Free Will
- Thread starter Dan Clarkston
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Bombastic
Member
In the context of who? All? All NY stood on their feet and cheered when the Yankees knocked the ball out of the park. Who are all in the context of what you quoted?
You obviously have no hesitation about blaspheming against the Spirit.
As for me, I'll hit ignore after posting this and look forward to the next day of the L-rd at my Reformed church.
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Bombastic
Member
In a purely humanistic sense, yes, any Calvinist ~ and hopefully anyone ~ would say that man has free will. But... Dan... there is a certain sense in which man's will is never free. How he uses his will always ~ always ~ depends on the state of his heart. Before a man is born again of the Spirit, his will is always to do the will of his father the devil, and after a man is born again of the Spirit, his will is always to do the will of his Father God. What Jesus said, as I quoted above, in John 6, 8, and 10 is Rock-solid... <smile> ...proof of that.
Well, yes, Pelagian (Pelagius argued with Augustine), and Arminian (Arminius what the contemporary of and objector to Calvin, as you know, I'm sure). But this is a case in point. Right, he cannot, but not wooden in the sense that he is physically or mentally incapable, but that he will not... which is an act of the will... because of the state of his heart.
No. <smile> There's.... all kinds, here, I think... <smile> I'm a five-point Calvinist, and Presbyterian (although there are different kinds of Presbyterians ranging from theologically liberal to theologically conservative, like every denomination), and Reformed.
Excellent question. See above. <smile> Actually it's not what it means that's the problem, it's strictly in what sense (or not) on thinks of it.
Right. No.
No need for arrogance or condescension...
Ahhh, except... "Scott-ism." Got it. <smile> I keed! I keed! <chuckles>
Everyone is influenced, on this very subject, one way or the other, even of they don't realize it. So... which one, exactly, I'm not sure, but... yes you dooooooo... <smile>
Agree. But as I have said many times, the real, central issue is not our will. There is... something in us... <smile> ...that drives our will. It always drives our will, and thereby we are caused to choose... one way or the other.
Grace and peace to you.
Your religion has blinded calvinists so they don't know Who.
Opposing doctrines of devils is what the Real Holy Spirit leads true believers to do.
It is quite hilarious that you would equate calvinist scripture twisting with teaching that comes from the Holy Spirit.
The old devil just doesn't know when he's whipped.
Yeah, you might learn something so running away is the best course of action.
You sure wouldn't want to listen to scripture references which expose calvinist as the heresy that it is.
Well then, go ahead and spell out GOD
It's not a sin to say GOD ya know.
We can also refer to Jesus as JESUS as their is no requirement to use His hebrew Name at all.
They... "done come too late..." Well that says a lot about you, it seems... LOL!
Murderer... You know, King David was a murderer... <smile>
John Calvin was not. He merely acknowledged that Servetus was guilty of heresy (which he was), and heresy was a crime punishable by death in Switzerland in those days. Calvin actually tried to persuade Servetus ~ pleaded with him, actually ~ to recant, but Servetus would not. But you know don't let anyone stop you from trying to rewrite history...
Grace and peace to you.
Bombastic
Member
Fresh air! I disagree but agree with what you agreed to. As in Romans 1? On the topic of predestination, the positive-negative schema is correct. G-d intervenes in the lives of the elect to salvation, meanwhile passing over the reprobate. G-d preordains exactly what the reprobate want: to stand before the Sovereign L-rd. On the other hand, the positive-positive schema is unorthodox, defining predestination as G-d electing some to salvation and others to hell. The tension obviously surfaces from the reprobates' struggle w/ identity. There's something about peculiar people that are not edifying and refuse to exegete systematically rather than selectively.
And yes, I am familiar with the history of Jacob Arminius and his followers. When I say followers, I mean it in the same derogatory way as those first called Christians in Antioch. The same could be said about Luther, Calvin, and before them Paul, Apollos, etc.
We use these umbrella terms to convey the doctrines of each school of thought rather than spend tons of computer paper in digital form to write out systematically what each believes. We assume that if consistent with each school of thought, then the beliefs are more common than any individual might themselves admit (nothing new under the sun).
The same charge towards any of the soteriological schools of thought could be made towards any denomination by definition that professes the ecumenical creeds. By Sola Scriptura we do not believe the creeds in themselves are authoritative or the councils, etc., that had written them, those blasted Niceans! But rather, we believe the truth from scripture that the creeds emphasize is essential to our faith.
I was from the OPC @PinSeeker but moved to another state where there was no OPC planted. I now am a member of a conservative Lutheran synod that emphasizes personal piety. The transition was easy because of the Lutheran emphasis on monergism and the Five Solas. Sometimes, I hear others in my church exclaim, "Those blasted Calvinists!" For history's sake, Lutherans first called us those blasted Calvinists in the spirit of Antioch.
And @PinSeeker, arrogant? I am Kong!
All j/king aside.
Soli Deo Gloria!
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Bombastic
Member
Not only that but history portrays Servetus as somebody "creepy." Servetus stalked Calvin across national borders (obviously, he was obsessed and an opponent). Calvin requested the civil magistrates at the time use green wood when the civil magistrates condemned Servetus to death, a fate to which Calvin was powerless to thwart. Green wood was considered merciful because the smoke inhalation would kill before the flames touched the flesh.
Come on, people, let's go into the Salem Witch Trials! What's wrong with burning witches like tiki torches?
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Those in abiding in Christ choosing to continually submit themselves to the leading of the Holy Spirit based on God's Word are in fact free.
The devil is in great fear of people discovering they can turn from darkness and walk right out of the world in to abiding in Christ which is why satan set up all the false religions such as calvinism, catholicism, momonism, etc etc so he can give man a way to "think" he's doing right and serving God but still be under demonic deception and still be sent to hell when they die.
All else aside in this conversation: did the Word create man before the fall?
Yes, I have better sense than to follow teachings from a murder.
The difference being David repented and received cleansing and did not continue in murder.
John Calvin said in his writings that he had no regrets about having people whacked so he continued in his sin and is burning in the fires of hell right now because he lived after the flesh walking in darkness rather then
Besides, I follow Jesus Christ, you should be doing the same rather than looking to men to lead you.
No, he put a hit out on the guy for refusing to bow down and follow calvinist heresy
John Calvin learned that from the catholics. He was just trying to keep up with the jones as it were trying to let everyone know his new religion means bidness, just like the catholics.
If a fella is leading a new upstart religion, ya gotta compete with the catholics ya know - since they out whackin people for not believing their false doctrine, Calvin thought we gotta whack some folks that don't believe calvinist false doctrine too!
If you would just accept what the Lord said in Genesis...
2 Timothy 2:23
foolish and unlearned questions avoid
Hilarious, thanks for the laugh.
I know it's been a long road for calvinists to try and white wash and hide the dirty deeds of their boy John Calvin.
It's gotta be exhausting trying to prop up a false religious system. I have no sympathy for ya
<chuckles>
Among other things, sure.
God predestines some ~ not all ~ to be conformed to the image of His Son (Romans 8, Ephesians 1). There is no other predestination in the Bible. In Romans 1, as you know, I'm sure, Paul says He "gives up" some, "gives them over to their own selfish desires passions of the flesh"... lets them have what they want and choose, as it were. These are the folks that remain dead in their sin and thus children of wrath (Ephesians 2:1-3).
And by the same token, there is only one group of folks classified as elect of God; it's the same group of folks predestined to be conformed to Christ's image, those chosen before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-5), the same group of folks that receive ~ by His willing, not ours ~ His mercy and compassion, which He gives to some but not to others, not depending on man's willing or working but on His will alone (Romans 9:14-18).
The fact is God has created for noble use as opposed to those He has created for common use (Romans 9:22-24). The former He calls (not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles), the latter He does not.
And, back to Romans 8, "those whom He foreknew..." ~ fore-loved, in the same sense as what John says in 1 John 4:19, "we love because He first loved us" ~ "... He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified."
I mean, there really is no debate; it is what it is.
Right, set free by God Himself, which is a great theme of the Bible, Old Testament and New. As Paul says, "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." (Romans 8:1-4).
The devil, Dan, can do nothing outside the purview of God. None of those (Calvinism, Catholicism, Mormonism, etc) are religions at all. One of them, though, is more holding to the truth of the Bible than others, though, for sure... <smile> ...which was the very purpose of the Reformation, actually, to reclaim true Christianity and restore it to its Biblical roots. Sola scriptura, as it were, which is not to say no other great things have ever been written or there are no authoritative things to be found in other writings, but that the only absolutely authoritative writing is God's Word, the Bible... Scripture.
Right.
Indeed.
Grace and peace to all.
Bombastic
Member
Right, it seemingly bewilders people at times, like in Bible study when I say G-d hates "my name." Then I follow up with G-d loves His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ. My faith is in G-d, who transforms me through a lifetime of sanctification into the image of His Son. Point of emphasis: cling to what is good and reject what is not while persevering in faith to the last day. Some cats here advocate for the "restoration" of the prefall image of the first Adam (proven unrighteous) rather than the last Adam, the Son of G-d. Adam should have crushed the head of the serpent, undoubtedly, and really today we should consider what that means in a post-resurrection context.
<chuckles>
Among other things, sure.
God predestines some ~ not all ~ to be conformed to the image of His Son (Romans 8, Ephesians 1). There is no other predestination in the Bible. In Romans 1, as you know, I'm sure, Paul says He "gives up" some, "gives them over to their own selfish desires passions of the flesh"... lets them have what they want and choose, as it were. These are the folks that remain dead in their sin and thus children of wrath (Ephesians 2:1-3).
And by the same token, there is only one group of folks classified as elect of God; it's the same group of folks predestined to be conformed to Christ's image, those chosen before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-5), the same group of folks that receive ~ by His willing, not ours ~ His mercy and compassion, which He gives to some but not to others, not depending on man's willing or working but on His will alone (Romans 9:14-18).
The fact is God has created for noble use as opposed to those He has created for common use (Romans 9:22-24). The former He calls (not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles), the latter He does not.
And, back to Romans 8, "those whom He foreknew..." ~ fore-loved, in the same sense as what John says in 1 John 4:19, "we love because He first loved us" ~ "... He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified."
I mean, there really is no debate; it is what it is.
Now some like to say, G-d loves you (or ye and all or y'all!) indiscriminately or without prejudice! Wow, I don't even love myself! Matter of fact, I can't stand my "self" most often. Are we not to be animated by the Spirit (Ezekiel 36:25-27) rather than the soul (Colossians 2)?
"I mean, there really is no debate; it is what it is."
I'm glad you made your presence known here @PinSeeker. Your eloquent and orthodox responses are encouraging and revitalizing.
To me, if any doctrine doesn't end in Soli Deo Gloria, it should be rightfully rejected. That is, rather than championing man.
Having said that, I thank G-d you are an instrument of His hand (orthodox = true and correct in the context of doctrine). Though the question at times is whether it's the rod or the staff! Stick around here; I'm rather new on this board.
G-d bless!
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Maybe He decided to not predestine YOU?
Calvinists are like moslems in that they can't even know if they are saved or not in their belief system until after they die. Sadly calvinists and moslems both go south
Right, and man has to decide if he is going to accept the Lord and once they get saved they have to decide if they are going to remain in Christ.
Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Galatians 6:7-8 (see Gen 8:22)
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
God gave man free will... if man chooses to turn and walk away from the Lord, God will let them do so.
Romans 1:28
they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do what ought not to be done
Man shall reap what he sows so satan's game is just like it was in the garden of eden which is to come around and provide alternative ways of believing that oppose what the Lord says.
Calvinists mock God by claiming man does not reap what he sows as they claim if the "elect" walking in sin they would not reap corruption. This is why we hear about those claiming to be "elect" living in sin as this is where the false doctrines of eternal security / OSAS came from.
All of these carnal man made religions are void of Truth as they teach the lies of the devil rather than the Truth of God's Word.
The reformation was a failure as they traded false doctrine for more false doctrine as they FAILED to return to the Doctrine of Christ as taught in God's Word.
There ya go, gotta keep the door open to extra biblical writings not from the Holy Spirit.
That's another trick of the devil is to get people to believe writings outside of God's Word are "authoritative"
Calvinist have been taught to do this concerning the murder in John Calvin's heart:
You should upgrade and get some faith in the True GOD.... He answers to the might Name of Jesus Christ.
It's not a sin. It's OK to go ahead and type out GOD
Again, very telling...
Ah, so man saves himself, and keeps himself. Yeah, no, and no. "...it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, Qho has mercy..." (Romans 9:16) And, "...if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace" (Romans 11:6).
Obedience, Dan, is an act of the will, which is a function, at any given time, of the state of the heart. A man cannot change his own heart from stone to flesh. As Ezekiel, in Ezekiel 11:19-20 and 36:24-27) quotes God Himself saying, "I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules." This is how we are saved, Dan.
Yes, I've said this very thing... Everyone gets exactly as He chooses. But again, it is not firstly about his will, but his heart. Man always chooses according to His heart, according to his spirit, according to what he is in his innermost being.
Calvinists make no such "claim" or assertion. Good Calvinists, anyway... <chuckles> ...those who understand what John Calvin ~ and Augustine over a thousand years before Calvin ~ taught and wrote.
And here is the false dichotomy, the total disconnect in this line of... "thought." If one is a member of God's elect, and has been born again of the Spirit, he no longer walks in sin, but according to the Spirit.
Ah, OSAS... <chuckles> If one is born again of the Spirit, Dan, there is then therefore no condemnation for sin ~ consequences, for sure, but no condemnation ~ because they are in Christ Jesus. This is Romans 8:1. And if one is in Christ, nothing ~ nothing ~ can separate him from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord, which God, through Paul, assures us in Romans 8:39. And, as Peter says, his inheritance is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for him, who by God’s power is being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1:4-5).
Such obstinance and self-deception...
So you think there's no other good things written anywhere... hmmm... <chuckles> Yeah, only Scripture is Scripture, only God's Word is God's Word, and is thus truly authoritative. Sola Scriptura, you know, which is... one of the five Solas the Reformation was based on...
No, but contain authoritative things... they are not authoritative in and of themselves in the sense that God's Word is.
Again, such willful idiocy and ignorance...
Grace and peace to you, Dan.
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Bombastic
Member
Can't see who or the content you're responding to because of the "ignore" feature. But it seems you're responding to ad hominem or argumentum hominem paleae attacks. There are a lot of "irreconcilable" personal issues there in the responses you're responding to, @PinSeeker. People get mean when approached by the true sovereign L-rd אֲדֹנָי.
I hyphenate in fear and reverence. It causes me to pause; you're more patient than I am. What's a hyphen? It has stopped me from taking opponent heads off. I know the strength that I have and what provokes me to anger. It's best I keep your opponent on ignore.
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