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Buzzfruit

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Oh, -- so Hitler will be in heaven! Sweet, -- I think I'd rather be somewhere else.

First thing: Nowhere in the Bible was Heaven promise to us…….the Earth is where we all will live, including Jesus. Even the Father will come and live with man. The second thing: Hitler will be in the second resurrection along with the vast majority of humanity. And if you refuse to forgive people like Hitler, Saddam and Mussolini for example, then there will only be one place for you......to be cause into Hell.
 

Rach1370

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Jesus died for everyone....and not just those who repented. All people's sins have been forgiven. It just means that not everyone has repented.

2 Corinthians 5:15 (Darby)
[sup]15 [/sup]and he died for all, that they who live should no longer live to themselves, but to him who died for them and has been raised.
2 Corinthians 5:14 (GW)
[sup]14 [/sup]Clearly, Christ's love guides us. We are convinced of the fact that one man has died for all people. Therefore, all people have died.

Yes, it often says that Jesus came to 'save the world' or that he died for 'all'....but then it goes on to say that only a few will be saved, that only those who repent will be saved. So...where do we go with this? Clearly, we go this way....the offer of Jesus, his grace, is to all nations, to all men. But not all men will accept it and repent.
Of course we could also take a further step back and consider this....God offers both Efficacious and common grace to the world. The first sort is saving grace, the second is general blessings on the world...the sun comes up, the rain falls, the crops grow, our cells continue to divide...etc. One can also then consider the ramifications and benefits that have come to the whole world through Jesus. Let's face it, for all that many deny him, Jesus is the most influential person in the history of mankind...we even base our calendar around him! The democracy we have today is due to Christians. We go everywhere under the sun, taking both gospel and aid and support. We get out into communities, teach, build, support, love. And while God waits to bring in the full number of believers, His wrath is held off. These are all great benefits....to all mankind. So we can consider the bible true (as it always is!) when it says Jesus came for all men. We can also consider it true that not all will have eternal life with Jesus...not all will repent and be saved.
 

Buzzfruit

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Sweet, -- I'd rather be where evil is not. And if that's your version of "heaven", then I choose the "other".


BibleScribe

Your version is that you are going to Heaven when the Bible tells us Earth is where we will live. I would suggest to you to study the scriptures a lot more and pay less attention to what you might hear from the pulpit. Because the Bible clearly states that the unrepentant dead will be resurrected.

Yes, it often says that Jesus came to 'save the world' or that he died for 'all'....but then it goes on to say that only a few will be saved, that only those who repent will be saved. So...where do we go with this? Clearly, we go this way....the offer of Jesus, his grace, is to all nations, to all men. But not all men will accept it and repent.
Of course we could also take a further step back and consider this....God offers both Efficacious and common grace to the world. The first sort is saving grace, the second is general blessings on the world...the sun comes up, the rain falls, the crops grow, our cells continue to divide...etc. One can also then consider the ramifications and benefits that have come to the whole world through Jesus. Let's face it, for all that many deny him, Jesus is the most influential person in the history of mankind...we even base our calendar around him! The democracy we have today is due to Christians. We go everywhere under the sun, taking both gospel and aid and support. We get out into communities, teach, build, support, love. And while God waits to bring in the full number of believers, His wrath is held off. These are all great benefits....to all mankind. So we can consider the bible true (as it always is!) when it says Jesus came for all men. We can also consider it true that not all will have eternal life with Jesus...not all will repent and be saved.

That statemnt is false.
 

BibleScribe

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Your version is that you are going to Heaven when the Bible tells us Earth is where we will live. I would suggest to you to study the scriptures a lot more and pay less attention to what you might hear from the pulpit. Because the Bible clearly states that the unrepentant dead will be resurrected.


...



You can keep Hitler and all the murderers throughout world history (including the chief murderer) with you in eternity. I plan to be where these aren't, -- in whatever venue.


BibleScribe




And a note to Rach

You are exactly correct in your understanding. :)


BibleScribe
 

Buzzfruit

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You can keep Hitler and all the murderers throughout world history (including the chief murderer) with you in eternity. I plan to be where these aren't, -- in whatever venue.


BibleScribe




And a note to Rach

You are exactly correct in your understanding. :)


BibleScribe

You have a lot to learn about what the Bible says and God's mercy but you are not ready for that at this time.
 

Rach1370

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That statemnt is false.


Have you even read your bible?

[13] “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. [14] For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. (Matthew 7:13-14 ESV)

[3] No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. (Luke 13:3 ESV)

So, tell me, how can my statement be false, if I merely repeated what is clearly written in scripture??
 

Buzzfruit

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Have you even read your bible?

[13] “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. [14] For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. (Matthew 7:13-14 ESV)

[3] No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. (Luke 13:3 ESV)

So, tell me, how can my statement be false, if I merely repeated what is clearly written in scripture??

That verse does not say only a few will be saved.....it only says few finds it. And how are those who find it are able to? Because God has granted them repentance.

2 Timothy 2:23-26 (ESV)
[sup]23 [/sup]Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels.
[sup]24 [/sup]And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil,
[sup]25 [/sup]correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,
[sup]26 [/sup]and they may escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

John 6:44 (GW)
[sup]44 [/sup]People cannot come to me unless the Father who sent me brings them to me. I will bring these people back to life on the last day.

But millions of people or as John said, "no man could number out of every Nation.." will one day turn to God.

Revelation 7:9-10 (ASV)
[sup]9 [/sup]After these things I saw, and behold, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of every nation and of all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, and palms in their hands;
[sup]10 [/sup]and they cry with a great voice, saying, Salvation unto our God who sitteth on the throne, and unto the Lamb.

And this number does not even include those who will repent during the millenium or those in the second resurrection.
 

Rach1370

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So, you're a Universalist then? You believe the Bible teaches that eventually God will bring all to Him in repentance?
What about all who have already died, and died in rebellion? Do they get a second chance after death?

I'm sorry, it just doesn't add up with what scripture tells us. Do I believe that people are unable to seek God and repentance alone? Yep. Do I believe that God reaches for us, opens our ears to hear and hearts to believe? Yep. Do I believe He does that for everyone? Nope.

[10] And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, [11] though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—[12] she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” [13] As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
[14] What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! [15] For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” [16] So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. [17] For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” [18] So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
[19] You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” [20] But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” [21] Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? [22] What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, [23] in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— (Romans 9:10-23 ESV)
 

Perspectives

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Spot on Rach! Rev. 5:9 says by the blood we (some) were redeemed to God "out of" every tribe and tongue and nation, not everyone, not even most, sad to say. Mat.13:44 teaches a parable about a treasure (His people) in a field (the world) and how He sacrificed all for the treasured ones in the field. He will have a remnant, He always has. Perhaps 10%, which would shine a very bright light on the utimate purpose of the tithe. No portion of scripture says this directly, not trying to create a new doctrine, just something I've been entrigued by. My intention here is not to start a fire storm over tithing. I just think a pattern can be found pointing to greater revelations that would futher a brother's walk.
 

Rach1370

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Spot on Rach! Rev. 5:9 says by the blood we (some) were redeemed to God "out of" every tribe and tongue and nation, not everyone, not even most, sad to say. Mat.13:44 teaches a parable about a treasure (His people) in a field (the world) and how He sacrificed all for the treasured ones in the field. He will have a remnant, He always has. Perhaps 10%, which would shine a very bright light on the utimate purpose of the tithe. No portion of scripture says this directly, not trying to create a new doctrine, just something I've been entrigued by. My intention here is not to start a fire storm over tithing. I just think a pattern can be found pointing to greater revelations that would futher a brother's walk.

:)
The 'remnant' thing is interesting to me, as well. We kinda assume that 'all Israel' was elect...and maybe to a point they were...I haven't studied enough to make a sure comment. But what is sure is that God's specific purpose was carried out through just a remnant all the way through Israel's history...the chosen family within the nation. But just being Abraham's blood didn't guarantee anything...as Ishmael and Esau showed...God chose then, and will choose now, who He calls and who He hardens. The whole world is offered grace, but there will only be a remnant within....
 

Prentis

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I would say that the comparison would be more accurate if we said that the whole church is offered grace, but only a remnant truly goes by it. Israel was a peculiar nation in the world, and in that nation, a remnant was faithful. The church is a peculiar people in the world, and in this people, a remnant is faithful, and thus saved in the end. :)

Just my two pennies...
 

Foreigner

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Buzz, what you say in no way at all refutes Rach's point.

[13] “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. [14] For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. (Matthew 7:13-14 ESV)

What about this ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ scripture is NOT talking about salvation?
 

BibleScribe

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[13] “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. [14] For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. (Matthew 7:13-14 ESV)



That verse does not say only a few will be saved.....it only says few finds it. ...
Buzz, what you say in no way at all refutes Rach's point.

[13] “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. [14] For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. (Matthew 7:13-14 ESV)

What about this ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ scripture is NOT talking about salvation?


To All,

Apparently some would revise Scripture to suggest that "destruction" is actually ~heaven~. And in ~heaven~ we should find the likes of all kinds of evil:


.... if you refuse to forgive people like Hitler, Saddam and Mussolini for example, then there will only be one place for you......to be cause into Hell.


And so it seems that GOD's righteous judgment is equally reserved for ~hell~, because Matt. 7:13-14 condemns evil.


So once again, if evil is in ~heaven~, and the righteous (including GOD) are in ~hell~, then please sign me up for the latter. :)


BibleScribe



PS Beware of false teachers. For with them comes swift destruction. 2 Peter 2:1
 

Buzzfruit

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Buzz, what you say in no way at all refutes Rach's point.

[13] “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. [14] For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. (Matthew 7:13-14 ESV)

What about this ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ scripture is NOT talking about salvation?

Not my words but the scripture does. There are scriptures both in the Old and the New Testament that shows that those who have died and never repented will live again, and God will open their minds to His truth. I am not saying that every single human being will accept salvation but what I have studied in the Bible the vast majority will repent.
 

Buzzfruit

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So, you're a Universalist then?

Nope.


You believe the Bible teaches that eventually God will bring all to Him in repentance?

No, I never said that. I said what Jesus said. And He said that when He is lifted up He will bring all men (people) to Himself. And what Jesus meant by that is that all people's sins have been forgiven.....He took the sins of all people onto Himself and in that regard all people are saved. But I am not saying that people don't need to repent....because they still do....all would still need to accept what Jesus did and live in the reality of the fact that they are a New Creation.


What about all who have already died, and died in rebellion? Do they get a second chance after death?

I'm sorry, it just doesn't add up with what scripture tells us. Do I believe that people are unable to seek God and repentance alone? Yep. Do I believe that God reaches for us, opens our ears to hear and hearts to believe? Yep. Do I believe He does that for everyone? Nope.

The vast majority of people that are dead died in rebellion. But just because that is the case does not mean that they are doomed. God is responsible for the unlocking of the human mind, and unless or until He does people will live in rebellion against God. God knows when it is the right time to open each individual's mind.
 

Rach1370

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Nope.




No, I never said that. I said what Jesus said. And He said that when He is lifted up He will bring all men (people) to Himself. And what Jesus meant by that is that all people's sins have been forgiven.....He took the sins of all people onto Himself and in that regard all people are saved. But I am not saying that people don't need to repent....because they still do....all would still need to accept what Jesus did and live in the reality of the fact that they are a New Creation.




The vast majority of people that are dead died in rebellion. But just because that is the case does not mean that they are doomed. God is responsible for the unlocking of the human mind, and unless or until He does people will live in rebellion against God. God knows when it is the right time to open each individual's mind.

Hmmm, I see that you very nicely managed to miss my point, and completely avoid the scriptures I posted.