Free Love Issue Is Very Important To Me!

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aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
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aspen, are you aware that the first epistle of John (in particular) is the handbook which answers to Paul's declamation - 2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? A person who knows God is already in a process of coming to agreement with Him on EVERYTHING. One of the evidences of this is, that they understand 1 Corinthians 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. In the other thread, you asserted your alignment with the Greek view, that the gospel is foolishness, clearly stating that you reject a significant part of the written word of God.

I have looked into the agreement between the written word of God and the words of Jesus, and there is no disagreement. If God is true, and you are relying on Him for your eternal salvation (as this is what Christians do) then if He is trustworthy with your soul at all, His word is trustworthy. Yes?

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Just for the record, I get my doctrine from scripture, and am frequently in disagreement with popular so-called Christian doctrine.

Well, I think it is important for you to know - I am not afraid to be wrong about doctrine. Like I have said before, if I am wrong, I am sure Jesus and I will have a good laugh about it someday. In the meantime, my purpose is to love everyone and always fall on the side of mercy.

Also, I think most Christians believe their ideas about Christianity are slightly more correct than other Christians....it is all head knowledge. Posting opinions on this board or even scripture have nothing to do with living the Christian life - it is just a hobby. Living for Christ means to love others in our everyday lives.
 

Strat

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Mar 25, 2012
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Where did I quote you?

Your second statement is so plastic I can barely manage to address it. First, I do not recognize any homosexual special interest groups in church - their message falls on deaf ears - and I am sure your church does not either. So if people you consider to be real Christians do not even recognize homosexual groups in church, why address them at all? Second, there are tons of special interest groups in church that Christians dislike as much, but never talk about - 'people for women in the clergy', 'catholics who want clergy to marry', 'people who want women elders/deacons', 'people who want new age ideas included in church activities' and on and on and on.....



And most of the same churches that support homosexuals also support many other ideas that would disqualify them in your mind as being Christian in the first place.

Such as ? what disqualifies anyone is hersey and false teaching and the support and finance of sin.

Well, I think it is important for you to know - I am not afraid to be wrong about doctrine. Like I have said before, if I am wrong, I am sure Jesus and I will have a good laugh about it someday. In the meantime, my purpose is to love everyone and always fall on the side of mercy.

Also, I think most Christians believe their ideas about Christianity are slightly more correct than other Christians....it is all head knowledge. Posting opinions on this board or even scripture have nothing to do with living the Christian life - it is just a hobby. Living for Christ means to love others in our everyday lives.

Another meaningless liberal rant,no right,no wrong all along the wide and easy path...only love with no scripture to support it....empty headed nonsense.

"I am not afraid to wrong about doctrine" translation....truth means nothing and the path to heaven can be just as easily paved with lies as the truth.

aspen, are you aware that the first epistle of John (in particular) is the handbook which answers to Paul's declamation - 2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? A person who knows God is already in a process of coming to agreement with Him on EVERYTHING. One of the evidences of this is, that they understand 1 Corinthians 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. In the other thread, you asserted your alignment with the Greek view, that the gospel is foolishness, clearly stating that you reject a significant part of the written word of God.

I have looked into the agreement between the written word of God and the words of Jesus, and there is no disagreement. If God is true, and you are relying on Him for your eternal salvation (as this is what Christians do) then if He is trustworthy with your soul at all, His word is trustworthy. Yes?

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Just for the record, I get my doctrine from scripture, and am frequently in disagreement with popular so-called Christian doctrine.

Aspen thinks he can be against sin in the church and be all for it in the culture....this is what he calls "love"
 

aspen

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Such as ? what disqualifies anyone is hersey and false teaching and the support and finance of sin.

Actually, God cares much more about the condition of the heart than the percentage of correct doctrine a person happens to possess. We all have mistakes in our doctrine - what we need to be concerned about is how we treat other people. The greatest heresy is treating other people like garbage - using sarcasm, name calling, and belittling them. Christ died for the people that you are treating badly, Strat - that is heresy.

People know we are not true Christians when we try to manipulate them or guilt them into the Kingdom or trap them into some legalistic system that values doctrinal correctness over people - also when we treat them like a possession 'ha! got another one!'

Another meaningless liberal rant,no right,no wrong all along the wide and easy path...only love with no scripture to support it....empty headed nonsense.

Another meaningless label, no heart, no love - all along the legalistic path that leads to death.....with no spirit of the law to support it - pompous, gonging, bravado.

"I am not afraid to wrong about doctrine" translation....truth means nothing and the path to heaven can be just as easily paved with lies as the truth.

Finally! Someone is willing to translate my English into English for me! What a treat!

God judges the heart - there is no theology exam required to get into heaven. I think this is a hard concept for you because in order to consider it, you might have to give up being RIGHT all the time.......what happens if, instead of forcing doctrine down people's throats and rudely correcting everyone on their doctrinal errors in the most demeaning manner possible online, you had to give up your pride and become vulnerable enough to accept God's love and then return it, while spending the rest of you life loving the people He died for? Come on Strat - you can do it!

Aspen thinks he can be against sin in the church and be all for it in the culture....this is what he calls "love"

I was wondering what I was thinking! Actually, I call that reality. Sinners are going to sin. Legislating against it when it is not a direct threat on the safety of our population is a waste of time. And just like Judas who pretended to care about the poor, you are pretending to care about the unbelievers in America. If you really cared you would address the widest margin between the supper rich in this country and the poor. But, unfortunately, you heart lives in the land of FAIR and RIGHT - somehow, I cannot help but think that Hell operates in the same manner.
 

dragonfly

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Hello again, aspen,

Christianity is a noun derived from the derogatory term 'Christian' which was used first in Antioch to tag disciples of Jesus Christ. His disciples (students) listened intently to His teaching, and when asked what they thought of Him, one of them declared, 'Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.' John 6:68 On another occasion, the same disciple - Peter - had the temerity to rebuke the Creator of the universe, Matthew 16:22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. 23 But he [Jesus] turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. 26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Note: 'reward' means 'just desserts'. It isn't necessarily a prize every time. It might be a punishment, if that is more appropriate. The same Jesus also referred both to Noah, and the flood.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. This historical fact is important because Jesus likens His returning to it.

How can you say so emphatically, 'Don't think to hard about the Flood or the Ark - you might entertain some doubt - which we all know is the Devil trying to deceive us! It doesn't matter that the story is absolutely impossible without a complete suspension of all natural law and a magic Ark, which can contain all varieties of animals and the food it takes to feed them - we must deny reason and take on God's understanding. Sorry, God cannot promote and demand confusion AND be a God of reason - just like God cannot be GOOD and MORAL AND live by His own rules - He either is GOOD or He is not. I choose to believe that God is GOOD and REASONABLE, therefore He has to live by His own rules and reason.' (Post #46, http://www.christian...ys/page__st__30) ???

God didn't suspend any natural laws. He had told Adam that if He ate a certain fruit, he would die. Adam ate the fruit, and sin entered the world, bringing death as a consequence. (Romans 5) In Adam's loins, the whole human race died. Eternal death is not about individual sins - although it is to the individual sinner - it is about the outworking of Adam's sin upon all his descendants. In His mercy, God sent His own Son as one of Adam's descendants, to die instead of us.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. But the outworking of Adam's sin upon all his descendants was intolerable to God.

Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually. {every...: or, the whole imagination: the Hebrew word signifieth not only the imagination, but also the purposes and desires} {continually: Heb. every day} 6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. {both...: Heb. from man unto beast} 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. And to cut a long story short, Noah did what God told him to do, and as a result, you and I are here today discussing his obedience.

As you're probably aware, there had never been any rain before Noah and his family went into the Ark and God shut him in. Genesis 7:16 Incidentally, there are a number of interventions by God in the affairs of mankind, like this, and easy to miss in the narrative unless you're watching for them. Other examples are many, for instance, in Exodus 14:19 And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them: 20 And it came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel; and it was a cloud and darkness [to them], but it gave light by night [to these]: so that the one came not near the other all the night....... 24 And it came to pass, that in the morning watch the LORD looked unto the host of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and of the cloud, and troubled the host of the Egyptians, 25 And took off their chariot wheels, that they drave them heavily: so that the Egyptians said, Let us flee from the face of Israel; for the LORD fighteth for them against the Egyptians.

As a man who wants evidence, the fact that these happened in the presence of hundreds of thousands of people, ought to impress you. Considering those people were eyewitnesses to bitter water being made sweet, water coming out of a rock when it was spoken to, clothes and shoes not wearing out for forty years, and manna every day, it is astonishing that they still refused to trust God, and He let them die not having entered the land to which they had travelled. Amos 5:25 Have ye offered unto me sacrifices and offerings in the wilderness forty years, O house of Israel? 26 But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star of your god, which ye made to yourselves. 27 Therefore will I cause you to go into captivity beyond Damascus, saith the LORD, whose name [is] The God of hosts.

The same principle exists spiritually today. Hmmm. God was looking for evidence in Israel, that they trusted Him. For Him to believe that they did, He expected them to give up the idols they had brought out with them, and to stop paying Him lipservice. He wanted hearts and minds. God is still looking for evidence that His people (Christians) trust Him with everything, all the time. If not, they will go into spiritual captivity, instead of becoming established in His exclusive truth.

'I think most Christians believe their ideas about Christianity are slightly more correct than other Christians....'

But some Christians' Christianity is more correct than others! You claim that you would inform a homosexual practitioner in church, who was ignorant of the requirement to cease from this particular sin; this would be a demonstration of your being more 'correct' than him. How can that be a problem to Christians who are seeking to love and obey their Master Jesus Christ? Surely they are bound to need to change. The renewing of the mind necessitates change. And abundance of the heart of which the mouth speaketh, ought to change.

'it is all head knowledge'. That's a step closer than someone who doesn't know what the Bible actually says.

'Posting opinions on this board or even scripture have nothing to do with living the Christian life - '

I beg to differ. Posting on this board (or any other Christian board), can be a way of fulfilling God's calling on one's life.

'it is just a hobby' You might have the freedom to treat the privilege of owning a Bible and a computer as 'a hobby', and that's been you and the Lord, but I don't see how God could view it that way. Luke 19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. 13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.

Romans 2:1 - 3;

1 Corinthians 11:31;

Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth.
Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
 

Strat

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Mar 25, 2012
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The fact that you think sin is no threat to society yet one man having more money than another is tells it all.....thanks for once again revealing where your heart is.
 
Jul 6, 2011
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Aspen2,
Actually, God cares much more about the condition of the heart than the percentage of correct doctrine a person happens to possess
But of the person is denying sound doctrine then their heart is not in good condition.
We all have mistakes in our doctrine –
According to the scripture, only on disputable matters, otherwise no, the scripture commends sound doctrine. How could it ever be sound if no-one could agree on it because all had mistakes?
what we need to be concerned about is how we treat other people.
But one needs sound doctrine for that.
The greatest heresy is treating other people like garbage - using sarcasm, name calling, and belittling them.
Yes but that is sound doctrine. Even common sense therefore should indicate Strat is correct therefore, because heresy and false teaching is that which is contrary to sound doctrine.
 

And of course God did not create people to die in sin, but wishes none should persish and all come to repentance. Thats God's desire. One cannot say that doesnt apply to non-believers as you have been saying, because that then implies God doesnt intend all should be saved.
 

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
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BMS said,

But of the person is denying sound doctrine then their heart is not in good condition.

Really? So we need doctrine to be saved?

According to the scripture, only on disputable matters, otherwise no, the scripture commends sound doctrine. How could it ever be sound if no-one could agree on it because all had mistakes?

I didn't say that the Bible has mistakes - I said that our doctrine (our interpretation and application of the Bible) contains mistakes and they are much more than 'in house' disagreements - our denominations and cults based on Christian doctrine, prove that.

But one needs sound doctrine for that.

Not really, Mormons and other cults teach this principle.

Yes but that is sound doctrine. Even common sense therefore should indicate Strat is correct therefore, because heresy and false teaching is that which is contrary to sound doctrine.

Doctrine does not save us. Only transformation of the heart and mind saves us. The fact that I am having to hammer this point into your head shows that sound doctrine contains errors and incomplete information about Christianity. All the literal interpretation of the Flood and the Creation story is not going to transform your heart and mind - only God can do it. Too much focus on the sign post (Bible) may distract you from your goal (loving God, neighbor).
 
And of course God did not create people to die in sin, but wishes none should persish and all come to repentance. Thats God's desire. One cannot say that doesnt apply to non-believers as you have been saying, because that then implies God doesnt intend all should be saved.

No - it clearly states that demanding people to follow God's laws who do not believe or follow God is not going to save them.
 
Jul 6, 2011
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Aspen2,
Really? So we need doctrine to be saved?
You are kidding right? I didn’t say that. We need Christ but if ones doctrine says we don’t need Christ as the scripture reveals, then their heart is not in a good condition. Right? You know, Romans 10-12 we need to hear the message to believe.

According to the scripture, only on disputable matters, otherwise no, the scripture commends sound doctrine. How could it ever be sound if no-one could agree on it because all had mistakes?

I didn't say that the Bible has mistakes –
I didnt say you did.
I said that our doctrine (our interpretation and application of the Bible) contains mistakes and they are much more than 'in house' disagreements - our denominations and cults based on Christian doctrine, prove that.
No, our doctrine doesn’t contain mistakes if it is based on scripture, it may however contain different interpretations, but interpretation based on scripture is sound doctrine, it just means it is a disputable matter. Dont get sound doctrine confused with false teaching which is that which is contrary to all scripture

Doctrine does not save us.
i thought we had already agreed that more than once.
All the literal interpretation of the Flood and the Creation story is not going to transform your heart and mind - only God can do it.
No that is assuming the account is not literally true when there is no way one can know. As with all the Bible it is primarily a spiritual message, whether the account is true literally is secondary to that, but then how can all things be possible for God if what is claimed if ruled out by your intellect and reasoning?
And of course God did not create people to die in sin, but wishes none should persish and all come to repentance. Thats God's desire. One cannot say that doesnt apply to non-believers as you have been saying, because that then implies God doesnt intend all should be saved.

No - it clearly states that demanding people to follow God's laws who do not believe or follow God is not going to save them.
Who said anything about demanding? Are you talking to me or yourself? Why did you say God’s law when the scripture I quoted says repentance? Dont you like using the word repentance? What the scripture says is God wishes that none should perish but all come to repentance, the point being that God wishes all people, thats believers and non-believers to come to repentance.
 

Strat

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Mar 25, 2012
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Aspen2,
You are kidding right? I didn’t say that. We need Christ but if ones doctrine says we don’t need Christ as the scripture reveals, then their heart is not in a good condition. Right? You know, Romans 10-12 we need to hear the message to believe.

According to the scripture, only on disputable matters, otherwise no, the scripture commends sound doctrine. How could it ever be sound if no-one could agree on it because all had mistakes?

I didnt say you did.
No, our doctrine doesn’t contain mistakes if it is based on scripture, it may however contain different interpretations, but interpretation based on scripture is sound doctrine, it just means it is a disputable matter. Dont get sound doctrine confused with false teaching which is that which is contrary to all scripture

i thought we had already agreed that more than once.
No that is assuming the account is not literally true when there is no way one can know. As with all the Bible it is primarily a spiritual message, whether the account is true literally is secondary to that, but then how can all things be possible for God if what is claimed if ruled out by your intellect and reasoning?
And of course God did not create people to die in sin, but wishes none should persish and all come to repentance. Thats God's desire. One cannot say that doesnt apply to non-believers as you have been saying, because that then implies God doesnt intend all should be saved.

Who said anything about demanding? Are you talking to me or yourself? Why did you say God’s law when the scripture I quoted says repentance? Dont you like using the word repentance? What the scripture says is God wishes that none should perish but all come to repentance, the point being that God wishes all people, thats believers and non-believers to come to repentance.


Aspen seems to think if we make sin and living a sinful life easy and pleasant by removing as many of the consequences as we can people will turn from it...doesn't make much sense....the bible says that the way of the transgressor is hard and we reap what we sow....God has put consequences in place to guide us in his direction,as a modern liberal Aspen says all that needs to go and we will all ride the long,wide limo of love to heaven.
 

aspen

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Aspen2,
But of the person is denying sound doctrine then their heart is not in good condition.
According to the scripture, only on disputable matters, otherwise no, the scripture commends sound doctrine. How could it ever be sound if no-one could agree on it because all had mistakes?
But one needs sound doctrine for that.
Yes but that is sound doctrine. Even common sense therefore should indicate Strat is correct therefore, because heresy and false teaching is that which is contrary to sound doctrine.
 

And of course God did not create people to die in sin, but wishes none should persish and all come to repentance. Thats God's desire. One cannot say that doesnt apply to non-believers as you have been saying, because that then implies God doesnt intend all should be saved.

It is starting to look like we are agreeing more than we are disagreeing now.

Perhaps the reason we are missing each other is because I am responding to three people - Strat, Dragonfly, and you

All I am saying is:

1. It is not a requirement for Christians to believe in a literal Flood account or a literal Creation account. If they do fine, but it can be a unnecessary stumbling block for some people.

2. Christians are not called to legislate God's laws for nonbelievers.

3. Sinners sin - we should expect nothing more from them before Christ has converted their hearts and minds.

4. Love (focus on God) and repentance (turning from self towards a focus on God) are the same thing.

5. Sin is self love or Pride.

Aspen seems to think if we make sin and living a sinful life easy and pleasant by removing as many of the consequences as we can people will turn from it...doesn't make much sense....the bible says that the way of the transgressor is hard and we reap what we sow....God has put consequences in place to guide us in his direction,as a modern liberal Aspen says all that needs to go and we will all ride the long,wide limo of love to heaven.

Actually, Aspen thinks that Christians are not in charge of dealing out consequences to nonbelievers.
 

dragonfly

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Apr 19, 2012
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Christians are not in charge of dealing out consequences to nonbelievers.

But God has put Christians in charge of informing-warning non-believers of consequences, and inviting-exhorting them to escape from the wrath to come.
 

Strat

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Mar 25, 2012
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It is starting to look like we are agreeing more than we are disagreeing now.

Perhaps the reason we are missing each other is because I am responding to three people - Strat, Dragonfly, and you

All I am saying is:

1. It is not a requirement for Christians to believe in a literal Flood account or a literal Creation account. If they do fine, but it can be a unnecessary stumbling block for some people.

2. Christians are not called to legislate God's laws for nonbelievers.

3. Sinners sin - we should expect nothing more from them before Christ has converted their hearts and minds.

4. Love (focus on God) and repentance (turning from self towards a focus on God) are the same thing.

5. Sin is self love or Pride.



Actually, Aspen thinks that Christians are not in charge of dealing out consequences to nonbelievers.

Actually Aspen is in favor of taxing christians and everybody else into oblivion to do away with those consequences altogether in the pseudo christian godless welfare state...consequences are the natural result of bad behviour otherwise known as sin....Aspen doesn't belive in sin...only love.

Sinners sin ? yes they do and if they suffer enough for it they sometimes turn from it...worked for me.
 
Jul 6, 2011
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Apsen2,
1. It is not a requirement for Christians to believe in a literal Flood account or a literal Creation account. If they do fine, but it can be a unnecessary stumbling block for some people.
That is absolutely correct, but it is a requirement for Christians not to deny it as a literal flood or a literal creation as you have been doing.

2. Christians are not called to legislate God's laws for nonbelievers.
Yes they are in the respect that the gospel calls people to God’s law and if democracy give citizens the right to vote for the legislation we are entitled to vote for God’s law. I am not ashamed of the gospel.
3. Sinners sin - we should expect nothing more from them before Christ has converted their hearts and minds.
Agreed.

4. Love (focus on God) and repentance (turning from self towards a focus on God) are the same thing.
I would say repentance is part of loving God.
5. Sin is self love or Pride.
yes it is, and thinking one knows better than God is too. Which means His Biblical testimony. So saying the Biblical testimony is merely from primitive worldviews is pride and self love.

aspen2,
At the moment in the UK we have polls showing that up to 50% of those who identify as homosexual do not think the govenrment need to pass laws making same sex relations as marriage. That is my experience as well. Other polls show more than half of the UK population think the government should. On that basis this isnt about the rights of homosexuals at all really, nor what homsoexuals want, but about a God hating liberal secular totalitarianism. Yes I vote against such a thing, and yes a Christian theocracy would of course be better than that.
 

Strat

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Mar 25, 2012
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Apsen2,
That is absolutely correct, but it is a requirement for Christians not to deny it as a literal flood or a literal creation as you have been doing.

Yes they are in the respect that the gospel calls people to God’s law and if democracy give citizens the right to vote for the legislation we are entitled to vote for God’s law. I am not ashamed of the gospel.
Agreed.

I would say repentance is part of loving God.
yes it is, and thinking one knows better than God is too. Which means His Biblical testimony. So saying the Biblical testimony is merely from primitive worldviews is pride and self love.

aspen2,
At the moment in the UK we have polls showing that up to 50% of those who identify as homosexual do not think the govenrment need to pass laws making same sex relations as marriage. That is my experience as well. Other polls show more than half of the UK population think the government should. On that basis this isnt about the rights of homosexuals at all really, nor what homsoexuals want, but about a God hating liberal secular totalitarianism. Yes I vote against such a thing, and yes a Christian theocracy would of course be better than that.

Strange is it not that a "Christian" would prefer God hating secular totalitarianism to a Christian theocracy.....go figure...must be all that..."love"
 
Jul 6, 2011
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Strat,

Well quite. This is a very good example of deception, notice he cited the Middle East as an example of theocracy so it makes people think of Islamic theocrcies and thus reject Christianity oin that basis.
 

Strat

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Mar 25, 2012
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Strat,

Well quite. This is a very good example of deception, notice he cited the Middle East as an example of theocracy so it makes people think of Islamic theocrcies and thus reject Christianity oin that basis.

I prefer to call it willful rejection ......in our society "deception" carries with it a hint of innocence....no innocence here.....the Bible is clear and the only ones who can lay any claim innocence are the ones who don't read it which of course makes them guilty of that...its all about people's emotions and judging God by their emotions and creating a god that is subject to their emotions and wickedness.
 

dragonfly

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Apr 19, 2012
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Hi aspen,

1. It is not a requirement for Christians to believe in a literal Flood account or a literal Creation account. If they do fine, but it can be a unnecessary stumbling block for some people.

'It is not a requirement for Christians to believe in a literal Flood account'.

The problem with this statement is many-fold. The most glaring one being that Jesus Christ Himself, THE Word of God, referred to the flood.

Matthew 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

1 Timothy 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

This man - Jesus Christ - on whom you depend for your salvation, declared Himself to be the I AM whose day Abraham rejoiced to see; the Way, the Truth, the Life; the Light of the world, greater than Jacob, greater than Solomon, and greater than Jonah. He, or others who knew the OT writings and recognised that He fitted every clue which had been given by God previously, claimed all the prophesies which identified Him as the Messiah. His credentials were perfect.

He had been proved by His Father and approved to take on the task of overcoming Satan on the cross, and God raised Him from the dead because it was not possible death could hold Him. (Acts 2:24) Much more could be said. Paul writes:

Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.

His death broke Satan's power on the whole of creation:

Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

It really is essential that we belive what He says when He speaks only what His Father indicates.

John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

All the above is said because we have to become ready to speak out against lies about God's Person, His character and His activities. it is not a passing whim that the Son of God should be trustworthy in every word He speaks. In fact He is trustworthy, because He cannot lie. Titus 1:2 This should put a wholly different complexion on all that He has said, and should become of the utmost interest for every believer. Luke 10:18 I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. One of the key events leading up to the Fall, was that Eve was deceived by the 'father of lies'.

Matthew 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

'or a literal Creation account'.

There are so many Bible verses which specifically state that God created the heavens and the earth and all that is in them, that I'm not going to quote any. Suffice it to say that it would not just be God whose integrity is called into question by those disbelieving His testimony about Himself, but, all the disciples and apostles who know it's true.

'it can be a unnecessary stumbling block for some people'

Disbelieving the word of God could be a stumbling block to Christ when they call on Him to save them.

Matthew 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 11:6 And blessed is [he], whosoever shall not be offended in me.

Matthew 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

It will depend what God sees when He looks into their heart, whether this is an issue of ignorance or unbelief, or an unrenewed mind. To be honest, if it's a stumbling block, the stumbling probably leads to falling, rather than salvatio. But a person who believes to the saving of their soul, will know the God who saved them. That's part of the deal. That person will know if the God who cleansed their heart and washed it white as snow, was capable of making the worlds and flooding this one.

Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you [of] heavenly things?

John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust [it] into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed. 30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
 
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Personally I doubt if we will see aspen2 again.
To describe the Biblical testimony as writing from people with primitive understanding reveals liberal unbelief. Whilst they did have primitive understandng of science and the like there is no reason to suggest they were less intelligent and what they describe of course is the seen witness of Christ and the spiritual revelation of God, and not their own wisdom.

It is surprisng then that at the same time on another Christian forum one of the liberals has proposed the NT is not an eyewitness account in any way. Having been challenged he starts a thread on the topic quoting and citing other liberal non believers' articles as well as though we who believe will somehow be convinced by those who dont believe. But the spirit behind this is satanic, right from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, satan's plan is to to cause unbelief. .

I would have loved to know the answer from aspen2's as to what he was thinking of is a worse situation than the motehrs killing her child in abortion.
 

dragonfly

Well-Known Member
Apr 19, 2012
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141
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Hi brightmorningstar,

I wouldn't be too hard on aspen, as he has mixed with those who do not hold scripture in high regard in their hearts. But, I believe he has an honest heart towards God, and has been sequestered in the philosophy we have challenged, not out of making a conscious choice between believing God's word and believing this world's philosophy, but being unconscious of that first possibility, he's received the presentation of a choice between believing this world's philosophy, or, this world's representation to him, of the Bible's message. Many, many people are drawn into the belief they've made an informed choice. In fact, I would say aspen deserves credit for understanding the need for victory over sin, and doing his best to achieve that.

I well remember the immense difficulty I had for years, as my blinded mind struggled to believe connections existed for me to find as others had done, but I found prayer much more use in my sense of connection to God. Nevertheless, it did me immeasurable good to worship with people who believed scripture and could expound it. I could understand what God was saying to me through them, and God spoke to me many times - far more than my own Bible study produced in those days. But, eventually, having prayed about my 'intellectual' difficulties specifically, the Lord led me through a number steps, out of my confusion, and cleared away the mental fog - miraculously, it seemed - so that I've lost all doubt that God speaks to me from those pages. All of us who have read the Bible closely over a number of years, know how many times God has surprised us with revelation from a verse or narrative which we had never 'seen' before. Bible reading is quite a simple pursuit on the surface, but once the Holy Spirit begins to show us the connections God has hidden under the surface, the Book is transformed in our hand.


Paul Washer describes some of the philosophical issues at work today, in one of his addresses. I'll post his comments next.

Extract from transcript of this message by Paul Washer:
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=1021081230111



'First, I want to talk to you about this. When we look at Romans 1:16 we understand that
Paul was not ashamed of the gospel. That might seem something unusual to us that he has
to make that statement, being an apostle, a principal carrier of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
But I want to tell you that Paul’s flesh had every reason to be ashamed of the gospel
because the gospel he preached contradicted everything that was believed to be true and
everything that was believed to be sacred in his culture.

Now just really quick I want to say this. Paul makes no attempt to become relevant to his
culture. He makes no attempt to make treaty with his culture, adapt his message to the
culture, repackage the message or any of the other nonsense that has become so
prominent in the evangelical community today.

To the Jew the gospel, Paul’s gospel was the worst sort of blasphemy because it claimed
that the Nazarene who died on that cross accursed was the Messiah and the Son of God.
To the Greek it was the worst sort of absurdity because it claimed that this Jew from
some out of the way place was actually God in the flesh. Therefore, Paul knew that
whenever he opened his mouth to speak the gospel he would be utterly rejected and
ridiculed to scorn unless the Holy Spirit intervened and moved upon the hearts and minds
of his hearers.

Now this is what he knew. This is what you should know. If you are properly preaching
the gospel, it will be scandalous and if you try to make it less of a scandal you no longer
preach the gospel.

Now I just want to quote from a few contemporaries of primitive Christianity. Pliny the
Younger writes, after examining the beliefs of two Christian slave girls under torture, he
says, “I discovered nothing but a perverse and extravagant superstition.”

In The Dialogue Octavius by Minucius Felix he derides the Christians saying, “Their
ceremonies center on a man put to death for his crime and on the fatal wood of the cross.”
He goes on to say that Christians put forth sick delusions, a senseless and crazy
superstition which leads to the destruction of all religion.

I know I may offend many on this, but most modern day church growth strategies used in
evangelical churches, their main focus is to get around the very thing I just read.
An oracle of Apollo preserved in the writings of Augustine in response to a man’s
question about what he can do to turn his wife away from the Christian faith says this.
“Let her continue as she pleases persisting in her vain delusions and lamenting song of
God who died in delusions, who was condemned by judges, whose verdict was just and
executed in the prime of life by the worst of death, a death bound with iron.”
Lucian - he was basically the Voltaire of antiquity - mocks Christians in his De Morte
Peregrini as poor devils who deny the Greek gods and, instead, honor that crucified
sophist and live according to his laws.

In Origen’s work Contra Celsus, Celsus declares, “What drunken old woman telling
stories to lull a small child to sleep would not be ashamed of utterly such preposterous
things.”

Now in our day, the primitive gospel is no less offensive, for it still contradicts every
tenet or ism in our culture: Relativism, Pluralism and Humanism. Now let’s just look at
these for just a moment.

We live in an age of Relativism, a belief system based on the absolute certainty that there
are no absolute certainties. We hypocritically applaud men for seeking the truth, but call
for the public execution of any man who believes he has found it. We live in a self
imposed dark age. Why? The reason for this is clear. Natural man is a fallen creature. He
is morally corrupt and he is hell bent on autonomy or self government. He hates God
because God is righteous and he hates God’s laws because they censor him and restrict
his evil. He hates the truth because it exposes him for what he is and troubles what is left
of his conscience. Therefore, fallen man seeks to push the truth, especially the truth
about God as far from him as he can possibly remove it. He will go to any extent to
suppress the truth even to the point of pretending that there is no such thing as truth or
that if it does exist, it cannot be known or have any bearing on our lives.

Realize this about the gospel. It is never a case of a hiding God, but of hiding man. The
problem is never the intellect, but the will. I do not believe that the Bible gives any room
for Atheism. There are liars and God haters who push the truth out of their minds, but
there are no such thing as Atheists. For although they knew him, you see, like a man who
hides his head in the sand to avoid a charging rhino, modern man denies the truth of a
righteous God and moral absolutes in hopes of quieting his conscience and putting out of
his mind the judgment that he knows must come.

Now the Christian gospel is a scandal to the man involved in Relativism and his culture
because the Christian gospel does the one thing that man most hopes to avoid. It awakens
him from his self imposed slumber to the reality of his falseness and rebellion and calls
him to reject autonomy, self government and submit to God through repentance and faith
in Jesus Christ.

Now we also live in an age of Pluralism, a belief system that puts an end to truth by
declaring everything to be true.

Now do you understand what I am saying? When everything is true, when contradictory
statements that are diametrically opposed, when both of them are labeled as true, you
have the death of truth.

Now it may be difficult for contemporary Christians to understand what I am about to
say, but the Christians living in the first few centuries of the Christian faith were marked
and persecuted as Atheists and you will be, too. If a revival doesn’t break out in this
country, this is one of the reasons you are going to go to jail.

Now, the culture surrounding the Christian was immersed in Theism. The world was
filled with images of deities and religion was a booming business. Men not only tolerated
one another’s deities, but they swapped them and shared them like baseball cards. The
entire religious world was going on just fine until the Christians showed up and declare

that he gods made with hands are no gods at all. They denied the Caesars the homage
they demanded, refused to bend their knee to all other so-called gods and the confessed
Jesus alone to be Lord of all. And, therefore, they were labeled Atheists.

The entire world looked on such draw dropping arrogance and reacted with fury against
the Christian’s intolerable intolerance to tolerance.

Now I want you to look at something. Look at these words. Jaw dropping arrogance. The
same scenario abounds in our world today. Against all logic we are told that all views
regarding religion and morality are true no matter how radically different they are or
contradictory they may be.

The most overwhelming aspect of all of this is that through the tireless efforts of the
media and the academic world, this has quickly become the majority view. However,
pluralism does not address the issue or cure the malady. It only anesthetizes the patient so
that he no longer feels or thinks.

Now the gospel is a scandal because it awakens man from his slumber and refuses to let
him rest on such an illogical footing. It forces him to come to some conclusion. How
long will you hesitate between two opinions? If the Lord is God, follow him and if Baal,
follow him. The true gospel is radically exclusive.

I never thought I would have to say this in front of a bunch of evangelicals. I never
thought there would come a day when I would have to say such a thing to evangelicals
that the gospel is radically exclusive. I never thought that we would begin to lose Christ
as the only way.

Now listen. The true gospel is radically exclusive. Jesus is not a way, but the way and all
other ways are no way at all. Now listen to this very carefully, because this is what is
happening today. If Christianity would only move one small step toward a more tolerant
ecumenicalism and change the definite article “the” in “the Savior” for the indefinite
article “a” or “a Savior” the scandal would be removed and the world and Christianity
could become friends. Do you realize that? If we would simply say that Yahweh is a god
we would have no persecution on our hands. If we would simply say that Jesus is a
savior, I would be on the Oprah Winfrey show. Do you realize that? All the scandal
would remove if we just said he is our savior. You have yours, we will have ours. We are
not going to impose anything upon you. We are not going to wrangle in dialog. Nothing.
If that is your way, you go with that way and I will go with mine.

If we would only do that, we would never be persecuted. But if we do that, Christianity
ceases to be Christianity, we cease to be Christian, Christ is denied and the word is
without a Savior.

We live in an age of Humanism. Over the last several decades man has fought to purge
God from his conscience and his culture. He has torn down every visible altar to the one
true God and has erected monuments to himself with the zeal of a religious fanatic. This
is not Secularism against religious mind thinking. Don’t think that, because the secularist
has a religion. And often times he is much more fanatical in his religion than any
Christian ever pretended to be.

Man has managed to make himself the center measure and end of all things. He praises
his own inherent worth, demands homage to his self esteem and promotes his own self
fulfillment or self realization as the greatest good.

Now if you don’t think that hasn’t crept into Christianity, then you have not read the
bookYour Best Life Now, because that is exactly what that is about.
He explains away his gnawing conscience. You see, you can’t get rid of that. It is there to
stay. He explains away his gnawing conscience as the remnants of an antiquated religion
of guilt, Christianity, and he excuses himself from any responsibility for the moral chaos
surrounding him by blaming society or at least that part of society that has not yet
attained to his enlightenment.

Any suggestion that his conscience might be right in its testimony against him or that he
might be responsible for the almost infinite variations of maladies in the world is
unthinkable. For this reason the gospel is a scandal to fallen man because it exposes his
delusion about himself, it convicts him of his fallenness and guilt. This is the essential
first work of the gospel and this is why the world so loathes true gospel preaching,
because the true gospel ruins man’s party, rains on his parade, exposes his make believe
and points out that the emperor has no clothes.

Now the Scriptures recognize that the gospel of Jesus Christ is a stumbling block and
foolishness to all men of every age. And I am going to say this later. It is not just a
scandal. It is supposed to be.

Who was one of the older revivalists that said, “How could the world not get along with
the holiest man who ever walked on the planet, but it can get along with us?”
We are supposed to be a scandal. Now we don’t have to live like a bunch of fanatics. We
don’t have to do a whole bunch of crazy things to be a scandal, just be faithful to this one
proclamation. Jesus is Lord of all.

Now to seek to remove the scandal from the message is to make void the cross of Christ
and its saving power. We must understand that the gospel is not only scandalous, but it is
supposed to be. Though the foolishness of the gospel God has ordained to destroy the
wisdom of the wise, frustrate the intelligence of the greatest minds and humble the pride
of all men to the end that no flesh may boast in his presence, but just as it is written, let
him who boasts, boast in the Lord.

Paul’s gospel not only contradicted the religion, philosophy and culture of the day, but it
also declared war on them. Not a political war, not a military war, but a spiritual war of
truth.

It refused truce or treaty with they world and would settle for nothing less than culture’s
absolute surrender to the lordship of Jesus Christ. Even to every thought of our mind
being held captive to Christ. We would do well to follow Paul’s example. We must be
careful to shun every temptation to conform our gospel to the trends of the day or the
desires of carnal men.

One of the things about missions. There is all kinds of missions in this world. We don’t
need more missions. It is just most of them aren’t biblical missions. Let me share with
you something, those of you who are budding missionaries. Missions is to be defined by
the exegete and the theologian, the student of Scripture, not by the anthropologist,
sociologist and those who are experts in the new cultural trend. We do missions and
evangelism according to the sacred writings of Scripture and we need no help from Wall
Street. We have no right to water down the gospel’s offense of civilize its radical
demands in order to make it more appealing to a fallen world or carnal church members.
Our churches are filled with strategies to make them more seeker friendly by repackaging
the gospel, removing the stumbling block and taking the edge off the blade so it might be
more acceptable to carnal men. We ought to be seeker friendly, but we ought to realize
that there is only one seeker and he is God. If we are striving to make our church and our
message accommodating, let us make them accommodating to him.

If we are striving to build a church or ministry, let us build it on a passion to glorify God
and a desire not to offend his majesty.

To the wind with what the world thinks about us. We are not to seek the honor of earth,
but the honors of heaven.

Now another thing I want to point out before we go to the preaching. Our message is not
only scandalous, it is unbelievable. I want you to know that. It is an unbelievable
message. As we have argued, Paul’s flesh was not or Paul’s flesh had every reason to be
ashamed of the gospel he preached. Yet there is still another reason for fleshly shame.
The gospel is an absolutely unbelievable message, a ludicrous word to the wise of the
world. As Christians we sometimes fail to realize how utterly astounding it is when
anyone believes our message.

In a sense, the gospel is so far fetched that its spread throughout the Roman Empire is
proof of its supernatural nature. What could ever bring a Gentile, completely unaware of
Old Testament Scriptures and rooted in either Greek philosophy or pagan superstition to
believe a message, such a message about a man named Jesus? He was born under
questionable circumstances to a poor family in one of the most despised regions of the
Roman Empire and yet the gospel claimed that he was the eternal Son of God who was
conceived of the Holy Spirit in the womb of a virgin. He was a carpenter by trade, an
itinerant religious teacher with no official training and yet the gospel claims that he
surpassed the combined wisdom of the Greek philosopher and the Roman sages of
antiquity. He was poor and had no place to lay his head and yet the gospel claims that fed
three years he fed thousands by a word, healed every manner of illness among me and
even raised the dead.

He was crucified outside of Jerusalem as a blasphemer and an enemy of the state and yet
the gospel claims that his death as the pivotal event in all of human history and the only
means of salvation from sin and reconciliation to God. He was placed in a borrowed
tomb, yet the gospel claims that on the third day he arose from the dead and presented
himself to many of his followers and 40 days later ascended up into heaven and sat down
at the right hand of majesty on high.

Thus, the gospel claims that a poor Jewish carpenter who was rejected as a lunatic and a
blasphemer by his own people an crucified by the state is now the Savior of the world the
Lord of lords and the King of kings and at his name every knee will bow including
Caesar’s.

Now do you have any idea how impossible it is for anyone in Paul’s time to believe this
message? It is impossible. Who could have ever believed such a message except by the
power of God? There is no other explanation. The gospel would have never made its
way out of Jerusalem, let alone the Roman Empire and into every nation of the world
except that God had ordained to work through it. The message would have died at its
birth had it depended upon the organizational abilities, eloquence or apologetic powers of
its preachers. All the missionary strategies in the world and all the clever marketing
schemes borrowed from Wall Street could have never advanced the gospel, the foolish
stumbling block of the gospel.

Martin Pengel writes on the ancient scandal of the cross, “To believe that the one
preexistent Son of the one true God, the Mediator at creation and the Redeemer of the
world had appeared in very recent times in out of the way Galilee as a member of the
obscure people of the Jews and, even worse, had died the death of a common criminal on
the cross, could only be regarded as a sheer sign of madness.”

Now this truth brings both encouragement and warning to those of us who preach the
gospel. First, it is an encouragement to know that the simple faithful proclamation of the
gospel will ensure its continued advance in the world.

Secondly, it is a warning to us that we not succumb to the lie that we can advance the
gospel through brilliance, eloquence or clever church growth strategy. Such things have
no power to bring about the impossible conversion of men. We must cast ourselves with
hopeful desperation upon the only biblical means of advancing the gospel, the bold and
clear proclamation of a message about which we are not only not ashamed, but we
believe in and glory in because it is the power of God until salvation for everyone who
believes.

Now I want to finish by saying this. We live in an unbelieving and skeptical age. Our
faith is ridiculed as a hopeless myth and we are portrayed as either narrow minded bigots
or weak minded victims of a religious rouse. Such an attack often puts us on the
defensive and we attempt to fight back and prove our position and relevancy with
apologetics.

I want to say this. I agree with apologetics. Although some forms of this discipline are
quite helpful and necessary, we must realize that the power still lies in the proclamation
of the gospel. We cannot convince a man to believe any more than we can raise the dead.
Such things are the work of God’s Spirit. Men are brought to faith only thought the
supernatural working of God and he has promised to work not through human wisdom or
intellectual expertise, but the preaching of Christ crucified and resurrected from the dead.
We must come to grips with the fact that our gospel is an unbelievable message. We
should not expect anyone to give us a hearing, let alone believe apart from a gracious and
powerful working of God’s Spirit.

How very hopeless is all our preaching apart from God’s power. How very dependent is
the preaching upon God. All our evangelism is nothing more than a fool’s errand unless
God moves upon the hearts of men. However, he has promised to do just that if we
faithfully preach the gospel.'



He then begins his preaching, from Ezekiel 37.
 
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Dragonfly,
The challenge is about the views aspen2 is putting forward and to specifically address the questions put to him.
It isn’t the nature of the heart that is being challenged, it is the beliefs being held. One can hold wrong beliefs sincerely. The key being if one doesn’t hold the scripture in high enough regard, as the scripture says one can soon depart to another gospel and another Jesus believing it to be the same.
The rest of your post is very interesting and helpful.
The one point about relativism and pluralism is however that neither work. If there are no absolute certainties then one can’t rule out the possibility of an absolute certainty existing either, because it is not absolutely certain it doesn’t exist.