For Vince: Progressive Revelation on Slavery, Violence and War, Eternal Damnaton, etc.

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Berserk

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Progressive revelation is the key to understanding how Jesus and Paul can oppose the slavery that was tolerated in ancient Israel.
(1) In the Sermon on the Mount Jesus offers progressive revelation that at times nullifies Mosaic laws in the Pentateuch. Jesus repeatedly introduces His new revelation with the phrase 'You have heard that it was said of old...but I say unto you." For example, consider Jesus' repudiation of Moses' commandment about divorce:

"He answered them, "What did Moses command you?" They said; "Moses allowed a man to write a certificate of dismissal and to divorce her." But Jesus said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart he wrote this commandment for you. But from the beginning of creation "God made them male and female." For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, :and they shall become one flesh." ...Therefore, what God has joined together, let no man separate (Mark 10:3-9)."
In other words, the cultural bias of the ancient Israelites closed their minds to the values God wanted to reveal to them. So God chose to work within their biased belief system to secure what obedience He could inspire, with the plan of providing them more accurate revelation of His values and His will through Jesus, when the time was right for them to hear it.

(2) Similarly, at the time of Moses, agrarian culture created a widespread bias that the divine must be appeased through a system of sacrifice. But through Jeremiah God makes it clear that ideally the Israelite sacrifice system contradicted His will:

"Thus says...the God of Israel: Add your burnt offerings to your sacrifices and eat the flesh. For on the day I brought your ancestors out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to them or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices. But this command I gave them: "Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be my people (Jeremiah 7:21-23)."

But the Israelite bias prevented them from being open to God's opposition to their sacrifice system. So God chose to reveal His will within that system as a structure for promoting His core spiritual and ethical values. Note God's sarcastic suggestion that they eat the sacrifices instead of offering them up to Him.

(3) Similarly, the ancient Israelites presume divine authorization for their massacres in the conquest of Canaan and are not open to God's preference for nonviolent resolution of conflict. Their liberation from Egyptian slavery requires a fertile Promised Land elsewhere. So they view their violent takeover of land as a necessary evil for survival. But God twice makes His preferred anti-war stance clear through Isaiah and Jeremiah:

"They shall be their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks' nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn warcraft any more (Isaiah 2:4 = Micah 4:3)."

Finally, Jesus repudiates the ancient Israelite pro-violence with His teaching on loving enemies and nonretaliation.
 

VictoryinJesus

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I don't see any justification in the text to assume God is talking about spiritual things and neither do most of the scholars translating the scriptures.

1 Corinthians 2:13-14
[13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. [14] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them , because they are spiritually discerned.

Then most scholars disagree with what it says?
 

VictoryinJesus

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My beef is not that they could not end slavery but that they never spoke against it. Paul institutionalized it and never once said for a slave to try to free himself but to serve his owner as best he could.

Where did Paul ever tell a slave to do whatever it takes to free himself from his master?

Paul never said to Philemon to let Onesimus go. Also, he sent Onesimus back to be a slave and left it up to Philemon to decide what to do with him. Why did he just not tell Philemon that God is against slavery? And Paul's reason for asking this of Philemon is linked to Onesimus status as a fellow believer which seems imply that he does not think that believers should be slaves. Where does Paul ever condemn slavery for everyone else?

Ephesians 5:9-10
[9] (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth[10] Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.

Galatians 5:22-23
[22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, [23] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Colossians 3:15
[15] And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.

Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.” Is what the children are to do. Why would Paul say any different then to let the peace of God rule? Is that not what is acceptable to Him who said He desires mercy and not sacrifice?
 

Vince

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1 Corinthians 2:13-14
[13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. [14] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them , because they are spiritually discerned.

Then most scholars disagree with what it says?
No, show me that Exodus 21 is talking about spiritual slavery and not actual slavery.
 

Vince

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Ephesians 5:9-10
[9] (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth[10] Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.

Galatians 5:22-23
[22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, [23] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Colossians 3:15
[15] And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.

Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.” Is what the children are to do. Why would Paul say any different then to let the peace of God rule? Is that not what is acceptable to Him who said He desires mercy and not sacrifice?
Then why did he say for slaves to obey their masters as they are to obey Christ? Why not say Jesus wants slavery to be abolished?
 

VictoryinJesus

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No, show me that Exodus 21 is talking about spiritual slavery and not actual slavery.

Never meant to imply that Exodus was not about literal slavery. Only that like the plagues and striking the door post with blood ...there is also the Spiritual...the Revelation of Jesus Christ revealing much of the same journey (Exodus) out of “this world”. He said to seek first the Kingdom of God. That is all I’m saying. For instance blacks and whites; even without physical slavery there is still a Spiritual slavery of hatred and resentment and blame and pointing the finger and hurt. Not saying the physical is not important but only suggesting the physical cannot end slavery but only temporarily. Without seek first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness; the mind-set is still there and will continue. Mark 10:42-45 But Jesus called them to him , and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. [43] But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: [44] And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all. [45] For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.


Even the words said to Pharaoh “Let My people go.” Exodus 9:17 As yet exaltest thou thyself against my people, that thou wilt not let them go?

Even when God lead them out (the Exodus) of the physical bondage, the parting of the Red Sea; they remained in the spiritual bondage enslaved to Egypt always looking back and wanting to return to what they called better than what God provided.
 
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Vince

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Never meant to imply that Exodus was not about literal slavery. Only that like the plagues and striking the door post with blood ...there is also the Spiritual...the Revelation of Jesus Christ revealing much of the same journey (Exodus) out of “this world”. He said to seek first the Kingdom of God. That is all I’m saying. For instance blacks and whites; even without physical slavery there is still a Spiritual slavery of hatred and resentment and blame and pointing the finger and hurt. Not saying the physical is not important but only suggesting the physical cannot end slavery but only temporarily. Without seek first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness; the mind-set is still there and will continue. Mark 10:42-45 But Jesus called them to him , and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. [43] But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: [44] And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all. [45] For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.


Even the words said to Pharaoh “Let My people go.” Exodus 9:17 As yet exaltest thou thyself against my people, that thou wilt not let them go?

Even when God lead them out (the Exodus) of the physical bondage, the parting of the Red Sea; they remained in the spiritual bondage enslaved to Egypt always looking back and wanting to return to what they called better than what God provided.
I will give you the spiritual slavery exists in your belief. You admitted though that there was physical slavery. God allowed for it and made rules to physically punish slaves. Is this moral?
 

VictoryinJesus

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I will give you the spiritual slavery exists in your belief. You admitted though that there was physical slavery. God allowed for it and made rules to physically punish slaves. Is this moral?

You ask a hard question. Don’t have an answer. Of course there is physical slavery. Not denying it is there. Even children are enslaved and sold in sex-trafficking.
 

Taken

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Vince: "I am not against god. I don't believe he exists."

You have decided an improbable conclusion.
God has already decided and declared;
If you are Not With Him, you ARE Against Him.

Vince: "I am just asking why the bible does not condemn slavery in any way."

You are in error, Theft is not condoned.
Stealing a man to make him a SLAVE was not condoned.


Vince: "This has nothing to do with why god made up rules for the Hebrews to enslave another by force

Can you QUOTE a Biblical Verse to support your claim?

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Taken

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I will give you the spiritual slavery exists in your belief. You admitted though that there was physical slavery. God allowed for it and made rules to physically punish slaves. Is this moral?

That would hinge on what is JUST.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Vince

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You have decided an improbable conclusion.
God has already decided and declared;
If you are Not With Him, you ARE Against Him.
I said I don't believe he exists not that he does not exist.

You are in error, Theft is not condoned.
Stealing a man to make him a SLAVE was not condoned.

Can you QUOTE a Biblical Verse to support your claim?
Correct, but being allowed to buy and sell slaves from other nations is equivalent to force. The slave has no say in the matter because god calls them property. Are humans property?
 

Taken

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I said I don't believe he exists not that he does not exist.

Fully aware YOU make the rules for you.
But you do not make the rules for God.
His rules is cut and dry...
If you are not WITH Him, you ARE Against Him. His Rules concering HIM.
It's not rocket science, If you do not KNOW if God Exists...duh, you are NOT WITH HIM.

Correct, but being allowed to buy and sell slaves from other nations is equivalent to force.

Try to stay in Context.
Buying and selling, IS NOT THEFT!

Buying and selling, IS a Transaction.
Theft is Stealing what is not yours.

If you want to talk about the THIRD Party, ie the SLAVE, then talk about "action" between the THEIF who STOLE the person (SLAVE).

The slave has no say in the matter

A STOLEN person, has no say.
A person WHO subjects themselves, DOES have a SAY.

The Matter is ABOUT A THIEF, sealing a person. Why are you trying to Point your finger, and Complaints at everyone BUT THE THIEF?

because god calls them property.

So? God called a Transaction between buyer and Seller "property" unto the buyer. So what?

Are humans property?

Yes. And some Humans Willingly give themselves to be BOUGHT with the PRICE Jesus PAID.

For example this Scripture Applies to me, but not you, because I was Willing and Chose...and you didn't.

1 Cor 6
[20] For ye are bought with a price:

See, men were given options to WILLINGLY PAY their DEBTS to another, by and through becoming an others Slave to PAY their DEBT.

I chose to give my Life to the Lord, to PAY off my Debt to Him.

Seems you have a different mode, acceptable to you when you can not meet your obligation to pay off debts to others.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Vince

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Fully aware YOU make the rules for you.
But you do not make the rules for God.
His rules is cut and dry...
If you are not WITH Him, you ARE Against Him. His Rules concering HIM.
It's not rocket science, If you do not KNOW if God Exists...duh, you are NOT WITH HIM.
Ok. Just like I am an enemy of Allah, Vishnu , Bigfoot etc.

Try to stay in Context.
Buying and selling, IS NOT THEFT!

Buying and selling, IS a Transaction.
Theft is Stealing what is not yours.
I agreed to this.

A STOLEN person, has no say.
A person WHO subjects themselves, DOES have a SAY.
Not all the slaves subjected themselves. They were bought and sold as property that they had no say in.

So? God called a Transaction between buyer and Seller "property" unto the buyer. So what?
Wow. This is an example of how religion can warp your morals.

Yes. And some Humans Willingly give themselves to be BOUGHT with the PRICE Jesus PAID.

For example this Scripture Applies to me, but not you, because I was Willing and Chose...and you didn't.
This has nothing to do with the slavery in Exodus and Leviticus. Not all slaves were voluntary, a fact that you want to ignore.

1 Cor 6
[20] For ye are bought with a price:

See, men were given options to WILLINGLY PAY their DEBTS to another, by and through becoming an others Slave to PAY their DEBT.

I chose to give my Life to the Lord, to PAY off my Debt to Him.

Seems you have a different mode, acceptable to you when you can not meet your obligation to pay off debts to others.
Give me sufficient evidence I owe a debt.
 

Taken

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Ok. Just like I am an enemy of Allah, Vishnu , Bigfoot etc.

I wouldn't know who you are enemies of.
I have no consideration of wondering who I might be enemies of.

Not all the slaves subjected themselves.

Bingo, NO KIDDING.
Obviously, A THIEF was the culprit!

They were bought and sold as property that they had no say in.

BECAUSE?
Go back to the CULPRIT...the THIEF.

Wow. This is an example of how religion can warp your morals.

Oh good grief, are you so naive to not know every day, PEOPLE WILLINGING GIVE the whole or parts of their BODY to others....??
And OTHER people DAILY "STEAL" the whole or parts of 'other' peoples BODIES?

ARE YOU accountable for what others Choose to do? Particularly....the THIEF?

This has nothing to do with the slavery in Exodus and Leviticus. Not all slaves were voluntary, a fact that you want to ignore.

That is false. I already EXPRESSLY stated, "THIEVES" Steal PEOPLE.
You focus on what becomes of people who are stolen...without one iota acknowledgement of the THIEFS involvement.
Your whole grip has been ABOUT the "stolen persons" demise of being made to BE a Slave, and trying to PUT BLAME on God, and on a person who BUYS .... NOT STEALS.... but BUYS another for a Slave.

You are on edge, because GOD DID NOt FORBID, the BUYING of men by men....AS IF, a human should be OUTSIDE the boundary to being BOUGHT.

Everything in Scripture....from Adultry to Slavery is ABOUT men becoming PREPARED to BE WITH God "ONLY" and men becoming PREPARED to GIVE their LIFE exclusively to God.

So, YES, God gave Specific Rules, for HOW men should TREAT Slaves.....JUST as God gave specific INFORMATION on HOW God would TREAT men who exclusively GIVE Him the Authority over their LIFE.

Give me sufficient evidence I owe a debt.

If you are familiar with what YOUR LIFE IS...
Or IF you are NOT...you could learn; from scripture, from science....
Your mortal life is YOUR BLOOD.

Sin, IS Disbelief in thee Lord God.

Sin, requires a PAYMENT, to be RELIEVED (forgiven) of the Sin.

The Payment IS 'PURE" Blood.

Problem is NO Earthly man HAS PURE BLOOD.
Every mans life has been TAINTED, with DISBELIEF/Sin.

Solution is God provides a solution, acceptable to Him, to the Dilemma of requiring PURE blood, when every mans Blood is Tainted.

God Sent Jesus to earth, IN a Body prepared of God, for the PRIMARY purpose of Jesus giving HIS PURE blood IN the stead of every man.

Every individual man, WHO accepts Jesus' Offering....can Receive Forgiveness BY and THROUGH Jesus' Offering, which makes the man WHO DOES accept Jesus' Offering, INDEBTED to Jesus.

^^ THAT mans BLOOD, becomes "washed" and 'purified" and acceptable to become his DEBT repayment to Jesus.

God is going to TAKE your LIFE, whether or not YOU Choose to GIVE your life to Him.

Some people BELIEVE, God provided mankind with a WAY, to accept the GIVING of JESUS' PURE BLOOD, to pay our debt of Disbelief.

I have no obligation to convince you to believe what Scripture teaches....
That is your freewill to choose what is offered you, or not.

Glory to God,
Taken