For those who think Christ is not God.
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BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Can we confine spiritual, substitutionary atonement within the boundaries of physics? I mean, really? Just askin'.
Lev 16:21 And Aharon shall lay both his hands upon the rosh (head) of the live goat, v'hitvaddah (and confess) over him kol avonot Bnei Yisroel, and all their peysha'im in all their chattot, putting them upon the rosh of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a designated man into the midbar;
Lev 16:21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions, even all their sins; and he shall put them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of an appointed man into the wilderness.
Remember imputation...
And Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat,.... In this order as the Targum of Jonathan says, his right hand upon his left hand on the head of the live goat; this was done in the name of the people, hereby transferring their sins, and the punishment of them, to it:
and confess him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins; which takes in their sins, greater or lesser, sins of ignorance and presumption, known or not known (x), even all sorts of and all of them: the form of confession used in after times was this (y); O Lord, thy people, the house of Israel, have done perversely, have transgressed sinned berate thee, O Lord, expiate now the iniquities, transgressions, and sins, in which thy people, the house of Israel, have done perversely, transgressed, and sinned before thee, as it is written in the law of Moses thy servant (#Le 16:30
and it is added, and the priests and people that stood in the court, when they heard the name Jehovah go out of the mouth of the high priest, they bowed, and worshipped, and fell upon their faces, and said, blessed be God, let the glory of his kingdom be for ever and ever:putting them upon the head of the goat; that is, the iniquities, transgressions, and sins of the people of Israel before confessed, and that by confession of them, with imposition of hands; and which was typical of the imputation of the sins of the people of God to Christ, of the Lord laying, or causing to meet on him the iniquities of them all, and of his being made sin by imputation for them:
and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness; whether the wilderness of Judea, or what other is intended, is not certain. The Targum of Jonathan calls it the wilderness of Zuck; which, according to the Misnah (z), was three miles from Jerusalem, at the entrance of the wilderness; and whereas in another Misnah (a), instead of Bethchadudo, Bethhoron is mentioned, which is said also to be three miles from Jerusalem: it is not an improbable conjecture of Dr. Lightfoot (b), that the goat was sent in the way to Bethhoron, which was the same distance from Jerusalem as the other place was, in the northern coast of Judea, and had very rough hills about it, and a narrow passage to it. The man, by whom he was sent, was one fit for the purpose, that knew the way to the wilderness, and was acquainted with it; a man of years and understanding, and of a disposition suitable for such a service; the Septuagint version renders it one that was "ready"; and the Targums, one that was "prepared" to go, or "appointed", and got ready; Jarchi says, the day before; but the Targum of Jonathan a year ago: perhaps it designs one, that being once appointed, was continued, and so was used to it from time to time, and constantly did it: the phrase properly signifies "a man of time" or "opportunity" (c); Aben Ezra finds fault with those who render it a wise man, but observes, that some of their Rabbins say it was a priest that led the goat to the wilderness, which he approves of; according to the Misnah (d), all were fit for this service (formerly common and unclean), but what the high priest did (afterwards) was fixed, and they did not suffer an Israelite to lead him (i.e. a common Israelite, one that was not a priest); according to the Talmud (e), even a stranger, and an unclean person, was fit for this service. In the mystical sense, by this fit man, or man of opportunity, is not meant, according to Abarbinel, Nebuchadnezzar, who led the children of Israel into the wilderness of the people, into the Babylonish captivity; but rather, if it could be understood of Christ being sent, and carried into the wilderness of the Gentile world, upon his resurrection and ascension to heaven, the Apostle Paul might be thought of; who was a chosen vessel to carry his name there, and was eminently the apostle of the Gentiles: but seeing by Azazel, to whom this goat was let go, Satan seems to be meant; if, as some think (f), Christ was baptized on the day of atonement, and on that day was led by the Spirit to the wilderness of Judea, there to be tempted of the devil, that might be considered as a very singular accomplishment of the type; and the Jews seem to expect the Messiah on the day of atonement (g): or rather, as Witsius (h) observes, the hand of the fit man may denote the power that rose up against Christ, namely, the Gentiles and the people of Israel, and particularly Pilate, who took care that Christ, burdened with the cross, an emblem of the curse, should be led without the gate, where he had his last conflict with the devil; See Gill on Lev_16:10. This is applied to Pilate by Origen (i).
Christ was the sin-bearer for us all Matthew.
Did the goat "became" sin?
No sin ever interpenetrated our Lord and Savior
dear brother..imputation, hasham, sin-bearer..upon Him was "laid" all the iniquities of us all.
Christ was "reckoned" by imputation as hamartia.
Hope this makes sense
J.
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Lev 16:21 And Aharon shall lay both his hands upon the rosh (head) of the live goat, v'hitvaddah (and confess) over him kol avonot Bnei Yisroel, and all their peysha'im in all their chattot, putting them upon the rosh of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a designated man into the midbar;
Lev 16:21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions, even all their sins; and he shall put them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of an appointed man into the wilderness.
Remember imputation...
And Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat,.... In this order as the Targum of Jonathan says, his right hand upon his left hand on the head of the live goat; this was done in the name of the people, hereby transferring their sins, and the punishment of them, to it:
and confess him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins; which takes in their sins, greater or lesser, sins of ignorance and presumption, known or not known (x), even all sorts of and all of them: the form of confession used in after times was this (y); O Lord, thy people, the house of Israel, have done perversely, have transgressed sinned berate thee, O Lord, expiate now the iniquities, transgressions, and sins, in which thy people, the house of Israel, have done perversely, transgressed, and sinned before thee, as it is written in the law of Moses thy servant (#Le 16:30
putting them upon the head of the goat; that is, the iniquities, transgressions, and sins of the people of Israel before confessed, and that by confession of them, with imposition of hands; and which was typical of the imputation of the sins of the people of God to Christ, of the Lord laying, or causing to meet on him the iniquities of them all, and of his being made sin by imputation for them:
and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness; whether the wilderness of Judea, or what other is intended, is not certain. The Targum of Jonathan calls it the wilderness of Zuck; which, according to the Misnah (z), was three miles from Jerusalem, at the entrance of the wilderness; and whereas in another Misnah (a), instead of Bethchadudo, Bethhoron is mentioned, which is said also to be three miles from Jerusalem: it is not an improbable conjecture of Dr. Lightfoot (b), that the goat was sent in the way to Bethhoron, which was the same distance from Jerusalem as the other place was, in the northern coast of Judea, and had very rough hills about it, and a narrow passage to it. The man, by whom he was sent, was one fit for the purpose, that knew the way to the wilderness, and was acquainted with it; a man of years and understanding, and of a disposition suitable for such a service; the Septuagint version renders it one that was "ready"; and the Targums, one that was "prepared" to go, or "appointed", and got ready; Jarchi says, the day before; but the Targum of Jonathan a year ago: perhaps it designs one, that being once appointed, was continued, and so was used to it from time to time, and constantly did it: the phrase properly signifies "a man of time" or "opportunity" (c); Aben Ezra finds fault with those who render it a wise man, but observes, that some of their Rabbins say it was a priest that led the goat to the wilderness, which he approves of; according to the Misnah (d), all were fit for this service (formerly common and unclean), but what the high priest did (afterwards) was fixed, and they did not suffer an Israelite to lead him (i.e. a common Israelite, one that was not a priest); according to the Talmud (e), even a stranger, and an unclean person, was fit for this service. In the mystical sense, by this fit man, or man of opportunity, is not meant, according to Abarbinel, Nebuchadnezzar, who led the children of Israel into the wilderness of the people, into the Babylonish captivity; but rather, if it could be understood of Christ being sent, and carried into the wilderness of the Gentile world, upon his resurrection and ascension to heaven, the Apostle Paul might be thought of; who was a chosen vessel to carry his name there, and was eminently the apostle of the Gentiles: but seeing by Azazel, to whom this goat was let go, Satan seems to be meant; if, as some think (f), Christ was baptized on the day of atonement, and on that day was led by the Spirit to the wilderness of Judea, there to be tempted of the devil, that might be considered as a very singular accomplishment of the type; and the Jews seem to expect the Messiah on the day of atonement (g): or rather, as Witsius (h) observes, the hand of the fit man may denote the power that rose up against Christ, namely, the Gentiles and the people of Israel, and particularly Pilate, who took care that Christ, burdened with the cross, an emblem of the curse, should be led without the gate, where he had his last conflict with the devil; See Gill on Lev_16:10. This is applied to Pilate by Origen (i).
Christ was the sin-bearer for us all Matthew.
Did the goat "became" sin?
No sin ever interpenetrated our Lord and Savior
dear brother..imputation, hasham, sin-bearer..upon Him was "laid" all the iniquities of us all.
Christ was "reckoned" by imputation as hamartia.
Hope this makes sense
J.
Okay, thank you for sharing and explaining. As while thinking about Jesus was the sin sacrifice, just as in the beginning when they offered up to God sacrifices for their sins. Jesus was in the same like-wise matter in his own choice and willingness to become an sin offering on behalf of the all the world. By the choice of the Jewish nation saying - Crucify him, Crucify him, let his blood be on our hands and his blood was covered for all the sins of all the world due to having been sinless.
Because of the imputation it seems that God could not reside where sin was, and for three days, Jesus was in the heart of the earth, and God raised him again on the third day according to scriptures, as the Savior of the World for doing the will of God.
Thank you again, J.
This is an excellent question from Matthew Barn, I also grew up believing Christ became a mass of sin, penetrating our Lord which is not the case.
J.
This is not "gennao", "beget", or "to generate", it is "elattoo", "to diminish", or "decrease". When John the Baptist said, "He must increase, but I must decrease", this was the word used for decrease.
Much love!
He is sinless; Joseph was not His father; Mary really was His mother; He is the Son of God. Protestants have historically said that the Lord Jesus was of Mary's substance, sin apart.
Yes, Jesus' biological Father was God. The begotten part is what the word made flesh is...a sperm cell.
Jesus' biological mother was Mary. The begetting part was her egg cell.
Jesus was begotten by both God AND Mary.
He had 2 biological parents.
God makes biological things that make biological things.
God Himself did not become biological flesh.
You have this as though it shows Jesus being "made", as in, created, or begotten, and the word there is actually "made to be lesser", "diminished".
Much love!
Well, John 1.14 tells us that the Word did indeed become flesh.
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