Four Times People Physically Tried To Kill JESUS, But He Would Not Let Them Until He Decided When = Luke 4;24-31
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
The Father is the only Person identified as THE ONLY TRUE God. Scripture tells us over and over again there is only one God, the Creator, YHWH.
Sure, there are other gods referred to but they are not the Creator.
hope this helps !!! And have a great weekend.
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
Not true so is the Son.
And the Son is called the only LORD , the One Lord and the ONLY Sovereign .
So using your logic the Father is not Lord (YHWH) or Sovereign only the Son is the One Lord who is Sovereign over all.
hope this helps !!!
NOPE..... lord and Savior is not the same as God and Savior.... Sorry but your not reading scripture.... but at you want to hear ....
Let's review your Verse.....
Net Bible 2Pe 1:11 For thus an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, will be richly provided for you.
NASB 2Pe 1:11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.
KJV 2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Tyndale 1534 2Pe 1:11 Ye and by this meanes an entrynge in shall be ministred vnto you aboundantly in to the everlastynge kyngdome of oure lorde and saveoure Iesus Christ.
Because Peter knows who God is....
1 Peter 1:3 - "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."
Jesus knows who God is....
Joh 20:17 Jesus *said to her, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'"
You need to be honest...
Paul
Thank you for posting scripture that proves you wrong.... Seeing the egg on your spiritual face is bitter sweet for sure!!!
LOL
Man you made it so easy to prove you wrong for all to see...
Thanks for the help...
Paul
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ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
You need to be honest with the text . The same construction in the Greek for both passages. Christ is called Lord/ Savior and God/Savior in both of them . You cannot have your theological biased cake and eat it too . You cannot have it both ways as the text will not allow your biased view.
hope this helps !!!
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
Jesus asked that question and lets here the testimony of Jesus, the Apostles and scripture.
Jesus said He was the I Am who existed before Abraham was born. He says He is the Savior, Lord, Christ, The Alpha and Omega the First and the Last. The names and titles of YHWH for sure
John calls Him God, YHWH and true God in his writings
Peter call Him God and Savior in his writings
Jude calls Him the only Lord to the exclusion of all others.
Paul calls Him God, Lord, Lord over all, YHWH in his writings
Thomas called Him God.
Now the question remains today? Can you confess like those above that Jesus is YHWH(God) ?
If not then you deny the Son. Remember Jesus also said those who deny the Son the Father will also deny !
Lets see what the Apostles who were inspired by God to record in Scripture
Matthew
Matthew said He was Immanuel, God with us- Matthew 1:23
John
John said the Word was God and the Word became flesh John 1:1,14
John said Jesus is the True God and Eternal Life- 1 John 5:20
John said Jesus is the I AM ( YHWH) the Alpha and Omega, The First and the Last- Revelation 22:12-13
John said Jesus is the Lord God Almighty, the Alpha and Omega- Revelation 1:8
Thomas
Thomas said Jesus was His Lord and His God- John 20:28
Peter
Peter said Jesus is our God and Savior- 2 Peter 1:1
James
James said Jesus is the Lord that elders call upon to heal the sick- James 5:14
James said the Prophets spoke in His name YHWH- James 5:10
Jude
Jude said He is YHWH, the Only Sovereign and Lord- Jude 1:4
Jude said Jesus is the Lord( YHWH) who delivered his people out of Egypt- Jude 1:8
Paul
Paul says Jesus is our God and Savior- Titus 2:13
Paul says Jesus is YHWH( Lord)- Romans 10:13 and Joel 2:32
Paul says all the fulness of Deity ( God ) dwells in Him Bodily- Colossians 1:19, 2:9
Author of Hebrews
He said Jesus is the Creator who is YHWH that made everything and called Him God- Hebrews 1:8-10
Jesus
Jesus said He is the I Am ( YHWH)- John 8:58
Jesus said he who has seen Me has seen the Father- John 14:9
Jesus said He was EQUAL with the Father- John 5:17-18
hope this helps !!!
Jesus said He was the I Am who existed before Abraham was born. He says He is the Savior, Lord, Christ, The Alpha and Omega the First and the Last. The names and titles of YHWH for sure
John calls Him God, YHWH and true God in his writings
Peter call Him God and Savior in his writings
Jude calls Him the only Lord to the exclusion of all others.
Paul calls Him God, Lord, Lord over all, YHWH in his writings
Thomas called Him God.
Now the question remains today? Can you confess like those above that Jesus is YHWH(God) ?
If not then you deny the Son. Remember Jesus also said those who deny the Son the Father will also deny !
Lets see what the Apostles who were inspired by God to record in Scripture
Matthew
Matthew said He was Immanuel, God with us- Matthew 1:23
John
John said the Word was God and the Word became flesh John 1:1,14
John said Jesus is the True God and Eternal Life- 1 John 5:20
John said Jesus is the I AM ( YHWH) the Alpha and Omega, The First and the Last- Revelation 22:12-13
John said Jesus is the Lord God Almighty, the Alpha and Omega- Revelation 1:8
Thomas
Thomas said Jesus was His Lord and His God- John 20:28
Peter
Peter said Jesus is our God and Savior- 2 Peter 1:1
James
James said Jesus is the Lord that elders call upon to heal the sick- James 5:14
James said the Prophets spoke in His name YHWH- James 5:10
Jude
Jude said He is YHWH, the Only Sovereign and Lord- Jude 1:4
Jude said Jesus is the Lord( YHWH) who delivered his people out of Egypt- Jude 1:8
Paul
Paul says Jesus is our God and Savior- Titus 2:13
Paul says Jesus is YHWH( Lord)- Romans 10:13 and Joel 2:32
Paul says all the fulness of Deity ( God ) dwells in Him Bodily- Colossians 1:19, 2:9
Author of Hebrews
He said Jesus is the Creator who is YHWH that made everything and called Him God- Hebrews 1:8-10
Jesus
Jesus said He is the I Am ( YHWH)- John 8:58
Jesus said he who has seen Me has seen the Father- John 14:9
Jesus said He was EQUAL with the Father- John 5:17-18
hope this helps !!!
Did Thomas call Jesus God???
When you look at some verses in the Old and New Testament you have to remember to look at them with a Hebrew or Greek mind of that period, and not a 20th century mind. Some language can mean something to us that it did not mean back then. For example, if an Englishman says, "I am mad about my flat" he means that he is exited about his apartment. To an American, that same phrase means that he is angry about his flat tire. The word "God" for example, means to us in the 20th century "The Almighty God." To a Jew it did not necessarily mean "Almighty God." In Psalms 82: 1 & 6 God refers to earthly rulers as gods. This is the same passage that Jesus quotes to the Jews when they accuse him of saying that he is God. Paraphrasing Jesus, he says to them; "If it is okay to call men gods, why is it blasphemous for me to say that I am the Son of God"(John 10: 33 - 38). Notice how when Jesus is accused of being God, he quickly corrects them that he is not God, but the Son of God. In 2 Corinthians 4: 4 Satan is also called the "god of this age." Does that mean that he is God Almighty? Of course not!
John even tells us just 3 verses later why he wrote about Thomas story… In John 20:31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name. If Thomas was really calling Jesus GOD almighty then John just contradicted why he wrote his writings.
The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church points out what an early Christian father, Origen (185-254 AD) says about the word "God." "The Son is theos (God), but only the Father is autotheos" (absolute God, God in himself).
This is the reason there is an Almighty God or a Most High God, in order to differentiate the only true God from the others. Another fact to consider when approaching this verse is to understand whom John believes God and Jesus to be.
John wrote his gospel to testify that Jesus is the Son of God, not God the Son. Let us take a look again at what John believes in order to not take one verse and unjustly imply a certain belief on John.
John 17:3
"Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."
Revelation 1:6
"Who (Jesus) has made us into a kingdom, priests for his God and Father"
John 20:17
"But go to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’"
Remember that John’s whole purpose for writing his Gospel is to prove that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, not God.
"But these are written that you may come to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God" (John 20: 31). NOTE written only 3 verses later after Thomas comment!!!
We must keep John's reason for writing his gospel fresh in our minds as we try to understand this verse. In his gospel, John distinguishes completely between the only true God and Jesus Christ To imply that John believed in a three in one God would be to do a terrible injustice to John.
So what does Thomas mean? To us in the modern world it might at first seem odd, but when you put yourself in Thomas’s place as a Jew in Jesus’ day, it will make all the sense in the world.
The Catholic New American Bible defines this usage of the word god:
"The king, in courtly language is called god, representing God to the people."
Aspects of Monotheism states: "god" is an allegorical equivalent for "king."
This is the definition of the Messiah. The Messiah is the king of Israel who represents God to the people (John 1:49). Thomas was just stating that fact. When he saw Jesus resurrected, it proved to him that He was indeed the Messiah. Thomas’ statement is the equivalent of saying, My Lord and my king. This is not just my opinion; it is easily verified in the Old Testament. Remember, God = king = Messiah.
This kind of language was common in those days. Let’s look at a similar verse.
1 Samuel 24:9 states:
"David also stepped out of the cave, calling to Saul, "My lord and my king."
My lord and my God = My lord and my king.
This verse mean the same thing. Thomas is addressing the king of Israel in exactly the same way that David did. You just have to speak like a first century Jew.
Luke 2:11 states:
"A savior has been born for you who is Messiah and Lord."
Acts 2:36 states:
"God has made him both Lord and Messiah, this Jesus whom you crucified."
Lord and Messiah = Lord and king = Lord and God.
There is for me one great proof that Thomas did not mean Jesus is Almighty God when he called Jesus God. When Thomas called Jesus "My lord and my God " all the Apostles were in the room. If this statement is true, then it is logical to assume that from now on, all the Apostles know that Jesus is really God. So from that point onward Jesus should be addressed as God. But as you can see in all the writings of the New Testament, none of the Apostles ever refer to Jesus as Almighty God or YHWH . Not once in the entire New Testament do they ever pray to Jesus. They make clear distinctions between the two. They in fact write about the God of Jesus Christ (John 20:17). Remember, "No one has ever seen God" (1 John 4: 12). Same author.
You need to seek the truth... and not seek that which you thinks supports your truth... Thus why you fail!!!
Paul
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
This is getting way to easy refuting the unitarians.
To Confess
NT:3670 o(mologe/w homologeo (hom-ol-og-eh'-o);
Strong's Concordance
homologeó: to speak the same, to agree
Original Word: ὁμολογέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: homologeó
Phonetic Spelling: (hom-ol-og-eh'-o)
Definition: to speak the same, to agree
Usage: (a) I promise, agree, (b) I confess, (c) I publicly declare, (d) a Hebraism, I praise, celebrate.
3670 homologéō (from 3674 /homoú, "together" and 3004 /légō, "speak to a conclusion") – properly, to voice the same conclusion, i.e. agree ("confess"); to profess (confess) because in full agreement; to align with (endorse)
Joel 2:32
32 "And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord
Will be delivered;
For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
There will be those who escape,
As the Lord has said,
Even among the survivors whom the Lord calls.
Here we see Paul quote this OT passage about YHWH and apply it to Jesus who is the one and only Lord according to the N.T.
Romans 10:9-13
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
So a person must confess Jesus is YHWH(Lord) to be saved. Confess means to agree with so the person confessing Jesus is Lord is in agreement that He is YHWH. Whoever will call upon the name of the Lord ( YHWH) will be saved.
hope this helps !!!
To Confess
NT:3670 o(mologe/w homologeo (hom-ol-og-eh'-o);
Strong's Concordance
homologeó: to speak the same, to agree
Original Word: ὁμολογέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: homologeó
Phonetic Spelling: (hom-ol-og-eh'-o)
Definition: to speak the same, to agree
Usage: (a) I promise, agree, (b) I confess, (c) I publicly declare, (d) a Hebraism, I praise, celebrate.
3670 homologéō (from 3674 /homoú, "together" and 3004 /légō, "speak to a conclusion") – properly, to voice the same conclusion, i.e. agree ("confess"); to profess (confess) because in full agreement; to align with (endorse)
Joel 2:32
32 "And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord
Will be delivered;
For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
There will be those who escape,
As the Lord has said,
Even among the survivors whom the Lord calls.
Here we see Paul quote this OT passage about YHWH and apply it to Jesus who is the one and only Lord according to the N.T.
Romans 10:9-13
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
So a person must confess Jesus is YHWH(Lord) to be saved. Confess means to agree with so the person confessing Jesus is Lord is in agreement that He is YHWH. Whoever will call upon the name of the Lord ( YHWH) will be saved.
hope this helps !!!
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
Its time to bury the unitarian false god.
Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the Lord God Almighty !
These passages in Revelation make it clear that Jesus is God. Remember it is Jesus in the NT who is Coming back to earth that every eye will see. It was Jesus who was pierced on the cross for our sins. John is clearly once again calling Jesus God!!!!!!! The Coming and the coming in the clouds never refers to the Father in the NT but always to Jesus.
Revelation 1:7-8
7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
8 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
We know from Revelation 1:8 that Alpha and Omega is the Almighty. So we can see that Christ is the Almighty
Revelation 1:17
17And when I saw Him, I fell at his feet as dead. And He laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I Am the first and the last:
We know from Revelation 1:17-18 that the first and the last is He that lives, was dead but is alive forevermore is Christ.
Revelation 2:8
"To the angel of the church in Smyrna write: These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again.
Revelation 22:12-13
12 "Behold, I Am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."
We know from Revelation 22:13 that the first and the last is the Alpha and Omega.
Revelation 22:16,20
16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."
20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I Am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
The immediate text clearly tells us that it was Jesus who was pierced and who is Coming in the clouds. This person coming in the clouds is God(Jesus-the Son of Man),
Daniel 7:13-14
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 "And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.
Matthew 24:30-31
30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Matthew 26:64
Jesus said to him, "You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."
1 Thessalonians 4:17-18
Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
Revelation 1:7-8
7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
8 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
Conclusion: So we can see that the One who comes/is coming in the NT always refers to Jesus the Son of Man and NEVER refers to the Father. Therefore we can conclude it is Jesus who is coming whom John calls God the Alpha and Omega. This is sound biblical exegesis based on the context of the passage as well as the principle established in both Testaments on the One who is Coming in/with the Clouds- The Son of Man not the Father !!!!!!
Isaiah 44:6
Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
'I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me.
Isaiah 48:12
"Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called;
I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.
hope this helps !!!
Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the Lord God Almighty !
These passages in Revelation make it clear that Jesus is God. Remember it is Jesus in the NT who is Coming back to earth that every eye will see. It was Jesus who was pierced on the cross for our sins. John is clearly once again calling Jesus God!!!!!!! The Coming and the coming in the clouds never refers to the Father in the NT but always to Jesus.
Revelation 1:7-8
7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
8 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
We know from Revelation 1:8 that Alpha and Omega is the Almighty. So we can see that Christ is the Almighty
Revelation 1:17
17And when I saw Him, I fell at his feet as dead. And He laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I Am the first and the last:
We know from Revelation 1:17-18 that the first and the last is He that lives, was dead but is alive forevermore is Christ.
Revelation 2:8
"To the angel of the church in Smyrna write: These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again.
Revelation 22:12-13
12 "Behold, I Am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."
We know from Revelation 22:13 that the first and the last is the Alpha and Omega.
Revelation 22:16,20
16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."
20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I Am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
The immediate text clearly tells us that it was Jesus who was pierced and who is Coming in the clouds. This person coming in the clouds is God(Jesus-the Son of Man),
Daniel 7:13-14
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 "And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.
Matthew 24:30-31
30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Matthew 26:64
Jesus said to him, "You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."
1 Thessalonians 4:17-18
Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
Revelation 1:7-8
7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
8 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
Conclusion: So we can see that the One who comes/is coming in the NT always refers to Jesus the Son of Man and NEVER refers to the Father. Therefore we can conclude it is Jesus who is coming whom John calls God the Alpha and Omega. This is sound biblical exegesis based on the context of the passage as well as the principle established in both Testaments on the One who is Coming in/with the Clouds- The Son of Man not the Father !!!!!!
Isaiah 44:6
Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
'I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me.
Isaiah 48:12
"Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called;
I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.
hope this helps !!!
You need to learn to address your mistakes one at a time... Let's start with I am...
I already posted this but seems you missed it...
There has been quite a bit of discussion on John 8:58. What happened to this verse as to confuse so many? Let's start in Exodus.
KJV Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Now we shall read the same verse from the Greek Septuagint
Septuagint Exo 3:14 και ειπεν ο θεος προς μωυσην [εγω ειμι ο ων] και ειπεν ουτως ερεις τοις υιοις ισραηλ [ο ων] απεσταλκεν με προς υμας
Note the two separate Greek words used for 'am'
Concordant Literal Version Exo 3:14 Then Elohim spoke to Moses: I shall come to be just as I am coming to be. And He said: Thus shall you say to the sons of Israel, I-Shall-Come-to-Be has sent me to you.
Now when translated literally you get a whole different look. What happened to the other I am's?
The Hebrew Bible uses the word (hâyâh H1961) in the place of "Am" which is a verb meaning to exist, to be.
Check the Strongs' number.
Clearly Jesus did not say (εγω ειμι ο ων) nor did he state (ο ων), in John 8:58. Jesus spoke the words (εγω ειμι) just like other people in the bible who are not God. So just what was Jesus saying?
But what about the great "I Am him" statement of Jesus? Especially that classic one in John 8:58 where Jesus says, "Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was born I am"?
Surely here Jesus makes the same claim for himself that Jehovah God made back in Exodus 3 where the LORD says to Moses at the burning Bush "I Am Who I Am." Surely Jesus is claiming to be the I AM of the Old Testament as Trinitarian belief asserts?
Now here is something very obvious that they never told you in church. This expression from Jesus' lips "I am" (Greek ego eimi) occurs throughout the Gospel of John and in no text in John can it mean I AM, the God of the Old Testament.
Go back to John 4:25-26 for instance. The woman at the well said to Jesus, "I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ); when that one comes, he will declare all things to us." And Jesus said to her, "I who speak with you am he." You will notice that in most Bibles that word he is in italics. This means that the translators have correctly supplied a word in English that is not in the Greek but that nevertheless makes the intended sense quite clear. Here Jesus says to the woman - in the context of her question about the Messiah - that he is the Messiah, the Christ. "I who speak to you am he." In the Greek it reads ego eimi. Jesus simply says I am he, the Messiah. Definitely not “I am is the one speaking to you!”
In John 9 Jesus heals the blind man. Is this really the beggar who used to sit groping in the dark? Some people said, "Yes, it's him all right." Other said, "No, he just looks like him." But the beggar says, " ego eimi!" And the translators have no problem writing, "I am the one." So why aren't the translators consistent? Why not capitalize what this man says as I AM? Because it is clear that he is not claiming to be the God of the Old Testament. Saying "I am" (ego eimi) does not make somebody God in the Bible!
What Jesus is saying is simply “Before Abraham was born, I am he,” that is, "I am the Messiah."
Notice the context in John 8:56 where Jesus says, "Abraham rejoiced to see my day." By faith Abraham looked forward and saw the coming Messiah before he came in history. He believed the promise that God would send the Promised One. On the other hand these Jews did not believe that Jesus was their Messiah. They were claiming to be Abraham's descendents. Jesus said that this was impossible for they did not recognize him as their Messiah. But Jesus asserts that even before Abraham was born, he is the One who was always in God's plan. This Abraham believe and saw. The Messiah preexisted in God's plan and therefore in Abraham's believing mind, because he trusted the promise of God. Jesus positively did not say, before Abraham was, I was." Also, Jesus did not say, “Before Abraham was, I AM WHAT I AM."
The conclusion is inevitable. Jesus’ claim "Before Abraham was born, I am he" is the straightforward claim that he is the long promised one, the Messiah, the One in question. Jesus is the Savior in God's promise even before Abraham was born.
The Jewish leaders were very well aware of what Jesus was saying about himself! Jesus Was not claiming to be God but the Son of God as Shown in John 19:6. They give the very reason they wanted Him dead!
John 19:6 When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him. 7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.
Jesus, NEVER claimed to be God!
Study harder
Paul
I am the Alpha and the Omega.
This is referenced to Revelation 1:8. But Revelation 1:8 is talking about The Almighty, Revelation 22:12 is not using this title for Jesus but for God again. If we read Revelation 22:6 it tells us who the subject is, "The Lord, the God of prophetic spirits." Jesus does say in Revelation 1:17 that, "I am the first and the last." We shall examine what he meant by that statement.
Just because the same title is used to describe two people does not mean that those two people are one. As we can easily read… David called King Saul "My Lord " but that does not make Saul God (1 Samuel 24:8).
Israel’s Judges were called "saviors" but that does not make them and Jesus one person? (Nehemiah 9:27).
Jeroboam the Second of Israel is called "Israel’s savior," but that does not make him Jesus? (2 Kings 13:5)
Before we discuss these verses it would benefit us to understand John’s view of God.
Examples:
John 17:3
"Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."
Revelation 1:6
"Who (Jesus) has made us into a kingdom, priests for his God and Father."
John 20:17
"But go to my brothers and tell them, "I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."
In these verses John does not consider Jesus to be God in any way. For John, Jesus has a God. John also does not believe Jesus to be omniscient even after his resurrected state. Revelation 1:1 says:
"The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him."
Even after his resurrection Jesus is not omniscient. God still gives him revelations. Emphasis on God gives him. Now we will look at Revelation 1:17 with the correct background of John’s thinking, and not with a mind set on making Jesus God at all costs like you.
It is obvious that God Almighty is the first and the last, but how is Jesus also the first and the last? Jesus is the first because he is the firstborn in two ways. One, he is the firstborn of God, which to the Jews implied that as the firstborn you are entitled to be the heir of your father, which Jesus is (Hebrews 1:2). Also according to Strong’s Greek Dictionary it means foremost in importance, which Jesus certainly is. This also corresponds with Psalms 89: 28 - 30.
Secondly, Jesus is the firstborn from the dead to be resurrected, which is what Jesus is speaking about in Revelation 1:18 which follows his statement that he is the first and the last. It reads:
"I am the first and the last, the one who lives. Once I was dead, but now I am alive forever."
This is also is in agreement with Colossians 1: 18. Jesus is the last because when he comes again it will be the end of the present age, and he will be in effect the last one to enter this world while it is still under the influence of Satan. He will then usher in the Messianic kingdom of God
Why is Jesus alive???
Act 3:26 "For you first, God raised up His Servant and sent Him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways."
You can let go of your spiritual ankles now
Paul
I sorry..... Your confusing your Lords.....
Pay attention.... Your not going to hear this in your traditions of men .... Church
Time to learn about your LORD....
Psa 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet."
Psalms 110:1 is a unusual verse. It is referred to in the New Testament 23 times and is thus quoted much more often than any other verse from the Old Testament. It’s importance must not be overlooked. It is a psalm that tells us the relationship between God and Jesus.
Psalms 110:1 is a divine utterance although poorly translated if your version leaves out the original word "oracle". It is “the oracle of Yahweh” (the One God of the Hebrew Bible, of Judaism and New Testament Christianity) to David's lord who is the Messiah, spoken of here 1000 years before he came into existence in the womb of the Virgin Mary.
I want to bring attention to the fact that David's lord is not David's Lord. There should be no capital on the word "lord." The Revised Version of the Bible (1881) corrected the misleading error of other translations which put (and still wrongly put) a capitol L on lord in that verse.
He is not Lord God, because the word in the inspired text is not the word for Deity, but the word for human superior- a human lord, not a Lord who is himself God, but a lord who is the supremely exalted, unique agent of the one God.
The Hebrew word for the status of the son of God and Psalms 110:1 is adoni. This word occurs 195 times in the Hebrew Bible and never refers to God. When God is described as "the Lord" (capital L) a different word, Adonai, appears. Thus the Bible makes a careful distinction between God and man. God is the Lord God (Adonai), or when his personal name is used, Yahweh, and Jesus is his unique, sinless, virginally conceived human son (adoni, my lord, Luke 1:43; 2:11). Adonai is found 449 times in the Old Testament and distinguishes the One God from all others. Adonai is not the word describing the son of God, Jesus, and Psalms 110:1. adoni appears 195 times and refers only to a human (or occasionally an angelic) lord, that is, someone who is not God. This should cut through a lot of complicated post Biblical argumentation and create a making which in subtle ways that secures the simple and most basic Biblical truth, that God is a single person and that the Messiah is the second Adam, "the Man Messiah" (1 Tim. 2:5).
Let's have a look at a few Old Testament verses that show us the clear distinction alluded to here. In Genesis 15:2, Abraham prays to God and says, "O LORD, God [Adonai Yahweh], what will you give me, since I am childless?" In another prayer Abraham's servant addresses God: "O LORD, God of my lord Abraham, please grant me success today" (Gen. 24:12). The second word for "my lord" here is adoni which according to any standard Hebrew lexicon means "Lord," "Master," or "owner." Another example is found in David's speech to his men after he had cut off the hem of King Saul's robe and his conscience bothered him: "So he said to his men, far be it from me because of the Lord [here the word is Yahweh, Lord God] that I should do this thing to my lord [adoni].”
The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, page 157. states… "The form Adoni (‘my lord’), a royal title (Sam. 29:8), is to be carefully distinguished from the divine title Adonai (‘Lord’) used of Yahweh. Adonai the special plural form [the divine title] distinguishes it from adoni [with short vowel] = ‘my lords.’” Hastings Dictionary of the Bible, vol. 3, page 137. States… “lord in the Old Testament is used to translate Adonai when applied to the Divine Being. The [Hebrew] word… has a suffix [with a special pointing] presumably for the sake of distinction... between divine and human appellative.” Wigram, The Englishman’s Hebrew and Chaldee Concordance of the Old Testament, p. 22. states…
“The form ‘to my lord,’ I’adoni, is never used in the Old Testament as a divine reference… the general excepted fact is that the masoretic pointing distinguishes divine reference (adonai) from human references (adoni).”
“The Hebrew Adonai exclusively denotes the God of Israel. It is attested about 450 times in the Old Testament…Adoni [is] addressed to human beings (Gen 44:7; Num 32:25; 2 Kings 2:19, etc.). We have to assume that the word Adonai received it’s special form to distinguish it from the secular use of adon [i.e. adoni]. The reason why [God is addressed] as Adonai [with long vowel] instead of the normal adon, adoni or adonai [short vowel] may have been to distinguish Yahweh from other gods and from other human Lord's.” from
Dictionary of deities and demons in the Bible, p. 531.
If David the Psalmist had expected the Messiah to be the Lord God he would not have used "my lord" (adoni), but the term used exclusively for the one God, Jehovah- Adonai. Unfortunately, though, many English translations which faithfully preserved this distinction elsewhere capitalize the second "lord" only in Psalms 110:1. This gives a misleading impression that the word is a divine title.
Occasionally, it will be objected that this distinction between Adonai and adoni was a late addition to the Hebrew text by the Mesorites around 600 to 700 AD and therefore is not reliable. This objection needs to be considered in the light of the fact that the Hebrew translators of the Septuagint (the LXX) around 250 B.C. recognize and carefully maintained this Hebrew distinction in their work. They never translated the second “lord” of Psalm 110:1 (“my lord,” kyrios mou) to mean the Deity. The first LORD of Psalm 110:1 (the LORD, Ho Kyrios) they always reserve for the one God, Jehovah.
Both the Pharisees and Jesus knew that this inspired verse was crucial in the understanding of the identity of the promised Messiah. Jesus quoted it to show the Messiah would be both the son (descendent) of King David and David's “lord” (see Matt. 22:41-46; Mark 12:35-37; Luke 20:41-44). This key verse, then, quoted more than any other in the New Testament, authorizes the title "lord" for Jesus. Failure to understand this distinction has led to the erroneous idea that whenever the New Testament calls Jesus "Lord" it means he is the Lord God of the Old Testament.
Study for yourself don't let others tell you what and how to believe...
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
You're claiming things contrary to the explicit teachings of Jesus! Not so the son as Jesus is not sovereign. Again, the Lord's Prayer:
- Our Father, who art in heaven (not Jesus on Earth).
- Hallowed be thy name (Thy name detailed in Joshua).
- Thy will be done (not the will of his son).
This is why Scripture is explicit in 1 Cor 8:6 that for us there is one God, the Father. There can be no confusion on this point, no double or triple or infinite dubbing for our God is a jealous God.
Regarding the lordship of Jesus, God gave Jesus his authority as Acts 2:36 explicitly states; it is God who made Jesus both Lord and Messiah. NOTE: It does not say "the Father" did this but God, in his wholeness made Jesus both lord and Messiah. v 5:31 explicitly states that God exalted this man at this right hand (not this god with a capital or lowercase "g"; the use of the word "man" is emphatic, to emphasis who it is that God exalted).
Regarding the many lords of the Bible, in which Jesus is one; a lord is one who loyalty is due. Yet, others continue to serve other lords (as well as other gods). This is why 1 Cor 8:6 states "for us" there is one Lord, Yeshua the Messiah. (The battle of good and evil could be summed up that although God gave Jesus all authority, not all are loyal yet to the Divine King).
Jesus is only the servant of God as Acts 3:13 explicitly states. (Not a servant of "the Father."). Does it make sense to you to use language such that one is a servant of themselves? Hope this helps and look forward to your thoughtful answers to my 3 questions.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
In today's devotional reading of the Complete Jewish Bible, I came across the end of Joshua, of God's people's tendency to worship other gods. The name of our God is Adonai (not Yeshua). The Bible says about 7,000 times the name of God is Adonai (not "are"which would indicate plural). It's a bit hard to miss. (Other translations use the capital LORD, to distinguish from the many lowercase lords in Scripture, of which there are dozens).
Joshua 22:34
34 The descendants of Re’uven and Gad called the altar “‘Ed [a witness]” between us that Adonai is God.
oshua 23:5
23:5 Adonai your God will thrust them out ahead of you and drive them out of your sight, so that you will possess their land, as Adonai your God told you.
7 Then you won’t become like those nations remaining among you. Don’t even mention the name of their gods, let alone have people swear by them, serve them or worship them;8 but cling to Adonai your God, as you have done to this day.
11 “Therefore take great care to love Adonai your God.
12 Otherwise, if you retreat and cling to the remnant of these other nations remaining among you, if you make marriages with them and have children with them and they with you, 13 know for certain that Adonai your God will stop driving out these nations from your sight. Instead, they will become a snare and a trap for you, whipping your sides and pricking your eyes, until you perish from this good land which Adonai your God has given you.
14 “Today I am going the way of all the earth. Therefore consider in all your heart and being that not one of all the good things Adonai your God said concerning you has failed to happen; it has all come to pass; nothing of it has failed. 15 Nevertheless, just as all the good things Adonai your God promised you have come upon you, likewise Adonai will bring upon you all the bad things too, until he has destroyed you from this good land which Adonai your God has given you. 16 When you violate the covenant of Adonai your God, which he ordered you to obey, and go and serve other gods and worship them, then the anger of Adonai will blaze up against you; and you will perish quickly from the good land which he has given you!”
Joshua 24
2“This is what Adonai the God of Isra’el says: ‘In antiquity your ancestors lived on the other side of the [Euphrates] River — Terach the father of Avraham and Nachor — and they served other gods.
15 As for me and my household, we will serve Adonai!”
18 and it was Adonai who drove out from ahead of us all the peoples, the Emori living in the land. Therefore we too will serve Adonai, for he is our God.”
Joshua 22:34
34 The descendants of Re’uven and Gad called the altar “‘Ed [a witness]” between us that Adonai is God.
oshua 23:5
23:5 Adonai your God will thrust them out ahead of you and drive them out of your sight, so that you will possess their land, as Adonai your God told you.
7 Then you won’t become like those nations remaining among you. Don’t even mention the name of their gods, let alone have people swear by them, serve them or worship them;8 but cling to Adonai your God, as you have done to this day.
11 “Therefore take great care to love Adonai your God.
12 Otherwise, if you retreat and cling to the remnant of these other nations remaining among you, if you make marriages with them and have children with them and they with you, 13 know for certain that Adonai your God will stop driving out these nations from your sight. Instead, they will become a snare and a trap for you, whipping your sides and pricking your eyes, until you perish from this good land which Adonai your God has given you.
14 “Today I am going the way of all the earth. Therefore consider in all your heart and being that not one of all the good things Adonai your God said concerning you has failed to happen; it has all come to pass; nothing of it has failed. 15 Nevertheless, just as all the good things Adonai your God promised you have come upon you, likewise Adonai will bring upon you all the bad things too, until he has destroyed you from this good land which Adonai your God has given you. 16 When you violate the covenant of Adonai your God, which he ordered you to obey, and go and serve other gods and worship them, then the anger of Adonai will blaze up against you; and you will perish quickly from the good land which he has given you!”
Joshua 24
2“This is what Adonai the God of Isra’el says: ‘In antiquity your ancestors lived on the other side of the [Euphrates] River — Terach the father of Avraham and Nachor — and they served other gods.
15 As for me and my household, we will serve Adonai!”
18 and it was Adonai who drove out from ahead of us all the peoples, the Emori living in the land. Therefore we too will serve Adonai, for he is our God.”
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
Scripture trumps you once again.
1 Cor 8:6
and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
Eph 4:5
one Lord, one faith, one baptism
Rom 10:9-13
1 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
1 Cor 1:2
To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:
Jude 4
and deny our only Sovereign and Lord, Jesus Christ.
Your initial statement is misleading and incorrect. And then your typical lists of things, either of verses, or other comparisons of the Father and the son in your posts continue to reveal no clarification, meaning or understanding that you know what what you are saying, and in this case, what each of the 34 individual points really mean.
Can you do that, add a commentary on each point to let us know that you are attempting to let us know you understand what you wrote? And use context that you are so quick to point out to your audience that you say is 'king' and it usually is the case..
So let me restart you off then....
So you initial statement should be accurate and truthful if you are writing about matters of holiness and God.
How about writing something like: the Father shared(s) some of his attributes with his son. Now this way you can support it with scripture and context. Else you will have to again, try and tap dance your way out of even stating what you just wrote, and with some difficulty.
Great weekend...APAK
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
We know that no Apostle or OT Prophet can be compared to God and share those 34 qualities or attributes right ?
Ask yourself why its only Christ who can be compared to God and share those same qualities and attributes that are Gods alone ?
You are still avoiding my queries once again.
Still, let me answer your question again and with a different take, one that aligns with scripture, a very important difference thus is shown in my answer.
Yes, Christ is easily compared to his Father God because he was created for this purpose, number one. He was given many of the attributes and characteristics humanly possible that he can/could understand and function with that were necessary for the completion of his mission on earth and now in heaven. Many of the prophets also possessed the same attributes and characteristics of God the Father, although on a temporary basis. As it depended on the function and what God's purpose was with these anointed ones.
Now as you know scripture says that the Son of God is the perfect image or mosaic of his Father in many ways and given many of his attributes although not his actual core attributes such as his own spirit and word or mind/expression. God is not in the business of creating a species of himself if you get my drift....like spawning new gods of his DNA....
So at this point let me make it clear to you that the Son can easily be compared to his Father, his God, as he was given selective attributes important to his Father. So they are NOT all the same, the son does NOT have all the attributes of his Father and this is logical and scriptural. Now do not get confused with the phrases such as the fullness of God etc. This means something else completely...for another topic of discussion.
The Father is omnipotent and all knowing and almighty the Son does not have these core attributes of his Father God.
As I just said the Father's own personality and spirit is not up for spiritual medical transplant into a human being as another species of himself.
The Father's word or mind and expression is also not up for calving up or seeding into any of his creations. It is a primal makeup of his personality. Christ had a human mind whilst on earth and still has a human mind driven and possessed by his Father today. The Son is still the word of his Father God today as he was when he was on earth. Yes, the word of his Father dwells in his Son . The Son thus shared(s) his Father's word although it is NOT the Son's word or mind. He is just sharing his Father God's word or expression to perform miraculous deed for example. I hope this critical point is very clear.
So the Father shares his word with him although the human son being the exact same mind or expression or word is not possible. They are not of the same substance for sure. One is the Creator the other the created being. They are two distinct beings and personalities.
Even a genuine believer possesses some of the same traits and attributes of God as the Son has, in a less powerful capacity and more sedated fashion whilst in this form of human flesh....and we are not of the same substance as the Father God, although we are of the same substance as the Son - human, not a deity. We are human beings with human personalities, we are sons of man. The Father God is alone, one unique, the sole creator, and his Son is the closest human person to him in thought and action. And now he is the saviour of mankind indeed. Made possible only by his Father, his God and ours.
I should generate up a thread on 'the Creed that matters' about the original untampered Shema of the OT. It need to be added into this discussion for sure. All other Creeds are worthless in comparison and should not be entertained or believed in. These Creeds were the work of religious philosophers who thought they could reinvent Christianity, even reinvent a new YHWH for themselves.
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