other, “Mighty”. This makes them guilty of Polytheism.

In John chapter 5, we read of a conversation between Jesus Christ and the Jews. In verse 17 Jesus says to them, after they question why He is working on the Sabbath Day, “But He answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working”. Jesus’ answer actually enraged the Jews, and they “were seeking all the more to kill Him” (verse 18). Why would this be? John explains, “because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God”. The Jews clearly understood what Jesus was saying here, He claimed that their God, was “His OWN (Greek, idiom) Father”, Who is “Personally His own”. Language that made Jesus Christ, “ison tōi theōI”, where the Greek “ison” means “equality in strength and rights”, which is “essentially equal with the Father”. Some argue that these words of the Jews are a misunderstanding of what Jesus was saying, and meant. If this were the case, Jesus does not in any way try to correct them, and rebuke them for “making Himself equal with God” the Father. Instead, a few verse later, Jesus makes a very strong self-Testimony on His own Deity and Equality with the Father. In verse 23 Jesus says:

“that all should Honour the Son just as they Honour the Father. He who does not Honour the Son does not Honour the Father who sent Him”

“Honour” is the Greek “timáō”, “honour, reverence, esteem, value, prize”. Also, “to exalt, glorify”. In Isaiah 42:8, it says, “I am Yahweh, that is My Name; I will not give My Glory to another or My Praise to idols”. The Hebrew word here “kâbôd” translated as “Glory”, is also used for, “honour, reverence, glory”.

It is very clear from what Jesus says in verse 23, if He is not given the SAME (kathōs, just as, even as, according as) “Honour” as the Father; then the Father Himself is not “Hourned”. These words would be the highest blasphemy, if, as some suppose, Jesus Christ is not Almighty God, and is no more than a created being! In fact, this verse alone is one of the strongest in the Bible, on the absolute Deity of Jesus Christ, by Himself, and His coequality with God the Father. There is not a single created being, who can ever say, “Honour me as you do Almighty God”, who would not be guilty of being deranged! If the Father is “Almighty”, then it is clear from Jesus’ own words here, that He is also Almighty God, as He says that He is to receive the same, “honour, reverence, esteem, value, prize”, as the Father. Only Someone Who is COEQUAL and COESSENTIAL with God, can ever use this language for Themselves.

In the Book of Revelation, chapter 5, we have another powerful Testimony to the absolute Deity of Jesus Christ, and His coequality with God the Father.

"And ALL of the Creation, which is in the heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all things that are in them, heard I saying, to Him Who sits on the throne, and unto the Lamb, be "ALL The Blessing, and ALL The Honour, and ALL The Glory, and ALL The Might, for ever and ever. And the four living creatures said, Amen. And the elders fell down and worshipped." (so emphasized in the Greek)

Here it is very clear, that, “ALL The Blessing, and ALL The Honour, and ALL The Glory, and ALL The Might”, that is for “Him Who Sits on the Throne”, here being God the Father, is EQUALLY for “the Lamb”, Who is Jesus Christ. The Greek conjunction, “kai (and)”, is used to denote “equality and sameness”. Note in this passage, where we read, “to kratos”, which is also translated in the NWT, as “the might”, means, ALL the Might that there is. It can hardly mean, that only “some”, or the “majority” of Mighty belongs to “Him Who Sits on the Throne”, but must mean, “ALL-MIGHTY”. This, and the rest, ALSO is true of Jesus Christ. And, BOTH the Father and Jesus Christ are here WORSHIPPED. This passage is the best description as to what WORSHIP of God really is, “ALL The Blessing, and ALL The Honour, and ALL The Glory, and ALL The Might”. ALL The BLESSINGS in this world, ALL The HONOUR in this world, ALL The GLORY in this world, and ALL The MIGHT in this world, belongs to God the Father, and God the Son.

In Revelation 11:15 we read,

“And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall Reign for ever and ever”

Note the words, “He shall Reign”, is in the Greek, “basileusei”, which is in the singular number, no doubt referring to the Joint Reign of the Father and Jesus Christ (tou kuriou…tou Christou autou), Who are Two distinct Persons. There are some who misuse 1 Corinthians 15:28, to try to “prove”, that Jesus Christ is eternally “subordinate” to the Father. It is clear that this passage speaks of Jesus’ Mediatorial Kingdom, and not the eternal, which we can see from this passage in Revelation, is not one of “subordination”, but “coequality”. This is also clear from Revealtion 22:1, 3, where it says,

“And he showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the Throne of God and of the Lamb…the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him”

Here we have Two distinct Persons, “tou theou kai tou arniou”, literally, “the God and the Lamb”. Then we have, “tou thronou (the Throne)”, where “thronou”, is also in the singular number, as in 11:15. BOTH the Father and Jesus Christ Sit on the One Throne, as JOINT RULERS. In verse 3, we have the words, “His (autou, singular, masculine) servants”, “serve Him (autōi, singular, masculine), which includes BOTH the Father and Jesus Christ, Who are EQUALLY “Served” as Almighty God.

This is the Word of God, this is what the Word of God Teaches about the Lord Jesus Christ, that He is COEQUAL with God the Father, and is Himself ALMIGHTY GOD.

The term "Almighty" is reserved for the Father. Although "mighty God" can be attributed to Jesus Christ. The Father is the Most High God.

Origen (the first Christian theologian) was criticized in later centuries because he saw the GodHead as a hierarchy. So was Eusebius (the first Church historian). As was Tertullian (another influential Christian thinker).

There was centuries of debate on the issue, and it is not resolved to this day.

When we ignore half the Bible in order to form an opinion with the other half we create factions that perpetuate less than the truth.

Can we ignore verses that tell us that Jesus said that the Father is greater than He. Or else that the Head of Jesus is God (the way that Christ is the Head of every man?)

It might be telling to understand that the most ancient believers saw Jesus as a mediator between God and man.

People will err on the extremes, not knowing where the balance is. And then they will argue from those extremes ---- each missing the other's scriptural argument.

We have those who only see one God, and others that see 3 distinct persons within the Godhead. Both of these are extremes that ignore the verses the others argue from, and vice versa. The truth lies in between. 1+1= 2...not 1 nor 3.

There is a hierarchy in heaven. The Most High is.....well, the Most High. That is the Father. The Son is also God, part of the Godhead...but lesser in stature although the same in essence, substance and character. That is the balanced view taken from the WHOLE counsel of God.

 

[heartwashed]

Jesus is only less than the Father in His humanity.

As concerning His Deity, He claimed to be equal with the Father (John 5:18).

 

[Charlie24]

I suppose that we will have to agree to disagree.

In the Old Testament you will find "one God" many times, God even said there is no God but me.

He taught Israel that He is the only true God. When the New Testament comes along we are given more details as to this "one God."

He is a "triune God." Three distinct persons in essence.

The "one God" is used by all in scripture as to identify that there is no other God outside of the three person Godhead.

 

[heartwashed]

In the Old Testament you will find "one God" many times, God even said there is no God but me.

He taught Israel that He is the only true God. When the New Testament comes along we are given more details as to this "one God."

He is a "triune God." Three distinct persons in essence.

The "one God" is used by all in scripture as to identify that there is no other God outside of the three person Godhead.

1Co 8:6, But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Eph 4:6, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Jas 3:9, Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.

It seems to me that scripture refers to the one God as being the Father.

And in saying so I am not denying a belief in the Deity of Christ!

 

[Charlie24]

1Co 8:6, But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Eph 4:6, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Jas 3:9, Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.

It seems to me that scripture refers to the one God as being the Father.

And in saying so I am not denying a belief in the Deity of Christ!

Yes, and Christ is in the Father. "I in the Father, and the Father in me."

This speaks of unity. They are one in unity and essence.

Paul told us that Jesus Christ in the flesh is the exact reproduction of God the Father.

The unity cannot be denied.

 

[heartwashed]

Yes, and Christ is in the Father. "I in the Father, and the Father in me."

This speaks of unity. They are one in unity and essence.

Paul told us that Jesus Christ in the flesh is the exact reproduction of God the Father.

The unity cannot be denied.

Yes, and it is even written,

Col 2:8, Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9, For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

 

[Charlie24]

Yes, and it is even written,

Col 2:8, Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9, For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Man thinks he has the Trinity figured out, but he doesn't.

As I said earlier, it's from another realm beyond the understanding of man. It is clear that three persons are involved and yet they are "one God.' All indication from scripture is that these persons are independent, and not one person who can be any of the three at any given time.

To me it really doesn't matter what it is. It changes nothing in my relationship with Him. I guess just something to argue about for us humans.

 

[heartwashed]

Man thinks he has the Trinity figured out, but he doesn't.

As I said earlier, it's from another realm beyond the understanding of man. It is clear that three persons are involved and yet they are "one God.' All indication from scripture is that these persons are independent, and not one person who can be any of the three at any given time.

To me it really doesn't matter what it is. It changes nothing in my relationship with Him. I guess just something to argue about for us humans.

In Christ dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

How does that relate to your statements that I have underlined above?