"Free" Will

[Floyd]

Please read the OP very, very carefully!

Each and every person in the world is subject to spiritual and physical death (as in Adam all die), before conversion.

How do you know you are alive just because you gave your life to Jesus? Is that the Gospel of Salvation of the Bible?

Apparently you have not read or understood Romans 3:9-12 where God's assessment of the human race is that there is none that seek after Him, no not one. If there are none that seek after God, how can you? Are you the only one who is privileged to do this?

Truthfully, the only way anyone can be saved is summed up in John 6:44:

“ No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.”

The word “can” MEAN “power” this verse then can be read thusly: “No man “has the power” to come to me...”

The term “I gave myself to Christ” is a work that we do and is therefore contrary to Eph 2:9.

Do you still believe you are saved by works?

To God Be The Glory

I notice with interest you have taken each ref. out of context.
Your teaching is extreme Calvinist!
Floyd.

[SIZE=18pt]The legitimate and illegitimate "works" teachings in Calvinism.[/SIZE]




[SIZE=16pt]There is a powerful teaching abounding in Christendom, that all of us are "PREDESTINED" to be in one destination or another after death; often loosely termed "heaven or hell". This is based on the teachings of various Groups since the Reformation, which has an approx. date of AD 1530. Some purists state that the exact date is AD 1505 and linked to England's Henry 8th with some justification. The result of Henry's resistance to Rome was the Church of England (C of E). Leaving aside the internal political struggle in England, by those trying to restore The Roman Church, many church leaders were not content that the C of E was sufficiently radical in its separation from Roman Church's Doctrines.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]As Rome had become increasingly corrupt, and had reached the stage of selling "pardons" before a sin had been committed, and "post-mortem absolution" for a price; and many other perversities, the re-examination of "Doctrines" was logical. Martin Luther had already started the ball rolling by his declaration of "justification by faith in the finished work of Christ Jesus", and had put his life in danger with his affirmation at the Imperial Diet of Worms. He was destined to be burned alive by the RCC, but for the intervention of a rich and powerful German Prince.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]The dissatisfaction of some of the leaders of the C of E and elsewhere with the state of its teachings and doctrines, led to a Europe wide debate on particularly the [/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]Doctrine of Justification by Faith[/SIZE] [SIZE=16pt](in Christ). All Protestant thinkers obviously accepted that Rome's definition was/is corrupt, and from that beginning, many variations of doctrine emerged. The notable effect of Rome's dominance for approx. 1,200 years of the definition was/is the intensity of its re-evaluation! The many definitions, and as many men, since to now is bewildering, and many have become internationally known Names.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]There is no doubt that the many Definitions cannot all be correct. However, the Definitions adopted by various Groups have become the founding Articles for the Various Denominations. Many, if not most have become almost as powerfully defended as the corrupt RCC, with enflamed passions of their adherent in discussion and history.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Before moving into a discussion on the definition of “[/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]works[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]”, "[/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]election[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]"[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt] and "[/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]Salvation[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]",[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt] it is worth mentioning the writers view on the conduct of the participants of such debates. Where bad or threatening language is used, or where personal innuendo or obviously bad attitude is displayed, together with deliberate distortion of what has been said or written; then that person is disqualified from veracity, and has no qualification to be heard or debated! In the writers view, they are clearly not indwelt with the Spirit of Christ, but a counterfeit spirit of His Enemy! They have no place in honest debate! The above mentioned behaviour and attitude have been experienced by many, such is the passion of many participants, both current and in history.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]It is true to say, that no Name on earth has such effect on people and Satan's spirits, as the Name of Jesus! (Christ Jesus is His correct Title after His Resurrection). His Name provokes some to repent, some to swear, and others to wonder. That's not surprising as He was/is the Anointed of God the Father for purpose, and is now seated at the "Right Hand of The Majesty" in Heaven![/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Taking "[/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]Salvation[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]"[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt] first; The Biblical definition is clear. Acts 4:12: (KJV), "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved". This verse in context refers to Acts 4:10-11. [/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]The name in point is, Christ Jesus![/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]As regards "Election", to avoid repetition the following Links give clarity:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]The Call of God: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]The Elect Calvin onwards; [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]As regards "[/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]works[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]"[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt], Scripture is clear that all works of mankind as regards their Salvation "are as filthy rags" Isa. 64:6. That none are righteous, and that Christ Jesus has on the Cross of Calvary achieved what is the impossibility for men![/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]One of the great myths, and therefore confusions used by false teachers such as extreme Calvinists, is that of the definition of "works".[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]They say that any work by the individual to seek and find the Truth of Jesus the Christ, is works, and therefore invalidates that person and their seeking efforts! What a travesty of interpretation and intellect! They use Eph. 2:9 (Not of works, lest any man should boast), as their foundation Text, and construe it wrongly.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]In context, the verse clearly states that the "work" refers to Christ's on the Calvary Cross, and that it cannot be added to, or diminished. It is the ultimate "finished work"![/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Why then do some religions say that "works" cannot achieve Salvation? The short answer is because they either inadvertently or deliberately misinterpret Scripture, and confuse the "work" of seeking God/Christ with that of doing "good things", which suits their "Theology"![/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]God has made it clear that He [/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]WANTS [/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]people to [/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]work[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt] towards Him, to [/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]work[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt] at Scripture, to [/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]work[/SIZE] [SIZE=16pt]at prayer; and to find Him in Christ Jesus. The following verses from Scripture make the point![/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]In Scripture, there are a number of texts that show that God has pleasure in those that seek after Him:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Zeph. 2:3, Dan. 10:12, Heb. 11:6, Acts 17:27, Jer. 29:13, Rev. 22:17, and more besides. These show that "[/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]working[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]" [/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]towards knowing God is pleasurable to Him, and not as some say and teach, that it is a "works based activity", which is not allowed in their "rules"![/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]An incontrovertible point is made by Jesus Christ Himself when asked what the works of God are; "the works of God are that you believe in Him whom He has sent", (John 6:28-29)![/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]The [/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]"work" is done by Jesus,[/SIZE] [SIZE=16pt]the [/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]"Offer" is made by the Father[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt] to the world's people, [/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]we decide with our "freewill[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]"![/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]The conclusion of the matter is, as Martin Luther said, "Salvation is by faith in Christ Jesus"; which was the cry of Habakkuk ("the just shall live by faith"), in approx. BC 500, during a time of apostasy in Israel's history. Then as now, Satan has the Truth in denial, and as our Lord stated, "Satan is the prince of this world" but only for a short time![/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]The major "signal" for Christ-Ones to watch for, are [/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]the events affecting Israel! [/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]With many of men’s religions teaching that “the church is the new Israel[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]”, [/SIZE] [SIZE=16pt]Replacement Theology [/SIZE][SIZE=16pt] it is a "work" in itself to keep differentiating the Truth from the constant lie in this context alone![/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]The many and complex formulae concocted by men between Luther and now, and incorporated into the many "religions" of men can be safely ignored where they do not concur with the Holy Spirit. The Christ-One, (Christian True) can be at peace in the knowledge of the True definition of Salvation, from the Bible the Word of God![/SIZE]

 

[shturt678]

Thank you folks for caring!

I thought Calvinist believed in Free-will, and didn't believe in Free-will sort of thing? I know that non-modern Lutherans such as myself believe that all have an "Enslaved-will."

Old Jack

btw I know I should believe in "Free-will" because I really don't have a choice; however I don't.

 

[Floyd]

[SIZE=18pt]The legitimate and illegitimate "works" teachings in Calvinism.[/SIZE]




[SIZE=16pt]There is a powerful teaching abounding in Christendom, that all of us are "PREDESTINED" to be in one destination or another after death; often loosely termed "heaven or hell". This is based on the teachings of various Groups since the Reformation, which has an approx. date of AD 1530. Some purists state that the exact date is AD 1505 and linked to England's Henry 8th with some justification. The result of Henry's resistance to Rome was the Church of England (C of E). Leaving aside the internal political struggle in England, by those trying to restore The Roman Church, many church leaders were not content that the C of E was sufficiently radical in its separation from Roman Church's Doctrines.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]As Rome had become increasingly corrupt, and had reached the stage of selling "pardons" before a sin had been committed, and "post-mortem absolution" for a price; and many other perversities, the re-examination of "Doctrines" was logical. Martin Luther had already started the ball rolling by his declaration of "justification by faith in the finished work of Christ Jesus", and had put his life in danger with his affirmation at the Imperial Diet of Worms. He was destined to be burned alive by the RCC, but for the intervention of a rich and powerful German Prince.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]The dissatisfaction of some of the leaders of the C of E and elsewhere with the state of its teachings and doctrines, led to a Europe wide debate on particularly the [/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]Doctrine of Justification by Faith[/SIZE] [SIZE=16pt](in Christ). All Protestant thinkers obviously accepted that Rome's definition was/is corrupt, and from that beginning, many variations of doctrine emerged. The notable effect of Rome's dominance for approx. 1,200 years of the definition was/is the intensity of its re-evaluation! The many definitions, and as many men, since to now is bewildering, and many have become internationally known Names.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]There is no doubt that the many Definitions cannot all be correct. However, the Definitions adopted by various Groups have become the founding Articles for the Various Denominations. Many, if not most have become almost as powerfully defended as the corrupt RCC, with enflamed passions of their adherent in discussion and history.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Before moving into a discussion on the definition of “[/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]works[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]”, "[/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]election[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]"[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt] and "[/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]Salvation[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]",[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt] it is worth mentioning the writers view on the conduct of the participants of such debates. Where bad or threatening language is used, or where personal innuendo or obviously bad attitude is displayed, together with deliberate distortion of what has been said or written; then that person is disqualified from veracity, and has no qualification to be heard or debated! In the writers view, they are clearly not indwelt with the Spirit of Christ, but a counterfeit spirit of His Enemy! They have no place in honest debate! The above mentioned behaviour and attitude have been experienced by many, such is the passion of many participants, both current and in history.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]It is true to say, that no Name on earth has such effect on people and Satan's spirits, as the Name of Jesus! (Christ Jesus is His correct Title after His Resurrection). His Name provokes some to repent, some to swear, and others to wonder. That's not surprising as He was/is the Anointed of God the Father for purpose, and is now seated at the "Right Hand of The Majesty" in Heaven![/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Taking "[/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]Salvation[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]"[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt] first; The Biblical definition is clear. Acts 4:12: (KJV), "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved". This verse in context refers to Acts 4:10-11. [/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]The name in point is, Christ Jesus![/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]As regards "Election", to avoid repetition the following Links give clarity:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]The Call of God: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]The Elect Calvin onwards; [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]As regards "[/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]works[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]"[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt], Scripture is clear that all works of mankind as regards their Salvation "are as filthy rags" Isa. 64:6. That none are righteous, and that Christ Jesus has on the Cross of Calvary achieved what is the impossibility for men![/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]One of the great myths, and therefore confusions used by false teachers such as extreme Calvinists, is that of the definition of "works".[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]They say that any work by the individual to seek and find the Truth of Jesus the Christ, is works, and therefore invalidates that person and their seeking efforts! What a travesty of interpretation and intellect! They use Eph. 2:9 (Not of works, lest any man should boast), as their foundation Text, and construe it wrongly.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]In context, the verse clearly states that the "work" refers to Christ's on the Calvary Cross, and that it cannot be added to, or diminished. It is the ultimate "finished work"![/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Why then do some religions say that "works" cannot achieve Salvation? The short answer is because they either inadvertently or deliberately misinterpret Scripture, and confuse the "work" of seeking God/Christ with that of doing "good things", which suits their "Theology"![/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]God has made it clear that He [/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]WANTS [/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]people to [/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]work[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt] towards Him, to [/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]work[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt] at Scripture, to [/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]work[/SIZE] [SIZE=16pt]at prayer; and to find Him in Christ Jesus. The following verses from Scripture make the point![/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]In Scripture, there are a number of texts that show that God has pleasure in those that seek after Him:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Zeph. 2:3, Dan. 10:12, Heb. 11:6, Acts 17:27, Jer. 29:13, Rev. 22:17, and more besides. These show that "[/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]working[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]" [/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]towards knowing God is pleasurable to Him, and not as some say and teach, that it is a "works based activity", which is not allowed in their "rules"![/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]An incontrovertible point is made by Jesus Christ Himself when asked what the works of God are; "the works of God are that you believe in Him whom He has sent", (John 6:28-29)![/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]The [/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]"work" is done by Jesus,[/SIZE] [SIZE=16pt]the [/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]"Offer" is made by the Father[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt] to the world's people, [/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]we decide with our "freewill[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]"![/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]The conclusion of the matter is, as Martin Luther said, "Salvation is by faith in Christ Jesus"; which was the cry of Habakkuk ("the just shall live by faith"), in approx. BC 500, during a time of apostasy in Israel's history. Then as now, Satan has the Truth in denial, and as our Lord stated, "Satan is the prince of this world" but only for a short time![/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]The major "signal" for Christ-Ones to watch for, are [/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]the events affecting Israel! [/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]With many of men’s religions teaching that “the church is the new Israel[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]”, [/SIZE] [SIZE=16pt]Replacement Theology [/SIZE][SIZE=16pt] it is a "work" in itself to keep differentiating the Truth from the constant lie in this context alone![/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]The many and complex formulae concocted by men between Luther and now, and incorporated into the many "religions" of men can be safely ignored where they do not concur with the Holy Spirit. The Christ-One, (Christian True) can be at peace in the knowledge of the True definition of Salvation, from the Bible the Word of God![/SIZE]

 

[shturt678]

[SIZE=18pt][/SIZE]

The legitimate and illegitimate "works" teachings in Calvinism.

[SIZE=16pt]There is a powerful teaching abounding in Christendom, that all of us are "PREDESTINED" to be in one destination or another after death; often loosely termed "heaven or hell". This is based on the teachings of various Groups since the Reformation, which has an approx. date of AD 1530. Some purists state that the exact date is AD 1505 and linked to England's Henry 8th with some justification. The result of Henry's resistance to Rome was the Church of England (C of E). Leaving aside the internal political struggle in England, by those trying to restore The Roman Church, many church leaders were not content that the C of E was sufficiently radical in its separation from Roman Church's Doctrines.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]As Rome had become increasingly corrupt, and had reached the stage of selling "pardons" before a sin had been committed, and "post-mortem absolution" for a price; and many other perversities, the re-examination of "Doctrines" was logical. Martin Luther had already started the ball rolling by his declaration of "justification by faith in the finished work of Christ Jesus", and had put his life in danger with his affirmation at the Imperial Diet of Worms. He was destined to be burned alive by the RCC, but for the intervention of a rich and powerful German Prince.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]The dissatisfaction of some of the leaders of the C of E and elsewhere with the state of its teachings and doctrines, led to a Europe wide debate on particularly the [/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]Doctrine of Justification by Faith[/SIZE] [SIZE=16pt](in Christ). All Protestant thinkers obviously accepted that Rome's definition was/is corrupt, and from that beginning, many variations of doctrine emerged. The notable effect of Rome's dominance for approx. 1,200 years of the definition was/is the intensity of its re-evaluation! The many definitions, and as many men, since to now is bewildering, and many have become internationally known Names.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]There is no doubt that the many Definitions cannot all be correct. However, the Definitions adopted by various Groups have become the founding Articles for the Various Denominations. Many, if not most have become almost as powerfully defended as the corrupt RCC, with enflamed passions of their adherent in discussion and history.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Before moving into a discussion on the definition of “[/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]works[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]”, "[/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]election[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]"[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt] and "[/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]Salvation[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]",[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt] it is worth mentioning the writers view on the conduct of the participants of such debates. Where bad or threatening language is used, or where personal innuendo or obviously bad attitude is displayed, together with deliberate distortion of what has been said or written; then that person is disqualified from veracity, and has no qualification to be heard or debated! In the writers view, they are clearly not indwelt with the Spirit of Christ, but a counterfeit spirit of His Enemy! They have no place in honest debate! The above mentioned behaviour and attitude have been experienced by many, such is the passion of many participants, both current and in history.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]It is true to say, that no Name on earth has such effect on people and Satan's spirits, as the Name of Jesus! (Christ Jesus is His correct Title after His Resurrection). His Name provokes some to repent, some to swear, and others to wonder. That's not surprising as He was/is the Anointed of God the Father for purpose, and is now seated at the "Right Hand of The Majesty" in Heaven![/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Taking "[/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]Salvation[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]"[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt] first; The Biblical definition is clear. Acts 4:12: (KJV), "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved". This verse in context refers to Acts 4:10-11. [/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]The name in point is, Christ Jesus![/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]As regards "Election", to avoid repetition the following Links give clarity:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]The Call of God: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]The Elect Calvin onwards; [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]As regards "[/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]works[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]"[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt], Scripture is clear that all works of mankind as regards their Salvation "are as filthy rags" Isa. 64:6. That none are righteous, and that Christ Jesus has on the Cross of Calvary achieved what is the impossibility for men![/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]One of the great myths, and therefore confusions used by false teachers such as extreme Calvinists, is that of the definition of "works".[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]They say that any work by the individual to seek and find the Truth of Jesus the Christ, is works, and therefore invalidates that person and their seeking efforts! What a travesty of interpretation and intellect! They use Eph. 2:9 (Not of works, lest any man should boast), as their foundation Text, and construe it wrongly.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]In context, the verse clearly states that the "work" refers to Christ's on the Calvary Cross, and that it cannot be added to, or diminished. It is the ultimate "finished work"![/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Why then do some religions say that "works" cannot achieve Salvation? The short answer is because they either inadvertently or deliberately misinterpret Scripture, and confuse the "work" of seeking God/Christ with that of doing "good things", which suits their "Theology"![/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]God has made it clear that He [/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]WANTS [/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]people to [/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]work[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt] towards Him, to [/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]work[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt] at Scripture, to [/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]work[/SIZE] [SIZE=16pt]at prayer; and to find Him in Christ Jesus. The following verses from Scripture make the point![/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]In Scripture, there are a number of texts that show that God has pleasure in those that seek after Him:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Zeph. 2:3, Dan. 10:12, Heb. 11:6, Acts 17:27, Jer. 29:13, Rev. 22:17, and more besides. These show that "[/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]working[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]" [/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]towards knowing God is pleasurable to Him, and not as some say and teach, that it is a "works based activity", which is not allowed in their "rules"![/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]An incontrovertible point is made by Jesus Christ Himself when asked what the works of God are; "the works of God are that you believe in Him whom He has sent", (John 6:28-29)![/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]The [/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]"work" is done by Jesus,[/SIZE] [SIZE=16pt]the [/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]"Offer" is made by the Father[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt] to the world's people, [/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]we decide with our "freewill[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]"![/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]The conclusion of the matter is, as Martin Luther said, "Salvation is by faith in Christ Jesus"; which was the cry of Habakkuk ("the just shall live by faith"), in approx. BC 500, during a time of apostasy in Israel's history. Then as now, Satan has the Truth in denial, and as our Lord stated, "Satan is the prince of this world" but only for a short time![/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]The major "signal" for Christ-Ones to watch for, are [/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]the events affecting Israel! [/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]With many of men’s religions teaching that “the church is the new Israel[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]”, [/SIZE] [SIZE=16pt]Replacement Theology [/SIZE][SIZE=16pt] it is a "work" in itself to keep differentiating the Truth from the constant lie in this context alone![/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]The many and complex formulae concocted by men between Luther and now, and incorporated into the many "religions" of men can be safely ignored where they do not concur with the Holy Spirit. The Christ-One, (Christian True) can be at peace in the knowledge of the True definition of Salvation, from the Bible the Word of God![/SIZE]

Thank you for caring!

Thanks to ol' Mr. Luther, "Faith" is the door to salvation as God's grace is a gift right from the git go, ie, back to Adam.

Ol' Protestant Jack

 

[Jun2u]

Floyd

Here lies our differences.

You rely on the works of the scholars you follow for truths whereas, I on the other hand, rely on the guidance and teachings of the Bible by the Holy Spirit.

I do not know you or what is in your heart, and I can only tell where you stand in your faith by what you say, and obviously you think of me the same, as well.

I have found that the world have many ways of reading, and interpreting, and understanding the Bible. I follow the rules God had set forth in 2Ti 3:16; 1Co 2:13; and most importantly Mr 4:34. Not everyone know of these Scripture texts that we are to adhere to their teachings.

The Bible is a historical as well as a spiritual book, and therefore, must be spiritually discerned. It is impossible for anyone to understand the Bible by means of reading it literally.

For example, your answer and interpretation of John 6:28-29:
And I quote, “The “work” is done by Jesus, the “Offer” is made by the Father to the world's people, we decide with our “free will”!

My answer and interpretation:
The “Offer” is the same as the principle, “Many are called but few are chosen.” However; God comes to a world in which He calls the world the “valley of dry bones” (Eze 37) MEANING “a spiritually dead people!” Can dead people have “free will?” No. They are dead!

But you said, "we decide with our "free will." Who then is the king maker? According to your "free will" statement it is man who is the king maker, and I must admit contrary to Jn 6:44 which reads that God is the King Maker! Are you contending that you know more than God? What audacity and arrogance!

Have you read my post #97 on this thread about the Raising of Lazarus? If not please read it, you might get some knowledge what “free will” means.

THE EXCLUSIVE GOD DEMANDS AN EXCLUSIVE PEOPLE.

We choose God because He first chose us.

We love God because He first loved us.

We seek God because He first sought us (Mt.15:24).

We seek God because the Father is “drawing” us (Jo 6:44).

Doing “good works” in any form before conversion will not get anyone to heaven.

Eph 2:9 stands as read. There is no intonation at all that the word “works” refers to Christ's “work” on the Cross as you said, besides you can't take a plural word “works” and translate it as a singular word to fit “theology” which you
alluded to. If “works” is indeed related to Christ's work, then why would God add the phrase “lest any man should boast” unless the works were truly related to man's actions.

We don't have to look at false teachers such as extreme Calvinists to confuse the definition of “works” as you've said, rather all we have to do is look in the mirror.

Tell me, which Scripture was I out of context that you feel you could address me as an Extreme Calvinist? I will accept correction if found to be in error but only corrected through the Bible. Will you do likewise if you are found to be short in your interpretation?

To God Be The Glory

 

[Floyd]

• From Jun2u:

Floyd

Here lies our differences.

You are not qualified or knowledgeable enough to make firm statements re myself; so, in future do not do so; or you will go unanswered.

You rely on the works of the scholars you follow for truths whereas, I on the other hand, rely on the guidance and teachings of the Bible by the Holy Spirit.

You are wrong! The Bible is my first stop; followed by many refs. to the work of others.

I do not know you or what is in your heart, and I can only tell where you stand in your faith by what you say, and obviously you think of me the same, as well.

Except that you follow Beza (Calvinism): I don't: see: The Elect Calvin onwards;

I have found that the world have many ways of reading, and interpreting, and understanding the Bible. I follow the rules God had set forth in 2Ti 3:16; 1Co 2:13; and most importantly Mr 4:34. Not everyone know of these Scripture texts that we are to adhere to their teachings.

The Bible is a historical as well as a spiritual book, and therefore, must be spiritually discerned. It is impossible for anyone to understand the Bible by means of reading it literally.

So; you do as others tell you?

For example, your answer and interpretation of John 6:28-29:
And I quote, “The “work” is done by Jesus, the “Offer” is made by the Father to the world's people, we decide with our “free will”!

That's right!

My answer and interpretation:
The “Offer” is the same as the principle, “Many are called but few are chosen.” However; God comes to a world in which He calls the world the “valley of dry bones” (Eze 37) MEANING “a spiritually dead people!” Can dead people have “free will?” No. They are dead!

Your comments are wrong, full stop. Also, The "bones" text refers to Israel only!

But you said, "we decide with our "free will." Who then is the king maker? According to your "free will" statement it is man who is the king maker, and I must admit contrary to Jn 6:44 which reads that God is the King Maker! Are you contending that you know more than God? What audacity and arrogance!

What a strange and perverted comment! God is clearly, to use your words (the king maker) don't you remember His comment to Moses re Pharaoh?

Have you read my post #97 on this thread about the Raising of Lazarus? If not please read it, you might get some knowledge what “free will” means.

Your comment is wrong; Lazarus was raised by my Lord to fulfil Prophecy!

THE EXCLUSIVE GOD DEMANDS AN EXCLUSIVE PEOPLE.

We choose God because He first chose us.

We love God because He first loved us.

We seek God because He first sought us (Mt.15:24).

We seek God because the Father is “drawing” us (Jo 6:44).

Doing “good works” in any form before conversion will not get anyone to heaven.

Eph 2:9 stands as read. There is no intonation at all that the word “works” refers to Christ's “work” on the Cross as you said, besides you can't take a plural word “works” and translate it as a singular word to fit “theology” which you
alluded to. If “works” is indeed related to Christ's work, then why would God add the phrase “lest any man should boast” unless the works were truly related to man's actions.

This is mixed and almost incoherent ramble! The simple facts are; Satan rebelled against God in a past age, Adam was given chance to be faithful to God's friendship and instructions; he failed, as did Israel His "firstborn son"; so, in Christ "shall all be made alive", some to glory, some to perdition. Satan had/has freewill; as do we; how we/you use it is the key your/our future in eternity! These are simple facts (from Scripture), not from men!

We don't have to look at false teachers such as extreme Calvinists to confuse the definition of “works” as you've said, rather all we have to do is look in the mirror.

Tell me, which Scripture was I out of context that you feel you could address me as an Extreme Calvinist? I will accept correction if found to be in error but only corrected through the Bible. Will you do likewise if you are found to be short in your interpretation?

It is not for me to tell you detail of your error; only to say, you will find truth in Scripture (if your heart and mind are "stayed on Him")!


To God Be The Glory (Yes; Amen).

Edited by Jun2u, Today




Floyd.

 

[Jun2u]

From Floyd


Jun2u

You are not qualified or knowledgeable enough to make firm statements re myself; so, in future do not do so; or you will go unanswered.

A child of God will readily accept opinions and/or criticism instead of getting perturbed. I would prefer not to converse with you in the future because you are not a challenge enough to me in the things of God.

You are wrong! The Bible is my first stop; followed by many refs. to the work of others.

Really? How will you remember when making a conclusion whether the answer came from the Bible or from the many references on the work of others?

Except that you follow Beza (Calvinism): I don't: see: The Elect Calvin onwards;

Sorry to disappoint you I know of Calvin but I have no knowledge of what he believes. If he and I agree on some scripture texts it is only by coincidence.

So; you do as others tell you?

No. The Bible alone and in it's entirety is my only source for truths!

That's right!

So, you are taking the place of God as the king maker because you have the right of “free will!”

Your comments are wrong, full stop. Also, The "bones" text refers to Israel only!

Since the term “valley of dry bones” is found in the Old Testament” therefore; you believe the term refers only to Ancient Israel? FYI, each time we read the word “valley”, or “field”, or “wilderness”, most of the time they mean “the world” in metaphorical or parabolic language!

What a strange and perverted comment! God is clearly, to use your words (the king maker) don't you remember His comment to Moses re Pharaoh?

It is your strange and perverted response that you said man is the king maker because of his “free will”, and here you agree it is God who is the king maker. Isn't this a contradiction in terms?

Please, give scripture references to back up your comments. Not everyone can read your mind as to where the Bible references are located (haha pardon the pun).

Your comment is wrong; Lazarus was raised by my Lord to fulfil Prophecy!

The raising of Lazarus was given as an illustration only to prove man has no “free will” or choice in the matter of his salvation. He couldn't add or make any kind of contributions. As Lazarus was physically dead so man spiritually is dead, incapable of having “free will,” thus he needs a Savior. Jo 6:44.

This is mixed and almost incoherent ramble! The simple facts are; Satan rebelled against God in a past age, Adam was given chance to be faithful to God's friendship and instructions; he failed, as did Israel His "firstborn son"; so, in Christ "shall all be made alive", some to glory, some to perdition. Satan had/has freewill; as do we; how we/you use it is the key your/our future in eternity! These are simple facts (from Scripture), not from men!

I may sound a rambler to you but you are much more difficult to understand because you really have no knowledge about the things of God. I know because you cannot back up with Scripture those spiritual things you speak of. Am I suppose to believe what you say is true without the benefit of Scripture references?

Where do you read that Satan rebelled against God in a past age? Where, I pray tell? The Bible is silent about that. The first time we read about Satan was in the Garden of Eden!

When you speak of the “firstborn son” which are you inferring to, the Nation of Israel or the Lord Jesus?

See how you can get into trouble without the benefit of giving Scripture references?

Didn't you make a comment that you don't believe in “predestination?” Is not the term “some to glory and some to perdition”, a concept of predestination?

It is not for me to tell you detail of your error; only to say, you will find truth in Scripture (if your heart and mind are "stayed on Him")!

Is this last paragraph of yours the means by which you give all kinds of excuses so as to avoid the pressure of giving an account to the things you know nothing about?

Please refrain from accusing others of being a false teacher unless you are sure that what they teach is contrary to the Bible. I have not said this of you although I know there are many flaws in your theology!

May God give you wisdom.

To God Be The Glory

P.S. I'm glad Jesus chose some unlearned men to be His Apostles

 

[Floyd]

Free will


[SIZE=14pt]One of the many major differences between mankind and angels, is humans will deny the existence of God Almighty, and also Satan. It is implicit that one element is common to both earthly and heavenly creation, [/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]freewill[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]! It is therefore easy to understand that heavenly creation rejoices at the expulsion of such an adversary, after so long in their midst, and also in the knowledge that Satan's efforts will be short on earth. The question often asked by many over the years, is how could Almighty God allow Satan to exist after such rebellion, and even to be in His presence, to have place in heaven; and patrol earth (Job 1 and 2.) The answer undoubtedly lies in The Perfect Plan of Redemption, that only God could conceive, wherein the Perfect Love of God allows Satan to perform to his vile worst in heaven as well as earth after the Creation/Overthrow, all of which is observed by heavenly creation (Eph. 3:10.) Some argue that such a protracted process is wasteful, painful, and suffers great loss of life and environment. That is to miss the main point. It is of course easily possible for Almighty God to eliminate Satan. To do so however prematurely would not allow creation to see the depth of sin that Satan will eventually stoop to. Conversely, the Almighty will be seen by all creation to take the burden and result on Himself, in the form of Christ Jesus (Col. 1:20.) It is thereafter the response to Christ's death and suffering (in the place of all humankind,) which is the key to the individuals eternal destiny, on earth and also in heaven, in this Age, and eternity!

The main thrust for Satan's pernicious attention had been heaven's occupants and the tribes of Israel. Abraham was chosen by God! He was called "the friend of God," (Ex. 33:11, 2Chr. 20:7, Isa. 41:8, Jms. 2:23,) because his heart was against the idolatry of his father, and the nation Ur, which derived from Babylon! After Paul's declaration (Acts 28:25-28,) all the world's nations became the subject of Satan's attention; which showed in the Wisdom of Jehovah Zebaoth, that the failure of Satan at The Cross and the failure of Israel to accept Christ (Acts 28:26,) increased the eventual harvest for Christ / Jehovah. Most people on earth are fixated with their flesh life, which is natural enough. However, God has ordained that they are not content, and can only find rest, peace and understanding in Him, albeit in simple sincere trust, which most people find hard to give unless they encounter Christ, personally. Because all the efforts of Satan are eventually self defeating, and will be seen as such by heavenly and earthly creation, the Almighty in Christ will vanquish Satan, but not until heaven and earth have been reminded that Satan stands for deceit, destruction, suffering, and death, as opposed to the Love, Peace, Justice and Righteousness of Jehovah/Christ. After that reminder, Satan and his followers will be consigned to doom (Rev. 20:10.) All that remains for individuals at the present time (i.e. this Age) is to trust in God's work, in Christ Jesus. The timing of the above is in the hands of the Father only (Matt. 24:36,) and His timing is perfect (Matt. 5:48.) The perfect timing of God the Father means that Satan is defeated by perfect Love (a concept totally alien to mankind which means that Satan is defeated by Love, which is God (1 John 4:8-16!) Had Satan been destroyed at the time of his rebellion, none of the above could have come into play, and such action by the Almighty would have been seen by creation as dictatorial, and His plan of Love could not unfold to fruition. As the plan now unfolds, God will indeed be seen as Ultimate Love.[/SIZE]


Floyd.

 

[StanJ]

FREE WILL? Where do you read that? Is that biblical?

Tonight I will watch TV for awhile, go to bed at 10:00 PM and wake up at 7:00 AM in the morning. Fry two eggs, some bacon, toasts, and make a pot of coffee. After breakfast put on my golfing outfit and play golf, etc., etc., etc. Yes I have “free will.”

But in the things of God, especially “salvation” I have no free will. I am dead, that is “spiritually dead!” To understand this we must go back all the way to the creation of man;

When Adam was created not only was he given life, but that as long as he obeyed God, the potential to live forever was present, and that eternal life was possible through the spirit of Jesus.

Then came the test, and Adam who was a perfect being disobeyed God, I don't know the reason why anyone who had free will could disobey God but he did. The rest is history.

When Adam was thrown out from the Garden of Eden, God also took away from him the spirit of Jesus, thus Adam became subject to spiritual death. “The wages of sin is death.” The rest of humanity was infected with the sin of Adam and became subjected to “spiritual death.”

SALVATION AS SEEN IN THE RAISING OF LAZARUS

After telling Martha He is the resurrection and the life, Jesus arrives at the tomb of Lazarus and cried with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come forth.” Could Lazarus hear the command? No, he was physically dead! But Lazarus did come forth. What had to have happened? Jesus had to qualify him and reached into the tomb to give him life.

As Lazarus was physically dead so are we spiritually dead (impossible for us to understand spiritual things, unless given from above).

As Lazarus was physically deaf so are we spiritually deaf (our ears are dull in hearing the true Gospel).

As Lazarus was physically blind so are we spiritually blind (we cannot see the truths of the Bible).

As Lazarus was physically closed lip so are we spiritually dumb (we are incapable to speak spiritual things).

DID LAZARUS MAKE ANY KIND OF CONTRIBTION TOWARDS HIS RESURRECTION?
DID HE HAVE THE ABILITY TO ACCEPT OR DENY JESUS FROM RAISING HIM UP? SO TOO, WE CANNOT MAKE ANY KIND OF CONTRITION TOWARDS OUR SALVATION, BECAUSE WE DO NOT HAVE THE POWER TO CHOOSE! JESUS ALONE DID THE WORK TO SAVE US.

All the miracles performed by Jesus we read about in Scripture were not only to show He is God, but also to show through those miracles man's condition that he is a reprobate creature.

Tell me, what part in the raising of Lazarus did Lazarus make a contribution of? None... not one iota... Zilch!

If we do not understand and accept that we are spiritually dead, I'm afraid many of us will have a rude awakening on Judgment Day.

To God Be The Glory

This would be RT dogma NOT supported by scripture. Dead in the Bible, ALWAYS refers to the body, whether actually or effectually.
Understanding that is necessary to the whole message of salvation. It is no different than when John says we have eternal life in 1 John 5:13, but we still die as Luke teaches in Heb 9:27. We only receive Eternal Life, IF we endure to the end of our lives. God is not bound by time and neither is Biblical language unless we force it.

 

[shturt678]

Floyd

Here lies our differences.

You rely on the works of the scholars you follow for truths whereas, I on the other hand, rely on the guidance and teachings of the Bible by the Holy Spirit.

I do not know you or what is in your heart, and I can only tell where you stand in your faith by what you say, and obviously you think of me the same, as well.

I have found that the world have many ways of reading, and interpreting, and understanding the Bible. I follow the rules God had set forth in 2Ti 3:16; 1Co 2:13; and most importantly Mr 4:34. Not everyone know of these Scripture texts that we are to adhere to their teachings.

The Bible is a historical as well as a spiritual book, and therefore, must be spiritually discerned. It is impossible for anyone to understand the Bible by means of reading it literally.

For example, your answer and interpretation of John 6:28-29:
And I quote, “The “work” is done by Jesus, the “Offer” is made by the Father to the world's people, we decide with our “free will”!

My answer and interpretation:
The “Offer” is the same as the principle, “Many are called but few are chosen.” However; God comes to a world in which He calls the world the “valley of dry bones” (Eze 37) MEANING “a spiritually dead people!” Can dead people have “free will?” No. They are dead!

But you said, "we decide with our "free will." Who then is the king maker? According to your "free will" statement it is man who is the king maker, and I must admit contrary to Jn 6:44 which reads that God is the King Maker! Are you contending that you know more than God? What audacity and arrogance!

Have you read my post #97 on this thread about the Raising of Lazarus? If not please read it, you might get some knowledge what “free will” means.

THE EXCLUSIVE GOD DEMANDS AN EXCLUSIVE PEOPLE.

We choose God because He first chose us.

We love God because He first loved us.

We seek God because He first sought us (Mt.15:24).

We seek God because the Father is “drawing” us (Jo 6:44).

Doing “good works” in any form before conversion will not get anyone to heaven.

Eph 2:9 stands as read. There is no intonation at all that the word “works” refers to Christ's “work” on the Cross as you said, besides you can't take a plural word “works” and translate it as a singular word to fit “theology” which you
alluded to. If “works” is indeed related to Christ's work, then why would God add the phrase “lest any man should boast” unless the works were truly related to man's actions.

We don't have to look at false teachers such as extreme Calvinists to confuse the definition of “works” as you've said, rather all we have to do is look in the mirror.

Tell me, which Scripture was I out of context that you feel you could address me as an Extreme Calvinist? I will accept correction if found to be in error but only corrected through the Bible. Will you do likewise if you are found to be short in your interpretation?

To God Be The Glory

Looks good to me - AMEN!

Old Jack

btw all have an "enslaved-will" is also non-modern ELCA Lutheran.

 

[Floyd]

Looks good to me - AMEN!

Old Jack

btw all have an "enslaved-will" is also non-modern ELCA Lutheran.

The above is not my post Jack!!!
Floyd.

 

[shturt678]

Jun2u

You are not qualified or knowledgeable enough to make firm statements re myself; so, in future do not do so; or you will go unanswered.

A child of God will readily accept opinions and/or criticism instead of getting perturbed. I would prefer not to converse with you in the future because you are not a challenge enough to me in the things of God.

You are wrong! The Bible is my first stop; followed by many refs. to the work of others.

Really? How will you remember when making a conclusion whether the answer came from the Bible or from the many references on the work of others?

Except that you follow Beza (Calvinism): I don't: see: The Elect Calvin onwards;

Sorry to disappoint you I know of Calvin but I have no knowledge of what he believes. If he and I agree on some scripture texts it is only by coincidence.

So; you do as others tell you?

No. The Bible alone and in it's entirety is my only source for truths!

That's right!

So, you are taking the place of God as the king maker because you have the right of “free will!”

Your comments are wrong, full stop. Also, The "bones" text refers to Israel only!

Since the term “valley of dry bones” is found in the Old Testament” therefore; you believe the term refers only to Ancient Israel? FYI, each time we read the word “valley”, or “field”, or “wilderness”, most of the time they mean “the world” in metaphorical or parabolic language!

What a strange and perverted comment! God is clearly, to use your words (the king maker) don't you remember His comment to Moses re Pharaoh?

It is your strange and perverted response that you said man is the king maker because of his “free will”, and here you agree it is God who is the king maker. Isn't this a contradiction in terms?

Please, give scripture references to back up your comments. Not everyone can read your mind as to where the Bible references are located (haha pardon the pun).

Your comment is wrong; Lazarus was raised by my Lord to fulfil Prophecy!

The raising of Lazarus was given as an illustration only to prove man has no “free will” or choice in the matter of his salvation. He couldn't add or make any kind of contributions. As Lazarus was physically dead so man spiritually is dead, incapable of having “free will,” thus he needs a Savior. Jo 6:44.

This is mixed and almost incoherent ramble! The simple facts are; Satan rebelled against God in a past age, Adam was given chance to be faithful to God's friendship and instructions; he failed, as did Israel His "firstborn son"; so, in Christ "shall all be made alive", some to glory, some to perdition. Satan had/has freewill; as do we; how we/you use it is the key your/our future in eternity! These are simple facts (from Scripture), not from men!

I may sound a rambler to you but you are much more difficult to understand because you really have no knowledge about the things of God. I know because you cannot back up with Scripture those spiritual things you speak of. Am I suppose to believe what you say is true without the benefit of Scripture references?

Where do you read that Satan rebelled against God in a past age? Where, I pray tell? The Bible is silent about that. The first time we read about Satan was in the Garden of Eden!

When you speak of the “firstborn son” which are you inferring to, the Nation of Israel or the Lord Jesus?

See how you can get into trouble without the benefit of giving Scripture references?

Didn't you make a comment that you don't believe in “predestination?” Is not the term “some to glory and some to perdition”, a concept of predestination?

It is not for me to tell you detail of your error; only to say, you will find truth in Scripture (if your heart and mind are "stayed on Him")!

Is this last paragraph of yours the means by which you give all kinds of excuses so as to avoid the pressure of giving an account to the things you know nothing about?

Please refrain from accusing others of being a false teacher unless you are sure that what they teach is contrary to the Bible. I have not said this of you although I know there are many flaws in your theology!

May God give you wisdom.

To God Be The Glory

P.S. I'm glad Jesus chose some unlearned men to be His Apostles

Thank you for your response again!

Sorry bout that one, ie, loosely agreeing with Jun2u - like to agree to agree as most of the time forced to agree to disagree.

Old Jack

 

[Jun2u]

Old Jack

No worry, Bruddah! There is none perfect.

To God Be The Glory

 

[Madad21]

Larry D. Hart. Truth aflame : theology for the church in renewal;
"The bottom line is whether we want God to be God in his universe or whether we prefer to be. “The wicked man finds himself thus in the strange position of being in God’s universe, and yet he is neither God nor God’s servant.”

C. S. Lewis :
"There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, “Thy will be done,” and those to whom God says, in the end, “Thy will be done.” All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. To those who knock it is opened."

 

[shturt678]

Old Jack

No worry, Bruddah! There is none perfect.

To God Be The Glory

Thank you for your response!

One of these days I'll fully and completely agree to agree then I'll have the 'big one.' Spare me the mouth to mouth.

Old Jack

Appreciate you and your words!

 

[stevevw]

If you noticed even in one of your scriptures quoted [SIZE=12pt]Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?[/SIZE]
We have the ability to resist Gods will and do our own will. But if we submit to Gods will this is not losing our will to choose but choosing to do Gods will in our lives in the first place. Obedience is a choice and we can see that it leads to salvation. But it also doesnt mean that we will resist this sometimes and give into temptation.

 

[Floyd]

[SIZE=14pt]One of the many major differences between mankind and angels, is humans will deny the existence of God Almighty, and also Satan. It is implicit that one element is common to both earthly and heavenly creation, [/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]freewill[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]! It is therefore easy to understand that heavenly creation rejoices at the expulsion of such an adversary, after so long in their midst, and also in the knowledge that Satan's efforts will be short on earth. The question often asked by many over the years, is how could Almighty God allow Satan to exist after such rebellion, and even to be in His presence, to have place in heaven; and patrol earth (Job 1 and 2.) The answer undoubtedly lies in The Perfect Plan of Redemption, that only God could conceive, wherein the Perfect Love of God allows Satan to perform to his vile worst in heaven as well as earth after the Creation/Overthrow, all of which is observed by heavenly creation (Eph. 3:10.) Some argue that such a protracted process is wasteful, painful, and suffers great loss of life and environment. That is to miss the main point. It is of course easily possible for Almighty God to eliminate Satan. To do so however prematurely would not allow creation to see the depth of sin that Satan will eventually stoop to. Conversely, the Almighty will be seen by all creation to take the burden and result on Himself, in the form of Christ Jesus (Col. 1:20.) It is thereafter the response to Christ's death and suffering (in the place of all humankind,) which is the key to the individuals eternal destiny, on earth and also in heaven, in this Age, and eternity! Floyd.[/SIZE]

 

[shturt678]

If you noticed even in one of your scriptures quoted [SIZE=12pt]Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?[/SIZE]
We have the ability to resist Gods will and do our own will. But if we submit to Gods will this is not losing our will to choose but choosing to do Gods will in our lives in the first place. Obedience is a choice and we can see that it leads to salvation. But it also doesnt mean that we will resist this sometimes and give into temptation.

Thank you for caring!

Although all have an "Enslaved-will," one may and does resist His will, eg, Matt.23:37 for openers. However if we were able to reject His will then we would all have "Free-will" which we do not have.

Old Jack's view

No refute intended my brother Steve

 

[Floyd]

[SIZE=14pt]The controversy of “freewill”, versus “no freewill” in the matter of “Salvation in Christ Jesus”; is one of the most contentious subjects of the last 500 years. The re-examination of the “doctrines” of the Roman Church, forced by the “Protestants” has positioned this issue quite correctly at the forefront of the debate. There are many opinions, and as many Groups and teachings, with many “shades” of variation.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]For example, the extreme Calvinist states; “no person can make the decision to accept Christ Jesus, and His Salvation; it is God’s decision, not the individuals”.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]In the opinion of the writers, if that was the case, there would not be the need for a book called the Bible; which contains the Word and Message of God; or the Person of the Holy Spirit of God, whom Jesus called “the Spirit of Truth, the Comforter”, Who now works on the hearts of men and women all over the world![/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]There would not even be the need for people to have a brain, or the ability to think, as the destiny would already have been determined by God! Taking this concept further, what would even be the purpose of living, if one was only an automaton, a number, with a definite, forced destination?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]From this comment, it can be seen that the extreme view of Calvinists is without veracity, as [/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]God Almighty values highly the decisions we make which are to His Plan and Foreknowledge![/SIZE]

 

[shturt678]

Thank you for caring!

Again, all have an "Enslaved-will" due to God's power that all things happen by God's necessity (Acts4:28; Eph.1:11), and there can be no freedom of man as in "Free-will."

All you good folks can go on an on about man having "Free-will," however please share a passage to support or find fault with Eph.1:11 for openers?

Old Jack