Free Will is the Veil

[XtraPercept]

...Maybe free will is not the Curtain?

Do you think there is only one curtain? Only one veil? Only one meaning to a given word or expression?

I do not seek to discredit you, but I do not see a basis for your contention aside from the suggestion that I am wrong. I welcome your challenge, I enjoy it! But would you be so kind as to explain your accusation that we might discuss it in meaningful detail?

I love a Scriptural quote, but if you want to use His words in this way, please include what you make of the Scripture you quote that we may have clarity in the outcome of our debate.

For example, in this most recent verse you post from Ephesians, I see no conflict with what I have said. The accomplishment of Christ in the flesh did indeed assuage the hostility of God toward His fallen creation. Wherein lies your challenge?

 

[Hiddenthings]

Jesus was not born from the seed of Adam

Thank you Xtra!

In one way you are correct, but in another you are not.

What was the Curtain of his flesh?

First and foremost, truth!

Romans 1:3 (ESV) "concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh"

Paul called him the second Adam

1 Corinthians 15:45 "Thus it is written, 'The first man Adam became a living being'; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit."

So, what was in his flesh that required "this new and living way" to be revealed? And what was required to tear the Curtain of this flesh?

Jesus referred to himself as the Son of Man 78 times and once possibly twice the Son of God.

What aspects of Christ's nature needed to be removed for him to become a life-giving Spirit? What was required for him to be declared the Son of God with power?

Your OP, if handled correctly can provide the vital insights into the Victory of God "through" Christ Jesus.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Do you think there is only one curtain? Only one veil? Only one meaning to a given word or expression?

I do not seek to discredit you, but I do not see a basis for your contention aside from the suggestion that I am wrong. I welcome your challenge, I enjoy it! But would you be so kind as to explain your accusation that we might discuss it in meaningful detail?

I love a Scriptural quote, but if you want to use His words in this way, please include what you make of the Scripture you quote that we may have clarity in the outcome of our debate.

For example, in this most recent verse you post from Ephesians, I see no conflict with what I have said. The accomplishment of Christ in the flesh did indeed assuage the hostility of God toward His fallen creation. Wherein lies your challenge?

That's a good question... it really depends on how particular you are with the answer

The High Priest would pass through the Holy Place and approach the veil that separated it from the Most Holy Place. On the Day of Atonement, the heavy curtain that blocked his way was pulled aside to allow his entrance. In the antitype, when Jesus died on the cross, the temple veil was torn by angelic hands, symbolizing His access to the true sanctuary. (Hebrews 10:20.) Paul further explains, "Since we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens..." (Hebrews 4:14, Greek).

First time by the way!

The "heavens" in this verse refer to both the Holy Place and the Most Holy Place, indicating that Jesus, while on earth, passed through the former to reach immortality "beyond the veil," that is, His flesh, once His work was completed. This was foreshadowed by the actions of the Aaronic High Priest on the Day of Atonement.

 

[Hiddenthings]

@XtraPercept

You will need this thread to understand the importance of what happened in his flesh.

Jesus became Immortal

Hi @David Lamb We are going to be looking at immortality and how Jesus was the first to receive this change of nature in himself. We will consider these verses in their context to gain an understanding of why it was so necessary for the Christ to the first to be blessed with immortality. In...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[XtraPercept]

Thank you Xtra!

...

Your OP, if handled correctly can provide the vital insights into the Victory of God "through" Christ Jesus.

Oh, but thank you! You bring tremendous value. I love the Master's correction, I cherish His instruction, I seek incessantly for His teaching.

The curtain of His flesh is akin to the curtain of ours, the habitation of this body of death, a shadow of the true reality to come.

"Descended from David according to the flesh" is a plain statement. According to genealogical records, the Master is of royal descent, while according to the Spirit He is of the same. This is true.

The last Adam, that is, a second 'Perfect Man' came to the world filled to the brim with the Holy Power of the Father's Spirit. And in fulfilling His mission to perfection, this second Adam became the Spirit of Life for all who seek Him.

The requirement Christ fulfilled which revealed this new way was perfection of obedience to the Father. The only requirement for His tearing was His willful and obedient participation in the plan despite the pain and suffering He incurred in so doing.

I gaurantee you not one word of complaint formed in the heart of Christ that it might have escaped His lips. Jesus would never have told a soul, "I suffer evil." Jesus knew exactly what He was in for and it was His great honor and glory to proceed in righteous boldness.

Nothing needed removing, it was a process in which He willfully participated. He was the Son of God before He was ever born.

Nothing of value maintains it's value long if handled carelessly.

 

[XtraPercept]

That's a good question... it really depends on how particular you are with the answer

I love meticulous procedure. I enjoy a precision process. I love to service cars for this reason, the steps are clear and the results obvious and immediate. Fastidiousness is a great pleasure of mine.

I appreciate your research, your insight, and your perspective. Thank you very much for sharing your time with me here!

What is the true sanctuary but the Father? What is the Holy of Holies but our place in His presence?

He tore the veil, He tore the curtain, He opened the access to the temples of our bodies for Him to enter us. His word, the Bible, which He has preserved precisely by His plan, explains to us everything we need to know to pursue His glorious offers.

The heavens refer to all things above us, as so many are for the limitations of this shadowy plain of existence. Fortunately for us, our time in this trial is but a vapor. What are decades against eternity? I have no complaints.

 

[Hiddenthings]

The last Adam, that is, a second 'Perfect Man' came to the world filled to the brim with the Holy Power of the Father's Spirit. And in fulfilling His mission to perfection, this second Adam became the Spirit of Life for all who seek Him.

You mean perfected?

Hebrews 5:9 "And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him."

What was the imperfection in him?

Hebrews 2:10 "For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering."

The requirement Christ fulfilled which revealed this new way was perfection of obedience to the Father.

Correct.

The only requirement for His tearing was His willful and obedient participation in the plan despite the pain and suffering He incurred in so doing.

"Not my (carnal) will but yours be done"

I gaurantee you not one word of complaint formed in the heart of Christ that it might have escaped His lips. Jesus would never have told a soul, "I suffer evil." Jesus knew exactly what He was in for and it was His great honor and glory to proceed in righteous boldness.

Very true - from the earliest age he knew how he would die.

Nothing needed removing, it was a process in which He willfully participated. He was the Son of God before He was ever born.

Nothing of value maintains it's value long if handled carelessly.

What was present in his flesh that needed to be torn

Hebrews 10:19-22 (ESV) "Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God,
let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience
and our bodies washed with pure water."

Why "through his flesh?"

What did God do in the flesh of Jesus's body which provided this opening anchor in the Most Holy Place in Heaven?

 

[Hiddenthings]

I love meticulous procedure. I enjoy a precision process. I love to service cars for this reason, the steps are clear and the results obvious and immediate. Fastidiousness is a great pleasure of mine.

I appreciate your research, your insight, and your perspective. Thank you very much for sharing your time with me here!

What is the true sanctuary but the Father? What is the Holy of Holies but our place in His presence?

He tore the veil, He tore the curtain, He opened the access to the temples of our bodies for Him to enter us. His word, the Bible, which He has preserved precisely by His plan, explains to us everything we need to know to pursue His glorious offers.

The heavens refer to all things above us, as so many are for the limitations of this shadowy plain of existence. Fortunately for us, our time in this trial is but a vapor. What are decades against eternity? I have no complaints.

Agree...remember it's only our hope which has passed through the Heavens to be revealed at his coming.

Hebrews 6:19 "We have this as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul, a hope that enters into the inner place behind the curtain..."

Heaven is not our destination but wherever the Lord Jesus Christ is there our hope is secured. When he returns to the Earth, he brings that anchored hope with him

1 Peter 1:5 "Who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."

 

[Hiddenthings]

@XtraPercept

You are right in your OP but it's worth being precise as you rightly say!

 

[XtraPercept]

You mean perfected?

Hebrews 5:9 "And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him."

What was the imperfection in him?

Hebrews 2:10 "For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering."

Why "through his flesh?"

What did God do in the flesh of Jesus's body which provided this opening anchor in the Most Holy Place in Heaven?

What is perfection? It is a process and a journey. Perfection starts and ends perfect and does not deviate course. Jesus in life was made perfect by virtue of His perfect walk, entering time and flesh to conduct His plan to perfection, and suffering is a part of this plan.

His fleshly work was so that our hearts may be redeemed from the flesh which incubates our souls.

And to your final question, the same. For our redemption, for our union with Him in glory and righteousness.

 

[XtraPercept]

@XtraPercept

You are right in your OP but it's worth being precise as you rightly say!

I strive for precision and love a perfect word for an idea or a concept. Thank you very much for your participation here!

And I love your parting quote from 1 Peter. Allow me to expand with my preferred translation (The Complete Bible, an American translation, by Smith and Goodspeed)

"in His great mercy, He has caused us to be born anew to a life of hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and to an imperishable, unsullied, and unfading inheritance, kept safe for you in heaven, and you by God's power are being protected through faith to receive a salvation that is now ready to be disclosed at the last time."

I have meant to memorize the remainder of 1:3-7 but I have many wonderful things to do yet and this will come in time.

Thank you again for visiting this thread.

 

[Hiddenthings]

What is perfection? It is a process and a journey. Perfection starts and ends perfect and does not deviate course. Jesus in life was made perfect by virtue of His perfect walk, entering time and flesh to conduct His plan to perfection, and suffering is a part of this plan.

His fleshly work was so that our hearts may be redeemed from the flesh which incubates our souls.

And to your final question, the same. For our redemption, for our union with Him in glory and righteousness.

Jesus had to die to sin once and live a life as though he were a sinner (died with sinners). His nature was condemned to death, and its power ruled over him until God removed that condemnation.

His will represented the flesh and all its lusts and desires and that nature had to be crucified as there was no other way than to destroy it.

Galatians 5:24 (ESV) "And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires."

No other way!

 

[Hiddenthings]

I strive for precision and love a perfect word for an idea or a concept. Thank you very much for your participation here!

And I love your parting quote from 1 Peter. Allow me to expand with my preferred translation (The Complete Bible, an American translation, by Smith and Goodspeed)

"in His great mercy, He has caused us to be born anew to a life of hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and to an imperishable, unsullied, and unfading inheritance, kept safe for you in heaven, and you by God's power are being protected through faith to receive a salvation that is now ready to be disclosed at the last time."

The first man to go from perishing to imperishable nature.

Romans 6:9 "We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him."

The reality of understanding this truth leads to a challenging revelation about the Lord, one that many in this forum would likely reject with disapproval

I'm sure you can see it.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Thanks, will leave it here for others to participate.

One final thought

What does a broken will look like and if Jesus had two will's 1. His own (nature) 2. His Fathers (Spirit)- what was broken and torn on the cross?

Clearly two opposite wills.

Jesus came to do God’s will which had been clearly defined John 6:38-40, 2 Pet 3:9, Heb 10:9-10.

Define that will and you will know why it's "through" his flesh and body which we are atoned.

In Christ
hidden

 

[XtraPercept]

The first man to go from perishing to imperishable nature.

I'm sure you can see it.

Brother we all see only what the Lord reveals and nothing more.

The nature of Christ always was, is, and will be perfection. His perfection was unsullied by His presence in the muck.

Allow me to give an example. I used to be a bit of a "germophobe" and ardently 'clean' as much as I could be at all times. I routinely shower more than once in a day, even today. But I used to detest getting dirty.

Today, by the transformative power of His presence, I am clean inside and out. And comically, this has empowered me to get as dirty as I need to in the course of His work. Despite clean clothes, fresh hair, and spotless shoes, I will not hesitate to jump into the muck to help someone out of a hole.

Jesus is clean and perfect, and the power of His holiness was untouchable by the falsehood of the world. His entire process was perfect. There was never risk, never problem, never contention, only the scope of time passing from start to finish of a process of unimaginably grand design.

 

[XtraPercept]

Thanks, will leave it here for others to participate.

One final thought

What does a broken will look like and if Jesus had two will's 1. His own (nature) 2. His Fathers (Spirit)- what was broken and torn on the cross?

Clearly two opposite wills.

Jesus came to do God’s will which had been clearly defined John 6:38-40, 2 Pet 3:9, Heb 10:9-10.

Define that will and you will know why it's "through" his flesh and body which we are atoned.

In Christ
hidden

Your input is wonderful!

My will was broken. As I had mentioned, I was prepared to destroy everything I could with myself included for lack of Him. He has broken my neck and my back. He has broken my soul and my body. And when my spirit was shattered fully, that was when the lies sloughed off and His healing began.

The flesh is the enemy. The flesh is the liar. The flesh is the trial. The flesh was the will that Christ, by the power of His Spirit, subjected to perfect obedience to the Father to pay our penalty so that we could be united with Him.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Brother we all see only what the Lord reveals and nothing more.

The nature of Christ always was, is, and will be perfection. His perfection was unsullied by His presence in the muck.

Look where your mind doesn't want to look and the true Christ will be revealed to you.

Allow me to give an example. I used to be a bit of a "germophobe" and ardently 'clean' as much as I could be at all times. I routinely shower more than once in a day, even today. But I used to detest getting dirty.

Today, by the transformative power of His presence, I am clean inside and out. And comically, this has empowered me to get as dirty as I need to in the course of His work. Despite clean clothes, fresh hair, and spotless shoes, I will not hesitate to jump into the muck to help someone out of a hole.

Jesus is clean and perfect, and the power of His holiness was untouchable by the falsehood of the world. His entire process was perfect. There was never risk, never problem, never contention, only the scope of time passing from start to finish of a process of unimaginably grand design.

Not to discount how much this means to you Xtra but there is a truth very few Christians want to know or understand.

Jesus died to sin once for you but if you do not desire to know why this rests with you alone.

Romans 6:10 (ESV) "For the death he died, he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God."

Why would God require a perfect son die to sin once?

This is more about knowing Who God is and How He operates with His Holiness and Righteousness.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Your input is wonderful!

My will was broken. As I had mentioned, I was prepared to destroy everything I could with myself included for lack of Him. He has broken my neck and my back. He has broken my soul and my body. And when my spirit was shattered fully, that was when the lies sloughed off and His healing began.

The flesh is the enemy. The flesh is the liar. The flesh is the trial. The flesh was the will that Christ, by the power of His Spirit, subjected to perfect obedience to the Father to pay our penalty so that we could be united with Him.

This is it! But I’m still not sure if the full weight of Christ’s nature has sunk in for you... When it does, it hits like a freight train to the face

 

[XtraPercept]

@Hiddenthings

Thank you for your concern. Someday we will share the same light when the Father shines upon us all.

In due time we will all receive our complete evaluations from His perfect perspective. He will observe our use of the talents He gave us. He will determine who has and who lacks. I strive only for alignment with Him. I seek nothing He would not give me. I ask nothing He has not already provided me. I want nothing but what He has for me.

 

[Hiddenthings]

@XtraPercept

Psalm 22:6 "But I am a worm and not a man, scorned by mankind and despised by the people."

Jesus could identify with these words because he could identify with sins flesh! Romans 8:1-3

John 2:25 "and needed no one to bear witness about man, for Jesus himself knew what was in man."

How did he know?

Luke 12:50 (ESV) "I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how great is my (agony) distress until it is accomplished!"

He was like you in nature and was tempted in all points as you are yet without sin.

"People often shape Jesus into something he’s not, and in doing so, they strip away his sufferings. As a result, they can no longer truly identify with him because they have redefined him into something he never claimed to be.

People don't want to look into Christ's nature for fear of what they will find. The Apostles could not stop talking and writing about it.