Free will, the root of misunderstanding

[veteran]

VETERAN...



If maintaining salvation is in your hands than you have merit ... is that what you believe in to get salvation? Your own fidelity? The power of your virtue?

The warnings is to not let them selves be fooled by sin for we were not saved to serve sin... however salvation is not ever is stake... the eternal life is FREE not by salary for good behavior.

God is NOT going to save anyone who does NOT want... to be saved, and that's another way how you're missing that free will is in effect for most today.

It is NOT His will that any... should perish. However, He will NOT... override the will of those who do not want a life with Him and His Son. And that's fine, God's people don't need the wicked who choose to perish instead of bowing to Him in Faith. And the wicked will... make that choice for theirselves, for they all will 'see' Christ Jesus and 'know' the full truth so they are without excuse.

 

[Sargento]

DODO...

Sargento, you are welcome to use any version of the Bible that you want, including the KJV, but it is not necessary to use the King James Version in a public, English-speaking forum.

The KJV contains archaic language that can be confusing to modern-day English speaking people.

The KJV originally gained use when its use was legally mandated for people under English rule.

Now that English-speaking nations have freedom of religion, English-speaking people are free to use the English versions of the Bible of their choosing.

In order to cater to an international audience, I choose to quote from the New International Version, which is the version of choice of the creators of this website.

If you want to have access to the NIV or any other version, then I recommend that you make use of the free website http://www.biblegateway.com/, which gives you a choice of many versions written in different languages.

Again, you can still use the KJV, but others (like me) may have difficulty understanding it.

As for free will, God has it.

Ok, I'll take a look at biblegateway and NIV...

Yes GOD has it... and man? Does he has it to?


ANGELINA...

Free will and predestination go hand in hand. God predestined mankind to fulfill his plan both Jew and Gentile, male and female, black, white or red. Mankind has a free will to choose whether he wishes to follow Gods plan or not. :)

Not only the verses you've quoted do not show free will has they appose to it.

How is predestination hand in hand to free will?


Man and GOD have opposed wills, how then can GOD's predestination fulfill if man has free will? Unless you're saying that GOD's predestination can be frustrated... is that it?

If HE determines what happens how is it that is my free will?
Angeline, it's GOD or man who owns our destiny, it cannot be both.


VETERAN...

God is NOT going to save anyone who does NOT want... to be saved, and that's another way how you're missing that free will is in effect for most today.

It is NOT His will that any... should perish. However, He will NOT... override the will of those who do not want a life with Him and His Son. And that's fine, God's people don't need the wicked who choose to perish instead of bowing to Him in Faith. And the wicked will... make that choice for theirselves, for they all will 'see' Christ Jesus and 'know' the full truth so they are without excuse.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know {them}, because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Coríntios 2:14


My friend, no man wants to be saved if GOD doesn't save him first... they cannot even see they're doomed so they can want to be saved.
In order that can see your sin you have first to convinced by the Holy Ghost... your conversion and regeneration (it's the same) it's HIS work and decision, not yours.

 

[aspen]

hmm.....according to your understanding of free will, which you claim God has; God can sin.

Yet, we know God cannot sin so.....does that mean doesn't have free will?

 

[Sargento]

Sin again's who Aspen?
He can do what HE tell us not to do, but if HE does who will HE sin against?

Do you know what sin is?

 

[aspen]

Sin is performing an act of lesser good. It is acting outside our true nature, which is a misuse of God's creation in our case and a violiation against God in God's case. God would be sinning against Himself, to answer your question, which is impossible.

 

[Sargento]

GOD would sin against HIMself??? Do you know what you're saying??
You claim free will and the ability to make any choice for you, but GOD you limit HIM this way??

Aspen, this is impressive...

Listen Aspen, sin is being against GOD, and good and evil is what HE determines to be good or evil, HE makes the boundaries and imposes the limits... good or evil are subject to HIM.
HE's not under good and evil, HE's above it and decides what is what...
...if HE breaks HIS every single commandment to man HE will still be saint and pure, or do you think HE can't? Or do you think HE would not be saint if HE do that?

Who makes man saint or wicked? Is it they're actions or GOD's justice?
Aspen, saint is what HE declares saint according to HIS WILL, and sin what HE deliberates sin IN HIS WILL...

In the case of Saul, his sin (Saul's sin) was having mercy when GOD told him "Kill them all including babies and animals and have no mercy".
Aspen, do not act like Saul.

And do not think like the ones GOD will have revenge from:

And it shall come to pass at that time, that I will search Jerusalem with lamps; and I will punish the men that are settled on their lees, that say in their heart, Jehovah will not do good, neither will he do evil.
Sf 1:12


But if you still don't accept this then give an example of something that HE would sin for if HE did it...

 

[williemac]

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know {them}, because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Coríntios 2:14


My friend, no man wants to be saved if GOD doesn't save him first... they cannot even see they're doomed so they can want to be saved.
In order that can see your sin you have first to convinced by the Holy Ghost... your conversion and regeneration (it's the same) it's HIS work and decision, not yours.

This observation of 1cor.2:14 can lead to incorrect conclusions. We are told that the gospel is the power of God to salvation (Rom.1:16). It is not a matter of first being conceived by the Holy Ghost. This would be an incorrect conclusion. The bible also states that The Holy Spirit was sent to convince the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment. His method, as some would argue that it is, is not at all to covertly change a person from the inside so that they can understand . His method is that which always has been....communication..as you say.


So you are saying that man has to first be convinced. I agree. But how does this equate to a man not having a decision in the matter? You are not making sense to me. Is a response not a decision? God gives grace to the humble. He is requiring that a person understands his predicament and humbly accepts the free offer of life offered by the death and resurrection of Jesus. Jesus stands at the door and knocks. Is the opening of the door not a decision? Please explain how that is. Is the response to an invitation not a decision?

Just an FYI, for everybody. It has come to my realization that some people are confusing 'will power' with free will. They are not the same. We cannot give ourselves life by our will (power). But we can receive the gift of life by our humble response to the offer (free will).

 

[aspen]

oh boy......

if God can swear by Himself, He is also subject to Himself PERIOD.

Now, comes the question 'can a house be divided against itself and still stand'? Not according to Jesus. therefore, God cannot act against His own nature.

You either have to throw out the term, free will as an oxymoron or revise your definition of the term.

btw God is the very definition of good - He is His own standard, definition, and unlimited limit.

Evil is lesser, misused, or broken Good - it is not a separate force, but dependent on Good inorder to exist. How can a perfect circle be less than perfect a remain a circle? How can God be less than God and remain God?

 

[veteran]

My friend, no man wants to be saved if GOD doesn't save him first... they cannot even see they're doomed so they can want to be saved.
In order that can see your sin you have first to convinced by the Holy Ghost... your conversion and regeneration (it's the same) it's HIS work and decision, not yours.

If that were actually true, then NONE of the Old Testament Israelites should have ever... fallen away into pagan idol worship against Him. And likewise today, NO ONE who once repented of their sins and confessed Jesus Christ as their Saviour should ever be able to fall away and reject Him. Fact: some did, and some have.

You're just not living in the reality of God's Word, nor the reality of today's times, for in our near future when the pseudo-Christ comes, many brethren are going to fall away from our Lord Jesus Christ. And when Jesus does return, many will go up to Him saying, "Lord, Lord...", and claim how they cast devils out in His Name, did many wonderful works in His Name, preaching Him in the streets, but Jesus will say to those who were guiilty of iniquity, to get away from Him (Matt.7). Now that's a Bible example from our Lord Jesus Himself, showing how even those are believers on Him that want to be saved, expect to be saved!

Matt 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto Me, "Lord, Lord", shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father Which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works?"
23 And then will I profess unto them, "I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity."
(KJV)

 

[Sargento]

Williemac...

This observation of 1cor.2:14 can lead to incorrect conclusions. We are told that the gospel is the power of God to salvation (Rom.1:16). It is not a matter of first being conceived by the Holy Ghost. This would be an incorrect conclusion. The bible also states that The Holy Spirit was sent to convince the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment. His method, as some would argue that it is, is not at all to covertly change a person from the inside so that they can understand . His method is that which always has been....communication..as you say.


So you are saying that man has to first be convinced. I agree. But how does this equate to a man not having a decision in the matter? You are not making sense to me. Is a response not a decision? God gives grace to the humble. He is requiring that a person understands his predicament and humbly accepts the free offer of life offered by the death and resurrection of Jesus. Jesus stands at the door and knocks. Is the opening of the door not a decision? Please explain how that is. Is the response to an invitation not a decision?

Just an FYI, for everybody. It has come to my realization that some people are confusing 'will power' with free will. They are not the same. We cannot give ourselves life by our will (power). But we can receive the gift of life by our humble response to the offer (free will).

So your conclusion about 1Cor2:14 is ... look else where??

Do you know what it means to be convinced? Be convinced is being DEFEATED.
Yes, HE knocks (the spirit talks)... but not all can hear it.

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Apocalipse 3:20

Because not all CAN hear... and not all can understand the spirit says... again 1cor2:14.




ASPEN...

If every time I refute what you say you ignore it then this is not going anywhere... answer first to my previous post, than if you're able to show me wrong you can proceed with more statements.

I've been answering everything, but some of you sometimes pretend not to see what I show and move on to the next theory... that is loving to be right, not loving the truth.




VETERAN...

Matt 7:21-23 does talk about believers... it talks about those who act in HIS name like if their were really Christians...
Do you think a believers will perish??? How are we saved then??? By works???

If that were actually true, then NONE of the Old Testament Israelites should have ever... fallen away into pagan idol worship against Him. And likewise today, NO ONE who once repented of their sins and confessed Jesus Christ as their Saviour should ever be able to fall away and reject Him. Fact: some did, and some have.

In the old testament no man was reborn... regeneration only came after Christ after HE sent the Holy Ghost to live in us.

Repent and conversion are NOT actions.. do not happen in your hands, happens in your heart... a conversion or repent that is own decision is FAKE... that is why that fall back, because they never believed, just "decided" to believe against their wicked heart.
Don't you know that any love, hate, repent, faith that comes from your decision is fake???

If your heart does not produce it involuntarily it's fake.

However if GOD regenerates someone EVEN if he sins all of his live he will always be saint, perfect, elect; and the minute he closes his eyes on earth he'll open them in Heaven.

 

[Angelina]

Not only the verses you've quoted do not show free will has they appose to it.
How is predestination hand in hand to free will?
Man and GOD have opposed wills, how then can GOD's predestination fulfill if man has free will? Unless you're saying that GOD's predestination can be frustrated... is that it?

If HE determines what happens how is it that is my free will?
Angeline, it's GOD or man who owns our destiny, it cannot be both.

I do not think so...although God may know the outcome of every man's choice...still, he gives them a a choice. Mans' will is manipulated by his fallen state but that does not mean he cannot choose from the basis of that state [have we not also chosen from that fallen state?] otherwise only the supposed "elect" will choose and if that were the case, there would not be any need for God to separate sheep from goats. :)

Shalom!!!

 

[aspen]

S: GOD would sin against HIMself???

A: God would never sin against Himself, but in the context of your ridiculous scenario, yes - if God could sin, He would be sinning against Himself - who else is there for Him to sin against?

S: Do you know what you're saying??

A: Yes - the whole idea of God sinning is absurd.

S: You claim free will and the ability to make any choice for you, but GOD you limit HIM this way??

A: I am not limiting God. He is limited by His knowable character. Healthy, whole free will is having the ability to choose between good options. Broken free will is choosing between bad options. God limits Himself by His own nature - all defined, knowable, stable beings are defined by their nature or character. God is all powerful, but He cannot be less than who He is, because He is perfect.

S: Listen Aspen, sin is being against GOD, and good and evil is what HE determines to be good or evil, HE makes the boundaries and imposes the limits... good or evil are subject to HIM.

A: "sin is being against GOD" - don't flatter yourself! It is not possible to be against God without legitimizing evil as a real position, as if we are worthy enough to be against someone who is that far above us! Can you be against the sun? Can an ant defy you? LOL!! The very fact that Lucifer thought he was able to defy God is breathtaking pride.

"And good and evil is what HE determines to be good or evil". This statement denies absolute truth. You are claiming that God can make rape good or evil depending on His mood. Not possible - rape is evil because it is the result of misused sex, and other emotions that are twisted into violence and rage. It is absolutely true that rape is always evil. God is not a God of situation ethics.

S: HE's not under good and evil, HE's above it and decides what is what...

A: He is also faithful to His own Goodness. Anything less would cease to be God.

S:...if HE breaks HIS every single commandment to man HE will still be saint and pure, or do you think HE can't?

A: God is not a saint - He is the source of sainthood and Perfection. If God ceased being perfect by being faithful to His character, He would cease to be God; if a boat ceases to be sea-worthy, it ceases to be a boat.

S: Who makes man saint or wicked? Is it they're actions or GOD's justice?

A: false dichotomy. God's Grace makes saints. Humanity is evil without God because we ceased to be fully human as a result of the Fall.

S: Aspen, saint is what HE declares saint according to HIS WILL, and sin what HE deliberates sin IN HIS WILL...

A: Again, God according to His Grace, justifies us and sanctifies us - think of it like a cobbler selecting a broken shoe and deeming it worthy of attention (justification) and fixing it (sanctification).

S: In the case of Saul, his sin (Saul's sin) was having mercy when GOD told him "Kill them all including babies and animals and have no mercy".

A: Most of the OT is concerned with God's sovereignty. It is also God's Word written from a human perspective. I am sure the people around Saul attributed God's disapprove of Saul with his unwillingness to kill people.

S: But if you still don't accept this then give an example of something that HE would sin for if HE did it...[/quote]

GOD would sin against HIMself??? Do you know what you're saying??

A: What you are asking me to do is ridiculous. It is like imagining how I might react if I was terrified of something that does not exist, is impossible, and unimaginable.

 

[williemac]

Williemac...

So your conclusion about 1Cor2:14 is ... look else where??

Do you know what it means to be convinced? Be convinced is being DEFEATED.
Yes, HE knocks (the spirit talks)... but not all can hear it.

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Apocalipse 3:20

Because not all CAN hear... and not all can understand the spirit says... again 1cor2:14.

It is not wrong to look elsewhere. This prevents us from drawing wrong conclusions about one passage. The wrong conclusion is that God's power for salvation is in His will, or sovereignty. Rather, it is in His gospel. But to address the passage you imply I am ignoring, it is a simple matter of examining the context. And when we do, we can see that Paul called the Corinthians carnal and remarked that because of this he could not feed them solid food. So nowhere in the passage was he intending to say that unregenerate man cannot be saved without first being regenerated. If we follow that logic, then we mess up the order given in John 3:16. Regeneration, the new birth, is a result of having received it by faith. It does not come so that faith can happen. It comes from out of faith, which by the way, comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

As well, the observation that not all can hear is not a license to assume that hearing comes from regeneration. The bible says that God gives grace to the humble and resists the proud. Scripture is understood in light of scripture. Why not assume that the proud cannot hear? This would certainly bring about compatibility rather than contradiction from scripture.

So tell me, does God first give grace to make one humble, or does He give grace to those who are first humble?

BTW, your observation that things come from one's heart rather than their hand is redundant. One's heart is not in his own hand? You are in contradiction. We are told to guard our hearts. God has judged people for thinking or saying things in their own heart. Our hearts are most certainly the center of our own minds. If you must know, the heart is the equivalent to that which the world has labelled the subconscious.

 

[veteran]

VETERAN...

Matt 7:21-23 does talk about believers... it talks about those who act in HIS name like if their were really Christians...
Do you think a believers will perish??? How are we saved then??? By works???

Those in Matt.7 which He will say that to definitely... represent believers on Him. There's no mistaking that, simply because of the works they did in His Name, preached Him, etc. Let's not let men's popular ideas get in the way of that, because that is not the only Scripture revealing this. Recall His parable about the ten virgins, who do you think the five foolish virgins represent, unbelievers? No, of course not.

Lot of so-called churches today are preaching just enough of The Gospel to get folks up to the baptismal, and then teach they cannot ever fall away from Christ, some even that they cannot sin anymore. Those are really not being fed enough of God's Word in order to be prepared to make a stand for Christ Jesus with what's getting ready to come upon the whole world in our near future.

In the old testament no man was reborn... regeneration only came after Christ after HE sent the Holy Ghost to live in us.

Repent and conversion are NOT actions.. do not happen in your hands, happens in your heart... a conversion or repent that is own decision is FAKE... that is why that fall back, because they never believed, just "decided" to believe against their wicked heart.
Don't you know that any love, hate, repent, faith that comes from your decision is fake???

If your heart does not produce it involuntarily it's fake.

However if GOD regenerates someone EVEN if he sins all of his live he will always be saint, perfect, elect; and the minute he closes his eyes on earth he'll open them in Heaven.

My Bible says for us to repent to Christ Jesus of our sins and believe on Him unto Salvation by His Grace. It does not say that after we've done that we can go live our life any ole' way we want and continue doing the same things before, like today's OSAS ideas of men are teaching.

If a believer thinks they can just go and live however they want and think they're saved, then their 'conversion' had no effect. But do those still believe on Jesus? Yes. They just don't obey Him.

I could imagine their conversation with Him being just like what He said there in Matt.7:23, and why He will say to those, "... I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity."

Will those be destroyed by Jesus when He comes and rejects them? No. They will be cast to the "outer darkness" where the rest of the wicked will be in that future time.

Matt 22:12-14
12 And he saith unto him, "Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment?" And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, "Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
(KJV)


Don't think I don't apply these things to myself also, for I know... I'm still a sinner and need His saving Grace.

 

[Sargento]

ANGELINA...

I do not think so...although God may know the outcome of every man's choice...still, he gives them a a choice. Mans' will is manipulated by his fallen state but that does not mean he cannot choose from the basis of that state [have we not also chosen from that fallen state?] otherwise only the supposed "elect" will choose and if that were the case, there would not be any need for God to separate sheep from goats. :)

Shalom!!!

I was hopping you could answer my questions, not make more thoughts ignoring mine ... but it's ok. I'll answer these too.

Yes, only the elect choose GOD, and that happens because GOD releases them from sin slavery and gives them HIS own previously to that choise...
Because first they have to be released... we are not released because we choose, but we choose because we are released... before you can deliver a good fruit you have first to become a good tree.
...at that point the elect stop LIVING by sin and start LIVING by Jesus....
I'm not talking about works or deeds, I'm talking about LIFE - SPIRIT.


The separation of sheep from the goats is the separation of two different species ... sons of GOD from sons of Devil.... none of them choose to be what it is.
This will happen in the last day because until there all of them look alike.


ASPEN...


Amazing... you discredit the all bible... why do bother to show you anything?? Nothing count's...
Your conclusion of all is that HE does not creates evil, the rejection of Saul by the prophet is human perspective (no wonder this generation kills the prophets), GOD is limited in his choices, HE is GOD for what HE does, etc... and many like these.

Of course what I ask you it its unimaginable... or if I show it to you it's probably in a human perspective... because if I show you that GOD does something you do not accept in HIM you'll harden your heart and pretend not to see.... so you can call yourself a believer without really believing in HIM.

Aspen, you do not believe in GOD but you do not know it yet.
I guess it's a waste of time showing you bible.


WILLIEMAC...

It's not wrong to look else where if you do not ignore this... which you do... I wonder if the opposite was found here, if you would look the other way!! Unless you don't believe in it!

Paul called the Corinthians carnal because they were ACTING like it... not because they were not reborn... see the all letter.
The Corinthians were one of the worst churches in therms of good deeds, one of the worst cases was the man who slept whith his father wife, still Pauls says:

In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
1 Coríntios 5:4-5

Although their behavior was not good they were already reborn because they would be saved in the day of the Lord like Paul said.
See how this letter starts...

Paul, called {to be} an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes {our} brother,
Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called {to be} saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
Grace {be} unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and {from} the Lord Jesus Christ.
I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and {in} all knowledge;
Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: {coming: Gr. revelation}
Who shall also confirm you unto the end, {that ye may be} blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
God {is} faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.
1 Coríntios 1:1-9

No they were not carnal, they were acting like it and being reprimanded for it though.

The context??? My friend read it then... but read it all and not just one verse, do not make a context out of one verse to deny another like I have not.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know {them}, because they are spiritually discerned.
But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. {judgeth: or, discerneth} {judged: or, discerned}
For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. {may: Gr. shall}
1 Coríntios 2:14-16


John 3:16 does not says that they have faith to later reborn ... it says that who ever believe shall not perish.

So tell me, does God first give grace to make one humble, or does He give grace to those who are first humble?

It's his grace what makes us humble... otherwise his grace would not be free but instead a salary.
It would have a price and would not be free...

Or do you think you became humble (if you are saved) out of your self??




No, one's heart is not in his own hands.
Is your heart in your own hands?? Do you control what you love and hate? Is that in your power? Or do you decide ACCORDING to it?

VETERAN...

Those in Matt.7 which He will say that to definitely... represent believers on Him. There's no mistaking that, simply because of the works they did in His Name, preached Him, etc. Let's not let men's popular ideas get in the way of that, because that is not the only Scripture revealing this. Recall His parable about the ten virgins, who do you think the five foolish virgins represent, unbelievers? No, of course not.

Lot of so-called churches today are preaching just enough of The Gospel to get folks up to the baptismal, and then teach they cannot ever fall away from Christ, some even that they cannot sin anymore. Those are really not being fed enough of God's Word in order to be prepared to make a stand for Christ Jesus with what's getting ready to come upon the whole world in our near future.

My Bible says for us to repent to Christ Jesus of our sins and believe on Him unto Salvation by His Grace. It does not say that after we've done that we can go live our life any ole' way we want and continue doing the same things before, like today's OSAS ideas of men are teaching.

If a believer thinks they can just go and live however they want and think they're saved, then their 'conversion' had no effect. But do those still believe on Jesus? Yes. They just don't obey Him.

I could imagine their conversation with Him being just like what He said there in Matt.7:23, and why He will say to those, "... I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity."

Will those be destroyed by Jesus when He comes and rejects them? No. They will be cast to the "outer darkness" where the rest of the wicked will be in that future time.

Matt 22:12-14
12 And he saith unto him, "Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment?" And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, "Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
(KJV)


Don't think I don't apply these things to myself also, for I know... I'm still a sinner and need His saving Grace.

No they do not... and when I said "Matt 7:21-23 does talk about believers" was a typing error of mine, It's missing a "not" between "does" and "talk".
But you didn't answer me...

Do you think a believers will perish??? what differentiates the saved by the not saved then? Works???

 

[veteran]

Do you think a believers will perish??? what differentiates the saved by the not saved then? Works???

Do I think a believer on Christ can perish? Yes, IF... they fall away from Christ and instead knowingly serve the devil. Could such a thing happen? Well, who was Judas Iscariot???

 

[Sargento]

Judas had no faith ... he believed in what he saw (just like many Jews), and that is not Faith on the gospel... YOU KNOW THAT OUR FAITH MUST BE IN THE GOSPEL DON'T YOU??

He did not fall from believing, he was predestine to betray Jesus... he was never saved, nor he had faith.
What Judas did was the work of GOD so that Jesus might die to saves us all... that is no "falling" of a just that is pure predestination. Even before that betrayal Jesus called him a devil..


So what differentiates the saved from the not saved then?

 

[aspen]

Sargento - I think it is sickening to watch you preaching another gospel and dismissing people from the body of Christ who refuse to recognize your new teachings. You are out of step with the theology of the church for the past two thousand years. You are the person who has to make a case, not me and you have failed miserably.

 

[Sargento]

Aspen, I know you don't believe what I say even if I have the support of the prophets, the apostles, Jesus and GOD HIMSELF like I've showed you many times ... you prefer your two thousand year theology ... if you do not want to listen then don't... I'm not making you listen...
If it sickens you, well, just ignore it and show the love you preach... use your free will to love it then.

 

[veteran]

Judas had no faith ... he believed in what he saw (just like many Jews), and that is not Faith on the gospel... YOU KNOW THAT OUR FAITH MUST BE IN THE GOSPEL DON'T YOU??

He did not fall from believing, he was predestine to betray Jesus... he was never saved, nor he had faith.
What Judas did was the work of GOD so that Jesus might die to saves us all... that is no "falling" of a just that is pure predestination. Even before that betrayal Jesus called him a devil..


So what differentiates the saved from the not saved then?

Judas was originally one of Christ's chosen Apostles. Of course Jesus knew Judas would betray Him so the Scripture would be fulfilled, even as He said. But Christ did NOT... make Judas' choice for him.

And so far, not even Judas has been assigned to perish in the lake of fire, only Satan and his angels have. So we cannot judge whether Judas will be saved or not, for that is between him and The LORD only, just as it is with all born in the flesh.