For those who think Christ is not God.

[Kermos]

@Wrangler @Aunty Jane @DavidB @face2face @Waiting on him

Lord Jesus Christ's says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

Jesus Christ's words in John 8:58 germanely apply to the Word of God in Exodus 3:14-15 because both passages revolve around "who God is"; therefore, context between John 8:58 and Exodus 3:14 establishes.

That "I AM" in John 8:58 is "ego eimi" which also appears in the Septuagint version of Exodus 3:14 (the Septuagint is the Old Testament written in Greek about 200 years before Christ's birth); therefore, just like when Jesus says "My God, My God why have you forsaken Me" (Matthew 27:46) referring hearers to Psalm 22 which includes "They pierced my hands and my feet" (Psalm 22:16), in the same manner Jesus said "I AM" (ego eimi) referring hearers to Exodus 3:14 where God explains God's name to Moses with "I AM the Being" (ego eimi ho on); moreover, God continues explaining God's name in Exodus 3:14-15.

As the scriptural evidence shows, Jesus' words recorded in John 8:58 refer back to God's words in Exodus 3:14 and the continuing passage such as God's instruction for Moses to say to the Israelites "YHWH, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you" (Exodus 3:15) which is also Jesus Christ's message Who is like Moses (Deuteronomy 18:15).

In John 8:58, Jesus declares Himself to be "I AM the Being" (Septuagint), that is, YHWH God (Exodus 3:14), of which the Greek can also be rendered "I AM the One", YHWH God (Exodus 3:14).

The Hebrew version of Exodus 3:14 also contains the equivalent of "I AM" in the Hebrew language with glorious intensity.

In John 8:58, Jesus declares Himself to be "I AM WHO I AM" (Hebrew), YHWH God (Exodus 3:14).

Here is the passsge to which Jesus refers to as Jesus' name based upon His recorded words in John 8:58 (this is translated from Hebrew).

God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'" God, furthermore, said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'YHWH, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations." (Exodus 3:14-15).

See "I AM" and "Abraham" occur in both the John 8:58 and Exodus 3:14-15 passages thus intimately binding the Word of God over the centuries:

• "I AM" (John 8:58)
• "before Abraham was" (John 8:58)
• "I AM WHO I AM" (Exodus 3:14-15)
• 'I AM has sent me to you" (Exodus 3:14-15)
• "YHWH, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham" (Exodus 3:14-15)

Both passages refer to Abraham, even speaking of Abraham after Abraham's death.

The clause "I AM" speaks to the ever-presence of God with the people of God, that is, God with the people of God yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

Let us recount the ways, outlined above, that the Word of God recorded in John 8:58 and Exodus 3:14 truly are bound together:

• John 8:58 contains dialog about who God is.
• Exodus 3:14-15 contains dialog about who God is.
• John 8:58 includes Abraham after his death.
• Exodus 3:14-15 includes Abraham after his death.
• John 8:58 references the ever-present God, thst is, "I AM" with the people of God.
• Exodus 3:14-15 references the ever-present God, thst is, "I AM" with the people of God.

Lord Jesus Christ is truly YHWH God, the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4).

All people that deny the Spiritually true bond between the Word of God recorded in the John 8:58 and Exodus 3:14-15 passages effectively deny Jesus Christ thus all such people are under the wrath of God for the Word of God says "unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24).

 

[Waiting on him]

@Wrangler @Aunty Jane @DavidB @face2face @Waiting on him

Lord Jesus Christ's says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

Jesus Christ's words in John 8:58 germanely apply to the Word of God in Exodus 3:14-15 because both passages revolve around "who God is"; therefore, context between John 8:58 and Exodus 3:14 establishes.

That "I AM" in John 8:58 is "ego eimi" which also appears in the Septuagint version of Exodus 3:14 (the Septuagint is the Old Testament written in Greek about 200 years before Christ's birth); therefore, just like when Jesus says "My God, My God why have you forsaken Me" (Matthew 27:46) referring hearers to Psalm 22 which includes "They pierced my hands and my feet" (Psalm 22:16), in the same manner Jesus said "I AM" (ego eimi) referring hearers to Exodus 3:14 where God explains God's name to Moses with "I AM the Being" (ego eimi ho on); moreover, God continues explaining God's name in Exodus 3:14-15.

As the scriptural evidence shows, Jesus' words recorded in John 8:58 refer back to God's words in Exodus 3:14 and the continuing passage such as God's instruction for Moses to say to the Israelites "YHWH, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you" (Exodus 3:15) which is also Jesus Christ's message Who is like Moses (Deuteronomy 18:15).

In John 8:58, Jesus declares Himself to be "I AM the Being" (Septuagint), even "I AM WHO I AM" (Hebrew), YHWH God (Exodus 3:14).

The Hebrew version of Exodus 3:14 also contains the equivalent of "I AM" in the Hebrew language with glorious intensity.

Here is the passsge to which Jesus refers to as Jesus' name based upon His recorded words in John 8:58 (this is translated from Hebrew).

God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'" God, furthermore, said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'YHWH, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations." (Exodus 3:14-15).

See "I AM" and "Abraham" occur in both the John 8:58 and Exodus 3:14-15 passages thus intimately binding the Word of God over the centuries:

• "I AM" (John 8:58)
• "before Abraham was" (John 8:58)
• "I AM WHO I AM" (Exodus 3:14-15)
• 'I AM has sent me to you" (Exodus 3:14-15)
• "YHWH, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham" (Exodus 3:14-15)

Both passages refer to Abraham, even speaking of Abraham after Abraham's death.

The clause "I AM" speaks to the ever-presence of God with the people of God, that is, God with the people of God yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

Let us recount the ways, outlined above, that the Word of God recorded in John 8:58 and Exodus 3:14 truly are bound together:

• John 8:58 contains dialog about who God is.
• Exodus 3:14-15 contains dialog about who God is.
• John 8:58 includes Abraham after his death.
• Exodus 3:14-15 includes Abraham after his death.
• John 8:58 references the ever-present God, thst is, "I AM" with the people of God.
• Exodus 3:14-15 references the ever-present God, thst is, "I AM" with the people of God.

All people that deny the Spiritually true bond between the Word of God recorded in the John 8:58 and Exodus 3:14-15 passages effectively deny Jesus Christ thus all such people are under the wrath of God for the Word of God says "unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24).

I see many references in the scripture where Jesus called his disciples his brothers, are you saying you are Gods brother, and also can you provide some scripture where anyone calls Jesus father or where Jesus tells someone to call him father?

 

[Waiting on him]

John 20:17 KJV
[17] Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Touch me not but go to my brothers?
You guys need to stop reading commentary, and begin to think for yourselves

 

[Waiting on him]

John 20:17 KJV
[17] Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Touch me not but go to my brothers?
You guys need to stop reading commentary, and begin to think for yourselves

Imagine such a thing your god has a god.

 

[Jim B]

Imagine such a thing your god has a god.

If you don't understand the concept I would make more of an effort to do so if I were you. It is clear to those of us to whom God has made it clear.

 

[Jim B]

I see many references in the scripture where Jesus called his disciples his brothers, are you saying you are Gods brother, and also can you provide some scripture where anyone calls Jesus father or where Jesus tells someone to call him father?

Read my previous post #1466.

 

[Waiting on him]

If you don't understand the concept I would make more of an effort to do so if I were you. It is clear to those of us to whom God has made it clear.

I can’t believe a lie just too satisfy my critics, too much of that going on at the present.

 

[Jim B]

I can’t believe a lie just too satisfy my critics, too much of that going on at the present.

You're right: you just can't believe!

 

[face2face]

@Wrangler @Aunty Jane @DavidB @face2face @Waiting on him

Lord Jesus Christ's says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

Happy days! Now are you going to provide a coherent understanding of John 8:58 in context or just think quoting a Scripture equals trinitarian formula? Dont take the machine gun approach Kermos - try entering the text and hope for Psalms 119:130

 

[GRACE ambassador]

@Wrangler @Aunty Jane @DavidB @face2face @Waiting on him

Lord Jesus Christ's says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

Jesus Christ's words in John 8:58 germanely apply to the Word of God in Exodus 3:14-15 because both passages revolve around "who God is"; therefore, context between John 8:58 and Exodus 3:14 establishes.

That "I AM" in John 8:58 is "ego eimi" which also appears in the Septuagint version of Exodus 3:14 (the Septuagint is the Old Testament written in Greek about 200 years before Christ's birth); therefore, just like when Jesus says "My God, My God why have you forsaken Me" (Matthew 27:46) referring hearers to Psalm 22 which includes "They pierced my hands and my feet" (Psalm 22:16), in the same manner Jesus said "I AM" (ego eimi) referring hearers to Exodus 3:14 where God explains God's name to Moses with "I AM the Being" (ego eimi ho on); moreover, God continues explaining God's name in Exodus 3:14-15.

As the scriptural evidence shows, Jesus' words recorded in John 8:58 refer back to God's words in Exodus 3:14 and the continuing passage such as God's instruction for Moses to say to the Israelites "YHWH, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you" (Exodus 3:15) which is also Jesus Christ's message Who is like Moses (Deuteronomy 18:15).

In John 8:58, Jesus declares Himself to be "I AM the Being" (Septuagint), that is, YHWH God (Exodus 3:14), of which the Greek can also be rendered "I AM the One", YHWH God (Exodus 3:14).

The Hebrew version of Exodus 3:14 also contains the equivalent of "I AM" in the Hebrew language with glorious intensity.

In John 8:58, Jesus declares Himself to be "I AM WHO I AM" (Hebrew), YHWH God (Exodus 3:14).

Here is the passsge to which Jesus refers to as Jesus' name based upon His recorded words in John 8:58 (this is translated from Hebrew).

God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'" God, furthermore, said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'YHWH, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations." (Exodus 3:14-15).

See "I AM" and "Abraham" occur in both the John 8:58 and Exodus 3:14-15 passages thus intimately binding the Word of God over the centuries:

• "I AM" (John 8:58)
• "before Abraham was" (John 8:58)
• "I AM WHO I AM" (Exodus 3:14-15)
• 'I AM has sent me to you" (Exodus 3:14-15)
• "YHWH, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham" (Exodus 3:14-15)

Both passages refer to Abraham, even speaking of Abraham after Abraham's death.

The clause "I AM" speaks to the ever-presence of God with the people of God, that is, God with the people of God yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

Let us recount the ways, outlined above, that the Word of God recorded in John 8:58 and Exodus 3:14 truly are bound together:

• John 8:58 contains dialog about who God is.
• Exodus 3:14-15 contains dialog about who God is.
• John 8:58 includes Abraham after his death.
• Exodus 3:14-15 includes Abraham after his death.
• John 8:58 references the ever-present God, thst is, "I AM" with the people of God.
• Exodus 3:14-15 references the ever-present God, thst is, "I AM" with the people of God.

Lord Jesus Christ is truly YHWH God, the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4).

All people that deny the Spiritually true bond between the Word of God recorded in the John 8:58 and Exodus 3:14-15 passages effectively deny Jesus Christ thus all such people are under the wrath of God for the Word of God says "unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24).

Amen! Yes, I fear for and pray for those who deny This Truth, Also Confirmed By...

You guys need to stop reading commentary, and begin to think for yourselves

The BIBLE IS "It's OWN Best Commentary!" (Rule #6 Bible study Rules!)

...Also Confirmed By These Biblical Scriptures:

"And The Father Himself, Which Hath Sent Me, Hath Borne
Witness Of Me. Ye have neither heard His Voice at any time,
nor seen His Shape." (John_5:37)

"No man hath seen God at any time; The Only Begotten Son,
Which Is In The Bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."
(John_1:18)

"No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another,
God Dwelleth in us, and His Love Is Perfected in us."
(I John_4:12)​

True, no man has ever seen or heard "The Father," However:

"...The LORD (The SON) Appeared unto him (Abraham Ch 17 v 20)
in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of
the day" (Genesis_19:1 cp 'LORD Of Glory' 1Co 2:8)

Gen 48:3 "And Jacob said unto Joseph, God Almighty (The SON)
Appeared Unto me at Luz in the land of Canaan, and Blessed me,"​

"Moses/Israel 'heard His (The SON's) Voice,' (Exodus 19:19-20:1),
And Moses 'saw His Back Parts,' (Exodus 33:17-23), Correct?
+
500 Passages The LORD JESUS CHRIST Is Almighty God!

No other man-made commentary necessary!! Amen?

GRACE And Peace...

 

[face2face]

If you don't understand the concept I would make more of an effort to do so if I were you. It is clear to those of us to whom God has made it clear.

This is a lie (said respectfully). The most trained scholars who are trained in the complexities of the Trinity all agree many things cannot be explained or understood - they simply conclude, "its a mystery". In fact, you look up any credible encyclopedia and they will say;

God is not a simple unity (there's the lie!); there is plurality in his unity. The Trinity is one of the great mysteries (see Mystery) of the Christian Faith.

We are not surprised the lie concludes in a mystery.

 

[Waiting on him]

Amen! Yes, I fear for and pray for those who deny This Truth, Also Confirmed By...

The BIBLE IS "It's OWN Best Commentary!" (Rule #6 Bible study Rules!)

...Also Confirmed By These Biblical Scriptures:

"And The Father Himself, Which Hath Sent Me, Hath Borne
Witness Of Me. Ye have neither heard His Voice at any time,
nor seen His Shape." (John_5:37)

"No man hath seen God at any time; The Only Begotten Son,
Which Is In The Bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."
(John_1:18)

"No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another,
God Dwelleth in us, and His Love Is Perfected in us."
(I John_4:12)​

True, no man has ever seen or heard "The Father," However:

"...The LORD (The SON) Appeared unto him (Abraham Ch 17 v 20)
in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of
the day" (Genesis_19:1)

Gen 48:3 "And Jacob said unto Joseph, God Almighty (The SON)
Appeared Unto me at Luz in the land of Canaan, and Blessed me,"​

"Moses/Israel 'heard His (The SON's) Voice,' (Exodus 19:19-20:1),
And Moses 'saw His Back Parts,' (Exodus 33:17-23), Correct?
+
500 Passages The LORD JESUS CHRIST Is Almighty God!

No other man-made commentary necessary!!

GRACE And Peace...

According to Jesus they didn’t see or hear God. So which is it?

 

[MrBebe]

Good day,

Here is your quoted verses:

John 3:29 KJV
He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
Luke 3:22 KJV

And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
None of us were there, not even you. So, we have to rely on the words of John and Luke. You said that:​

Ok so John the Baptist stated he saw the bride and bridegroom at the baptism of Jesus. Are you saying you were there too? Was marks there?

Here is the witness of John at that time:

Joh 1:29-34 KJV
(29) The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
(30) This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
(31) And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
(32) And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
(33) And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
(34) And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.​

John saw Jesus. He also saw the Holy Spirit in a bodily shape like a dove. And according to Luke 3:22, a voice from heaven was also heard.

The statement of John, the Baptist, in 3:29 regarding the events at the baptism of the Lord Yeshua is:

"He that hath the bride is the bridegroom..."​

The bridegroom is understood to be the Lord Yeshua as the imagery was also used in Mat 9:15 BUT the Holy Spirit as the bride... is just your assumption. John did NOT say that the bride is the Holy Spirit, he did not even say DIRECTLY that the bridegroom is Jesus but that's what the other passages in the scriptures tell.

The Baptist knew that the Lord is a bridegroom and has a bride. Notice his witness of Jesus' baptism (John 1:29), he called him "the Lamb of God". Who is the bride of the Lamb?

(Rev 19:7 KJV) Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
(Rev 19:8 KJV) And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.​

Do the attributes of the wife of the Lamb points to the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit can't be the bride of the Lamb.

 

[MrBebe]

The Baptist also said he heard the voice of the bridegroom, so I ask you who spoke at Jesus’s baptism?

The imagery of the bridegroom and the bride in John 3:29 is not exclusively referring to Jesus' baptism. And not all of the things in an imagery refer to the things of the circumstance it is being used for. There are many commentaries on this verse which almost all are similar:

John 3:29 Commentaries: "He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom's voice. So this joy of mine has been made full.​

The "voice" of the bridegroom in John 3:29 is not the voice heard at Jesus' baptism. The one who spoke at Jesus' baptism can be known in Luke 3:22.

 

[Waiting on him]

The imagery of the bridegroom and the bride in John 3:29 is not exclusively referring to Jesus' baptism. And not all of the things in an imagery refer to the things of the circumstance it is being used for. There are many commentaries on this verse which almost all are similar:

John 3:29 Commentaries: "He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom's voice. So this joy of mine has been made full.​

The "voice" of the bridegroom in John 3:29 is not the voice heard at Jesus' baptism. The one who spoke at Jesus' baptism can be known in Luke 3:22.

Luke 5:34 KJV
[34] And he said unto them, Can ye make the children of the bridechamber fast, while the bridegroom is with them?

Ask yourself, what is a bridechamber and what is a child?

 

[Waiting on him]

Now I can give you countless scriptural references where those born of God are the children of God. This is not on topic, so we should probably leave it at that.

 

[Kermos]

I see many references in the scripture where Jesus called his disciples his brothers, are you saying you are Gods brother, and also can you provide some scripture where anyone calls Jesus father or where Jesus tells someone to call him father?

As to the conclusion of your post, why do you ask "can you provide some scripture where anyone calls Jesus father or where Jesus tells someone to call him father"?

Returning to the opening of your post, Lord Jesus reveals Himself as truly God and truly Man at His discretion

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

Based on this Truth (John 14:6), Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as Man at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Furthermore. Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as God at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Here is an instance of Jesus, truly God, saying "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of God thus including both the person of Jesus and the person of the Father in the One True God.

Here is another instance, this time of Jesus, truly Man, saying "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'" (John 20:17) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of Man thus including the person of Jesus and His brothers in one (John 17:21). See, the Son of Man being the firstborn of the born of God persons (Romans 8:29, Colossians 1:15, John 3:3-8).

We, children of God, can also refer to Jesus in his capacity as truly God as well as His capacity as truly Man. We can use context to make the distinction.

We, born of the Holy Spirit of God persons (John 3:3-8), are one in God (John 17:21) because of the indwelling Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17), thus God is One. We are the blessed beneficiaries of the Holy Spirit of God's work in us.

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Pearl]

As to the conclusion of your post, why do you ask "can you provide some scripture where anyone calls Jesus father or where Jesus tells someone to call him father"?

Jesus is not God the Father, nor is he God the Holy Spirit he is God the Son - Three distinct persons in one. It is not logical and that is why people without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit find it so hard to comprehend and accept what is at the heart of the Christian Church.

To understand the things of God one must first have the Spirit of God.

 

[Waiting on him]

Here is an instance of Jesus, truly God, saying "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of God thus including both the person of Jesus and the person of the Father in the One True God.

here’s an instance of Jesus saying they have separate wills


Luke 22:42 KJV
[42] Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

 

[Kermos]

Happy days! Now are you going to provide a coherent understanding of John 8:58 in context or just think quoting a Scripture equals trinitarian formula? Dont take the machine gun approach Kermos - try entering the text and hope for Psalms 119:130

So, it appears that you reject the Word of God Who says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58) for the conversation is about "who God is".

You cannot point at a single scripture that says Jesus was created.

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).