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Freedom in Christ!

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by aspen, Sep 18, 2011.

  1. Rach1370

    Rach1370 New Member

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    Okay, we'll have to disagree then. I think scripture absolutely proves you wrong, and you think it proves me wrong. I suppose we'll just have to wait and see....
    I do have to wonder, that if no one is going to hell, then why does it exist, and why Jesus, more than anyone else in the bible, speak of it, and of people going to it? Unless there is going to be wailing and gnashing of teeth in heaven....
  2. Duckybill

    Duckybill New Member

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    So Buzz and Jiggy, are you saying that everyone will be saved? Is that a difficult question?
  3. Buzzfruit

    Buzzfruit New Member

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    Here is one example in which the first and second resurrection are mentioned. Those in verse 4 in boldface are those who will be in the first resurrection. And those in verse 5 in undernine are the rest of those who died who will live again that were not in the first resurrection.

    Revelation 20:4-5 (ASV)
    [sup]4 [/sup]And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    [sup]5 [/sup]The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished. This is the first resurrection.

    The fact that a first resurrection is named automatically tells us that there is will be at least two resurrections.
  4. Rach1370

    Rach1370 New Member

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    Yeah, but not to everlasting life....

    [14] Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. [15] And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
    (Revelation 20:14-15 ESV)
  5. Robbie

    Robbie New Member

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    There's a lot of freedom in Christ... not much in christianity... haha
  6. Buzzfruit

    Buzzfruit New Member

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    The verse that I post does not say that they will be condemned......it says they will live again. It does not make sense to raise someone from the dead only to kill them again. So those who will be in the second resurrection will be given a chance to accept salvation, they won't simply be killed immediately after they are resurrected.....God is not illogical and unmerciful, though many of us make Him out to be that way. Here are another examples of second resurrection.

    A vision of the resurrection of those in the House of Israel that are now dead: the second resurrection. Notice that Spirit of God will be given to them, which they never had before they died.

    Ezekiel 37:1-28 (KJV)
    [sup]1 [/sup]The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
    [sup]2 [/sup]And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
    [sup]3 [/sup]And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
    [sup]4 [/sup]Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
    [sup]5 [/sup]Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
    [sup]6 [/sup]And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
    [sup]7 [/sup]So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
    [sup]8 [/sup]And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
    [sup]9 [/sup]Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
    [sup]10 [/sup]So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
    [sup]11 [/sup]Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
    [sup]12 [/sup]Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
    [sup]13 [/sup]And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
    [sup]14 [/sup]And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.
    [sup]15 [/sup]The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
    [sup]16 [/sup]Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
    [sup]17 [/sup]And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
    [sup]18 [/sup]And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
    [sup]19 [/sup]Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
    [sup]20 [/sup]And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
    [sup]21 [/sup]And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
    [sup]22 [/sup]And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
    [sup]23 [/sup]Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
    [sup]24 [/sup]And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
    [sup]25 [/sup]And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
    [sup]26 [/sup]Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
    [sup]27 [/sup]My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
    [sup]28 [/sup]And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

    The Holy Spirit will be given to them symbolized by the replacing of their heart of stone (the old nature) with a heart of flesh (the New Nature).

    Ezekiel 11:19-20 (ASV)
    [sup]19 [/sup]And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them a heart of flesh;
    [sup]20 [/sup]that they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

    Having hope in God of the resurrections

    Acts 24:15 (ASV)
    [sup]15 [/sup]having hope toward God, which these also themselves look for, that there shall be a resurrection both of the just and unjust.

    Even the people of Nineveh that repented when Jonah warnd them what would happen to them if they continued what they were doing will be among those in the second resurrection. They will have harsh words against the Jews of Jesus' day because the Jews rejected Jesus, but the people of Nineveh listen to one of God's prophets.

    Matthew 12:41-42 (ASV)
    [sup]41 [/sup]The men of Nineveh shall stand up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, a greater than Jonah is here.
    [sup]42 [/sup]The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
    In Matthew 11: 23 Jesus says if the works that He did among the Jews were done back in the days of Lot in Sodom, the people have repented and would last for many generations to His day. Though they were wicked they would have repented. In effect Jesus is saying the people of His day were worse than the people of Sodom and Gomorrah.

    Matthew 11:23 (ASV)
    [sup]23 [/sup]And thou, Capernaum, shalt thou be exalted unto heaven? thou shalt go down unto Hades: for if the mighty works had been done in Sodom which were done in thee, it would have remained until this day.

    All those people mentioned above will be resurrected then the Spirit of God will be given to them. Many people have died throughout history that have never heard about Christianity, (the unborn child that was aborted for example) have never read the Bible, have never heard about Jesus and gospel will be among those in the second resurrection. So just because some of us believe that they should be condemned does not mean that is what God will do.
  7. Rach1370

    Rach1370 New Member

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    You're taking a couple of verses and saying "see, it doesn't say here there damned, so no one is ever damned". You're making a presupposition based on one passage, neglecting all the other passages that tell us not all will be saved...that there is a place for those who do not call Jesus Lord...that there is a sense of urgency to the gospel...because there is no second chance.

    And no, God is not unmerciful, although He would be if He allowed unrepentant sinners into His house to mess with His children.

    Below are some passages that spefically talk of the damnation of the unrepentant:

    [The Final Judgment]
    [31] “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. [32] Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. [33] And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. [34] Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. [35] For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, [36] I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ [37] Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? [38] And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? [39] And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ [40] And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’
    [41] “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. [42] For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, [43] I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ [44] Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ [45] Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ [46] And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
    (Matthew 25:31-46 ESV)

    [The Judgment at Christ's Coming]
    [5] This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering—[6] since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, [7] and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels [8] in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. [9] They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, [10] when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed. (2 Thessalonians 1:5-10 ESV)

    [9] And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, [10] he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. [11] And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.” (Revelation 14:9-11 ESV)

    Do you still really think the bible doesn't talk about some people being damned? As Christians we should pray fervently that many will be saved, and take the gospel to as many as we can....but ultimately? God is the judge, and He has told us in advance that many will not be saved.
  8. Buzzfruit

    Buzzfruit New Member

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    So what you are saying is that I should believe that they will be dammed even though it does not even indicate that they will, is that it?

    There is no presupposition on my part each of those scriptures (which you cut out) speaks for itself. Ezekiel 37:1-28 and Ezekiel 11:19-20 speaks about those of the house of Israel who are dead; they will live again and the Holy Spirit given to them. No damnation there.

    Acts 24:15 mentioned the hope of the resurrection of the just and the unjust. No damnation mentioned there.

    Matthew 12:41-42 talked about the people of Nineveh rising up with those of Jesus' generation. And the only condemnation that is mentioned is that the people of Nineveh will condemn those of Jesus' generation. Meaning that they will criticize them for not believing Jesus. But no domination by God of any of those two groups.

    And in Matthew 11:23 Jesus actually indirectly said something good about the people of Sodom. That if He had spoken to them there repentance would have lasted up to that generation. So no damnation there either.

    God knows what He is doing. God allows many to be ignorant so that when the time is right He will have mercy on them. Notice the word ALL in verse 23.

    Romans 11:29-32 (ASV)
    [sup]29 [/sup]For the gifts and the calling of God are not repented of.
    [sup]30 [/sup]For as ye in time past were disobedient to God, but now have obtained mercy by their disobedience,
    [sup]31 [/sup]even so have these also now been disobedient, that by the mercy shown to you they also may now obtain mercy.
    [sup]32 [/sup]For God hath shut up all unto disobedience, that he might have mercy upon all.

    He will raise them from the dead in the second resurrection. He will them freely offer His Holy Spirit to them, and in my opinion most will accept it and recieve His Spirit. They will live as children of God and at some point they will enter the kingdom of God that same way those who were glorified at Jesus' second return. The few who reject God will suffer the second death where there will be no resurrection from the dead.

    Matthew 25:31-46 is talking about a different time period. I don't have time to explain it all but basically, that judgment period will begin long after the second resurrection.......it will begin when the millennium ends. And it will last for an unspecified period of time.....perhaps a 100 years. But however long it last at the end of it a final judgment will be rendered....it's what the Bible calls the separating the sheep from the goats.
    They will be given an unspecified period of time to live there life. But this time there minds will be open or at least Satan will not be there to deceive them.

    Revelation 14:9-11 says the smoke of their torment......it does not say that these people will be torment forever and ever......but the smoke will assented from age to age. And judgment does not automatically means a bad thing. Judgment can be good or bad and it does not necessarily mean condemned either. The Bible tells us that judgment has already began with the Church…..we are as we speak being judged by God. So Revelation 14:9-11 is speaking of a period of judgment that will take place on the Earth in a certain place and will continue throughout the millennium, and will culminate at the white throne judgment.

    As far as I am concern I thank God for His limitless mercy towards unbelievers. And I can confidently present good news to any friend or family member of a loved one that have died as an unbeliever….. that that person will live again. They will live again, but in a better world in which there will be no crime, no war, no poor, no racism and so on. A world in which as the Bible says, the Earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the water covers the sea.