Freewill and Choice have NOTHING to dowith Salvation

[Benoni]

The religious word freewill; the reason I call it religious word because the word freewill is not in the scripture when it comes to man's salvation. Oh sure you can find the word Freewill in the OT when it comes to the Hebrew Freewill offering; BUT that feast has nothing to do with basic salvation. It is not a matter of freewill; (we are saved by grace not freewill) free will is a non scriptural word. God call/calls/draws/drags people which is totally contrary to the religious man made doctrine from Rome. God draws us or if you dig a little harder He drags us; there is NO FREE WILL when you are being drawn or dragged in fact it totally to the contrary.Romans 3:11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. John 6:44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws (drag Greek) him, and I will raise him up at the last day1670 helkuo (hel-koo'-o); drag Romans 9:12 It was said to her that the elder [son] should serve the younger [son]) 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated (held in [1] relative disregard in comparison with My feeling for Jacob).) 14 What shall we conclude then? Is there injustice upon God's part? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion (pity) on whom I will have compassion.) 16 So then [God's gift] is not a question of human will and human effort, but of God's mercy. [It depends not on one's own willingness nor on his strenuous exertion as in running a race, but on God's having mercy on him.] 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, I have raised you up for this very purpose of displaying My power in [dealing with] you, so that My name may be proclaimed the whole world over. 18 So then He has mercy on whomever He wills (chooses) and He hardens (makes stubborn and unyielding the heart of) whomever He wills. 19 You will say to me, Why then does He still find fault and blame us [for sinning]? For who can resist and withstand His will? 20 But who are you, a mere man, to criticize and contradict and Why have you made me thus? 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same mass (lump) one vessel for beauty and distinction and honorable use, and another for menial or ignoble and dishonorable use?

 

[gumby]

God gives people choices, if god didnt give people choices than why would he send his son jesus? the following scriptures should help: Deuteronomy 30:19, Joshua 24:18, 1st Kings 18:21 and John 3:16 :)

 

[Benoni]

No God does not give us choice when it comes to salvation. Three of the verses you quoted are OT and have nothing to do with salvation for with out the blood of Jesus there is no salvation. John 3;16 sorry to tell you has nothing to do with choice if you lok at the original language; here is what I mean: (KJV) John 3 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:15 That whosoever believeth in him should (not perish,) should be omitted), but have eternal life.16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that (whosoever, should be "all") (believeth, should be that "all believing") in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.Now we will look at a passage in the New Testament; viz., that precious declaration in John 3:16, "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son," etc. We will take into consideration verses 14-17 inclusive; first I will clear up several points of obscurity and error and then give the rendering as it should be.In verse 15 the words "not perish but" should be omitted; according to the best authorities they have been interpolated, probably from the following verse; they are left out from the New Version.Strong's Whosoever 3956 pas (pas);including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole: KJV-- all (manner of, means), alway (-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), X thoroughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever. The word "whosoever" in the l5th and l6th verses should be rendered "all"; in the original it is the word usually rendered all throughout the New Testament; it occurs hundreds of times, and it is rendered "all" in over nine hundred instances, and whosoever in only about forty; the rendering all then is plainly the usual one. The word rendered "believeth," in the original is a participle, "believing"; the clause should read, "that all, believing in him should not," etc. The words, "believing in him," are explanatory, telling us how "all" are to be saved, viz, by believing in him. In the common version it will be noticed that the participle is, without authority, rendered by the verb "believeth," and the words, "whosoever believeth in him" are thereby made to have a conditional force, as though it read, if they believe in him, implying that some will not believe in him, and hence will perish, and be lost eternally. But this is not a correct rendering of the original, as I have shown above; the clause is not conditional, but is thrown in, as a participial form, as explanatory of the manner of the world's salvation, by believing in him; this view is fully confirmed by the l9th verse; "for God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through him might be saved."Might be saved: Stong's 4982 sozo (sode'-zo); from a primary sos (contraction for obsolete saoz, "safe"); to save, i.e. deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): KJV-- heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole. The word “might” was added by the translator Now I will give the whole passage as it ought to be. "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the son of man be lifted up, that all, believing in him. might have æonial life. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that all, believing in him, might not perish, but have æonial life. For God sent not his Son into the worldto condemn the world but that the world through him be saved." Thus truthfully translated this passage is one of the grandest and most sweeping declarations of the triumph of God's grace in the salvation of the world, contained in the Bible. It is positive and direct, and mighty enough, could they only appreciate it, to utterly silence all those narrow, shortsighted souls who think that God will only gain a partial victory over the devil, that he will not save the world. It is very plain why the translators of the common version handled this passage as they did. Their creed would not allow them to accept it just as it reads; it required only a slight change to make it conform to their own idea. They insert the unusual rendering "whosoever," change believing to "believeth," and then, punctuating it accordingly, the passage is "tinkered" so as to harmonize with the creed. Thank God for deliverance from man made creeds! "Let God be true, though every man be false" (Rom. 3:4).Young’s Literal John 3:14 `And as Moses did lift up the serpent in the wilderness, so it behoveth the Son of Man to be lifted up, 15 that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during, 16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. 17 For God did not send His Son to the world that he may judge the world, but that the world may be saved through him;

 

[gumby]

Ok im willing to go by your anology here, lets just say that one goes about his whole life not making any decision on such matters. In other words if i was to just say well god doesnt give me any choice or decision so i will do as i please. By that theory i could build churches and claim myself as a god and claim it was gods will. By that theory an alcoholic with a true addiction would never heal if he didnt take action and make concious decisions. Would god like it if his people were lazy and just floated through life letting god handle all things like jobs, money, food etc. God wants people to guird up there loins and take action and figure out at least something for themselves. A better question i have though is what if the antichrist was here and you didnt make any decisions and take any action what would happen? god wants decision makers and warriors that are willing to take a stand for god.

 

[Benoni]

I am not talking allegory here; allegories are awesome; (the Bible is full of examples/allegories; Sure man can choose a Coke over a Pepsi, or and apple or an pear. But you did not choose you're parents, you're color of skin, where you were born and you're salvation.NO; I am speaking of God’s Word not my opinion. Like I said freewill is not scriptural "when it comes to salvation"; in fact it is contrary, the exact opposite of what God’s Word is declaring. Notice it says "no man". John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Greek drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day. The words translated "draw" and "drew" in the Greek New Testament are HELKUO and HELKO. Each of these words has the basic meaning of "compel ... .. draw," "pull," and "tug." In most instances the force which does the drawing or compelling is sufficient to cause the object of the drawing to respond fully. For example, in Jn. 18:10, it is said that "Peter having a sword DREW it..." The impetuous disciple most assuredly did not draw the weapon out of its sheath in a gingerly or wooing fashion. Nor did the sword seek to draw itself out by its own will and good pleasure! Peter didn't merely "invite" the sword to come out, in spite of any resistance the blade may have had as it dragged the leather scabbard, the muscular arm of Peter yanked it forcefully out in obedience to his will. There is no choice for the person when God draws you, drags you or forces you to come; it is God's choice not little man.

 

[gumby]

I will say it for the last time god hates lazy innactive people that will not pull themselves up by the bootstrapes and make clear decisions in life. Proverbs 6:6-11, Proverbs 10:4, Proverbs 10:5, Proverbs 10:26, Proverbs 12:24, Provervs 12:27, Proverbs 13:4, Proverbs 15:19 and Proverbs 18:19.

 

[Benoni]

This has nothing to do with lazy innactive people; this has to do with man not having the spiritual ability to call upon God until God draws us/quicken us; because carnal man is dead; spiritually dead in trustpasses and sin. The carnal person cannot choose God because of the curse; when Adam died we all died not phyically in Adam's case until he was 930 years old. (Genesis 5:5) but spiritually at moment. So we are all dead spiritually. 1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

 

[logabe]

So what you are saying is...God will eventually saveEVERYBODY, because Jesus said He came to SAVE theworld not to condemn. If we don't have anything to dowith it, surely God is responsible if He leaves us in HELLfor eternity or completely annilates us for not doing some-thing we couldn't possibly achieve. Now, I do believe we have a choice after salvation is acquired. God deals with us differently because our eyesare open to spiritual things and we become accountablefor the things we do (good or bad), for the purpose ofattaining a better resurrection ( Hebrews 11:35). Even in our choice...God is behind the scenes convictingus if we choose the wrong answer, for the purpose of correcting our decisions, when we have to make a similarchoice in the future. It's called "changed into the Image ofGod", so we can learn the ways of God, so we can have apersonal relationship with Him. Logabe

 

[Benoni]

Ultimate salvation for all is banned by most Forums and is a totally differnt subject.Yes we have all kinds of choice once God draws us/quickens us because we are becoming alive spiritually again; notice I said the word becoming. Many are kocked in certain mind set and refuse to see annd hear beyond those mindsets. Philippians 3:13-15 (King James Version)13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.[quote name='logabe;71761]So what you are saying is...God will eventually saveEVERYBODY' date=' because Jesus said He came to SAVE theworld not to condemn. If we don't have anything to dowith it, surely God is responsible if He leaves us in HELLfor eternity or completely annilates us for not doing some-thing we couldn't possibly achieve. Now, I do believe we have a choice after salvation is acquired. God deals with us differently because our eyesare open to spiritual things and we become accountablefor the things we do (good or bad), for the purpose ofattaining a better resurrection ( Hebrews 11:35). Even in our choice...God is behind the scenes convictingus if we choose the wrong answer, for the purpose of correcting our decisions, when we have to make a similarchoice in the future. It's called "changed into the Image ofGod", so we can learn the ways of God, so we can have apersonal relationship with Him. Logabe[/QUOTE']

 

[logabe]

I believe "Untimate Salvation" has everything to dowith this subject at hand. Romans 9:18-19, 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Now, correct if I am wrong...you said God dragsyou (1670 helkuo (hel-koo'-o); drag) and I agreewith you, but, if God has that power, surely He could DRAG everyone. If you have nothing to do your salvation, which I believe you don't, then why does God yet find fault? If God want's tosave you...can you resist His Will? I think I know your answer. We sin because of our father Adam. Romans 8:19-22, 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. Paul makes it clear that the creation had no choice in being subjected to "futility" and to "slavery to corruption." It was done by the sovereign will of God alone. Futility, vanity, or emptiness describe a path that appears to go nowhere and has no purpose. When Adam sinned, his sin was imputed to all mankind. We all became liable for Adam's sin, and thus we are all mortal, paying for a sin which we did not commit. And not only mankind, but ALL OF CREATION was subjected to this "corruption." It is contrary to the divine law for anyone to impute a father's sin upon the children. Deuteronomy 24:16 says: 16 "Fathers shall not be put to death for {their} sons, nor shall sons be put to death for {their} fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin. Children were not to be punished for the sins of their father. And yet this is precisely what God did with us. The fact that all of Adam's children are born mortal proves that we are paying for a sin committed by our father (Romans 5:12). This raises the most basic question about the justice of God. Death was imposed upon us outside our will, and this is the root cause of all personal sins committed after Adam's original sin. We are being held liable for a sin of our father, Adam. We cannot hide this issue and hope it goes unnoticed by God's critics. Nor can we theologize it away after God clearly takes the credit for holding us liable. Paul says that God certainly will not leave creation hanging. The disharmony and injustice is only temporary. In fact, Paul says that the injustice that caused the tension will be MORE THAN COMPENSATED when the final chord of history is struck. And so Paul reminds us in Romans 8:18, 18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. And again, he says in 2 Corinthians 4:17, 17 For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison, Paul is reminding us that the injustices of life are not only temporary, but will be more than righted at the last day when He restores all things. Logabe

 

[Benoni]

Boy are you being bad; but so far you are one of the few I totally agee with.BIG AMEN......

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [/B][have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Now, correct if I am wrong...you said God dragsyou (1670 helkuo (hel-koo'-o); drag) and I agreewith you, but, if God has that power, surely He could DRAG everyone. If you have nothing to do your salvation, which I believe you don't, then why does God yet find fault? If God want's tosave you...can you resist His Will? I think I know your answer. We sin because of our father Adam. Romans 8:19-22, 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. Paul makes it clear that the creation had no choice in being subjected to "futility" and to "slavery to corruption." It was done by the sovereign will of God alone. Futility, vanity, or emptiness describe a path that appears to go nowhere and has no purpose. When Adam sinned, his sin was imputed to all mankind. We all became liable for Adam's sin, and thus we are all mortal, paying for a sin which we did not commit. And not only mankind, but ALL OF CREATION was subjected to this "corruption." It is contrary to the divine law for anyone to impute a father's sin upon the children. Deuteronomy 24:16 says: 16 "Fathers shall not be put to death for {their} sons, nor shall sons be put to death for {their} fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin. Children were not to be punished for the sins of their father. And yet this is precisely what God did with us. The fact that all of Adam's children are born mortal proves that we are paying for a sin committed by our father (Romans 5:12). This raises the most basic question about the justice of God. Death was imposed upon us outside our will, and this is the root cause of all personal sins committed after Adam's original sin. We are being held liable for a sin of our father, Adam. We cannot hide this issue and hope it goes unnoticed by God's critics. Nor can we theologize it away after God clearly takes the credit for holding us liable. Paul says that God certainly will not leave creation hanging. The disharmony and injustice is only temporary. In fact, Paul says that the injustice that caused the tension will be MORE THAN COMPENSATED when the final chord of history is struck. And so Paul reminds us in Romans 8:18, 18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. And again, he says in 2 Corinthians 4:17, 17 For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison, Paul is reminding us that the injustices of life are not only temporary, but will be more than righted at the last day when He restores all things. Logabe

 

[epistemaniac]

the key in John is "believe", for it is those who believe on Jesus who will be saved... not that the whole world will be saved...so as far as the word 'world" goes, this is not to be taken in an absolute sense any more than it is here:Joh 12:19 ESV So the Pharisees said to one another, "You see that you are gaining nothing. Look, the world has gone after him."the whole world, literally, without exception, of course had not "gone after" Jesus since the very people saying this had not themselves "gone after" Jesus... its just an expression and the context must determine what terms like this must mean...so we should not take the word 'world" to mean everyone without exception in the entire world anymore than that every time we see the word "everywhere" that we should take this to mean, absolutely everywhere in the entire world... for instance, considerMar 16:20 ESV And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the message by accompanying signs."Mat 2:1-3 ESV Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the east came to Jerusalem, (2) saying, "Where is he who has been born king of the Jews? For we saw his star when it rose[2] and have come to worship him." (3) When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him;obviously literally "all" Jerusalem was not troubled, as many Jews were anxiously hoping for and expecting the Messiah...and equally obviously at this point the Gospel had not been preached at the Yucatan Peninsula, or in Tibet, or to the Eskimos... its not that the bible is mistaken, for this would be to make the text say something it was not trying to say .... "everywhere" and 'world" or "all" are figures of speech that sometimes can mean literally everywhere or literally the entire world or literally "all", but do not necessarily mean that this is what is meant each and every time the words are used.... typically "world" means every nation and ethnic group without exception... though it has many other meanings as well..."G2889κόσμοςkósmos; gen. kósmou, masc. noun probably from koméō (n.f.), to take care of. World, with its primary meaning being order, regular disposition and arrangement.(I) A decoration, ornament (1Pe_3:3; Sept.: Exo_33:4-6; Jer_4:30).(II) Order of the universe, the world.(A) The universe, heavens and earth (Mat_13:35; Mat_24:21; Luk_11:50; Joh_17:5, Joh_17:24; Act_17:24; Rom_1:20; Heb_4:3). Metonym for the inhabitants of the universe (1Co_4:9). Figuratively and symbolically, a world of something, as an aggregate such as in Jam_3:6, "a world of iniquity" (cf. Sept.: Pro_17:6).(B) The earth, this lower world as the abode of man. (1) The then-known world and particularly the people who lived in it (Mar_16:15; Joh_16:21, Joh_16:28; Joh_21:25; 1Ti_3:16; 1Pe_5:9; 2Pe_3:6). To come or be sent into the world means to be born, as in Joh_1:9. To go forth into the world means to appear before men as in Joh_3:17, Joh_3:19; Joh_6:14; 1Ti_1:15; Heb_10:5; 1Jo_4:1, 1Jo_4:9; 2Jo_1:7. Hyperbolically (Mat_4:8, "all the kingdoms of the world"; see Rom_1:8). (2) Metonymically, the world meaning the inhabitants of the earth, men, mankind (Mat_5:14; Mat_13:38; Joh_1:29; Joh_3:16; Rom_3:6, Rom_3:19; 1Co_4:13; 2Co_5:19; Heb_11:7; 2Pe_2:5; 1Jo_2:2). Hyperbolically, the world for the multitude, everybody (Joh_7:4 "show thyself to the world" means manifest thyself, do not remain in secret; Joh_12:19); metaphorically, that is openly (Joh_14:22; Joh_18:20; 2Co_1:12). It also stands for the heathen world, the same as tá éthnē (G1484), "the nations" (a.t. [Rom_11:12, Rom_11:15 {cf. Luk_12:30}]).(C) The present world, the present order of things, as opposed to the kingdom of Christ; and hence, always with the idea of transience, worthlessness, and evil both physical and moral, the seat of cares, temptations, irregular desires. It is thus nearly equivalent to ho aiṓn hoútos (aiṓn [G165], age; hoútos [G3778], this), this age. (1) Generally with hoútos (G3778), this (Joh_12:25, "in this world," during this life; Joh_18:36, "of this world," meaning this earth; 1Co_5:10; Eph_2:2; 1Jo_4:17). Specifically the wealth and enjoyments of this world, this life's goods (Mat_16:26; Mar_8:36; Luk_9:25; 1Co_3:22; 1Co_7:31, 1Co_7:33-34; Gal_6:14; Jam_4:4; 1Jo_2:17). (2) Metonymically for the men of this world as opposed to those who seek the kingdom of God, e.g., with hoútos, this (1Co_1:20; 1Co_3:19); as subject to Satan, the ruler of this world (Joh_12:31; Joh_14:30; Joh_16:11); without hoútos (Joh_7:7; Joh_14:17; Joh_16:8; Joh_17:6, Joh_17:9; 1Co_1:21; 2Co_7:10; Phi_2:15; Jam_1:27).(III) Idiomatic expressions with kósmosA) A rhetorical expression for the great majority of people in a particular place (Joh_12:19).(B) Almost equivalent to the modern phrase "the public" (Joh_7:4 [cf. Joh_18:20]).(C) Means of sustenance for the body is called bíos (G979), i.e., means of livelihood. Bíon toú kósmou (1Jo_3:17), the material things provided in the world.(D) "The tongue . . . a world of iniquity" (Jam_3:6), the sum total.(E) The world before the flood (Heb_11:7; 2Pe_2:5; 2Pe_3:6). The population of the world then and its accumulations of wealth and the products of its labor are no doubt chiefly in view; yet the comparison in 2Pe_3:6-7 with "the heavens and the earth, which are now," suggests a sweeping away at that time of the whole order of nature.(IV) Kósmos used with ethical meaningA) As material and transitory, the world presents a contrast with that which is spiritual and eternal. So Paul regards it in Gal_4:3; Gal_6:14; Col_2:8, Col_2:20. His general teaching is that the Law and its ordinances belong to an external sphere, the things that are seen (2Co_4:18) which lose their value through Christ's death, in comparison with the things spiritual. So it should be with all Christians. Here he is not considering the world to be evil as indeed the Law is not evil, but only of temporary value (see 1Co_7:31, 1Co_7:34 [cf. Luk_12:30]).(B) Devotion to the things of the world produces a certain attitude of mind which under the sense of laws is manifested in "the sorrow of the world" which is not "godly sorrow" (2Co_7:10). The things of this world are thus spoken of as altogether incomplete (1Co_1:27-28; 1Co_4:13; Jam_2:5). The world has its own wisdom which does not have concern for God (Joh_1:10; 1Co_1:20-21; 1Co_3:19) and which cannot receive the Spirit of truth (Joh_14:17). There is a spirit of this world (1Co_2:12). Those who have this spirit are described as being "of the world" or "of this world" (Joh_8:23; 1Jo_4:4-5). In contrast, Christ's disciples are described as being "not of the world" (Joh_15:19; Joh_17:14 [cf. 1Co_5:10]). The state of the world arising from the influence of this worldly spirit is one of dire moral corruption (Eph_2:2; Jam_1:27; Jam_4:4; 2Pe_1:4; 2Pe_2:20; 1Jo_2:15-17).(C) The word "world" denotes the mass of people who are hostile or at least indifferent to the truth and the followers of Christ (Joh_7:7; Joh_16:20, Joh_16:33; 1Jo_3:1, 1Jo_3:13; 1Jo_4:4-5).(D) The world is dominated by the evil one (Joh_12:31; 1Jo_4:4-5).(E) The world is the object of judgment and saving mercy (Joh_1:29; Joh_3:16-19; Joh_4:42; Joh_6:33, Joh_6:51; Joh_8:12, Joh_8:26; Joh_9:5; Joh_12:46-47; Rom_3:19; Rom_11:12, Rom_11:15; 1Co_6:2; 2Co_5:19). Men are the objects of judgment individually but they will also be objects of a collective judgment or a collective restoration (cf. Rom_8:19 f.).(F) The Holy Spirit has a special office in regard to the world, distinct from that which He exercises toward believers (Joh_16:8-11).(G) Through faith, the Christian can overcome the world, i.e., no doubt, the worldly spirit in himself and the opposition of worldly men and the world's ruler (1Jo_4:4; 1Jo_5:4-5).(V) Kósmos, at times, bears a distinction to aiṓn (G165), age, a period of time, but a much longer one than we usually think of, probably indeed the whole period during which the present order of nature has continued and shall continue. Aiṓn is used in many places with much the same connotation as "world." It is often rendered by this word in our translations though aiṓn should often be distinguished from kósmos, even where the two seem to express the same idea as in 1Co_1:20 and Eph_2:2-3. This aiṓn is contrasted to that which is to come (Mat_12:32; Mar_10:30; Luk_18:30; Heb_6:5). We read of its cares (Mat_13:22; Mar_4:19); its sons (Luk_16:8; Luk_20:34-35); its rulers, i.e., the kings and great ones of the earth (1Co_2:6, 1Co_2:8); its wisdom (1Co_1:20; 1Co_2:6; 1Co_3:18-19); its fashion, to which the Christian must not be conformed (Rom_12:2). It is evil (Gal_1:4) and under the dominion of the evil one (2Co_4:4). This use of aiṓn with an ethical meaning is not difficult to understand, easier indeed than the corresponding and more common one of kósmos. It is otherwise with the expression in Heb_1:2, "He made the worlds [aiṓnas, ages]." Here, hoi aiṓnes, the ages, seems to mean the sum of the periods of time including all that is manifested in and through them.Deriv.: kosméō (G2885), to order, put in order, decorate, adorn; kosmikós (G2886), worldly, earthly; kósmios (G2887), well- ordered, well-mannered, decorous; kosmokrátor (G2888), a world ruler.Syn.: aiṓn (G165), age; oikouménē (G3625), the inhabited earth, civilization; gḗ (G1093), earth as arable land, but also the earth as a whole, the world in contrast to the heavens."The point being to say that in John 3:15ff that the word "world" means that everyone in the entire world without exception will be saved is to read into the verse one's own presuppositions and preexisting theology, it can't be gained from the verse itself. This is eisiogesis versus what we ought to be engaging in, eg exegesis....I do agree that John 3:16 is wrongly used to try and prove that Christ died equally or in the same way for everyone in the world without exception. But that is probably another conversation altogether :)in any case, here is the passage as it ought to be translated (I am leaving the translation up to those who are qualified to do so), taking into careful consideration verse 18 which clearly spells out the consequences for not believing, and if it is not that case that unbelief is possible, it seems a little odd to warn people about something that can't ever happen in the first place:John 3:14-18 NIV Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, (15) that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. (16) "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (17) For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. (18) Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.John 3:14-18 ESV And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, (15) that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.[6] (16) "For God so loved the world,[7] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. (17) For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. (18) Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."orJohn 3:14-18 NASB "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; (15) so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. (16) "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. (17) "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. (18) "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."blessings,ken

whosoever[/COLOR] believeth in him should (not perish,) should be omitted), but have eternal life.16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that (whosoever, should be "all") (believeth, should be that "all believing") in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.Now we will look at a passage in the New Testament; viz., that precious declaration in John 3:16, "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son," etc. We will take into consideration verses 14-17 inclusive; first I will clear up several points of obscurity and error and then give the rendering as it should be.In verse 15 the words "not perish but" should be omitted; according to the best authorities they have been interpolated, probably from the following verse; they are left out from the New Version.Strong's Whosoever 3956 pas (pas);including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole: KJV-- all (manner of, means), alway (-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), X thoroughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever. The word "whosoever" in the l5th and l6th verses should be rendered "all"; in the original it is the word usually rendered all throughout the New Testament; it occurs hundreds of times, and it is rendered "all" in over nine hundred instances, and whosoever in only about forty; the rendering all then is plainly the usual one. The word rendered "believeth," in the original is a participle, "believing"; the clause should read, "that all, believing in him should not," etc. The words, "believing in him," are explanatory, telling us how "all" are to be saved, viz, by believing in him. In the common version it will be noticed that the participle is, without authority, rendered by the verb "believeth," and the words, "whosoever believeth in him" are thereby made to have a conditional force, as though it read, if they believe in him, implying that some will not believe in him, and hence will perish, and be lost eternally. But this is not a correct rendering of the original, as I have shown above; the clause is not conditional, but is thrown in, as a participial form, as explanatory of the manner of the world's salvation, by believing in him; this view is fully confirmed by the l9th verse; "for God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through him might be saved."Might be saved: Stong's 4982 sozo (sode'-zo); from a primary sos (contraction for obsolete saoz, "safe"); to save, i.e. deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): KJV-- heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole. The word “might” was added by the translator Now I will give the whole passage as it ought to be. "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the son of man be lifted up, that all, believing in him. might have æonial life. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that all, believing in him, might not perish, but have æonial life. For God sent not his Son into the worldto condemn the world but that the world through him be saved." Thus truthfully translated this passage is one of the grandest and most sweeping declarations of the triumph of God's grace in the salvation of the world, contained in the Bible. It is positive and direct, and mighty enough, could they only appreciate it, to utterly silence all those narrow, shortsighted souls who think that God will only gain a partial victory over the devil, that he will not save the world. It is very plain why the translators of the common version handled this passage as they did. Their creed would not allow them to accept it just as it reads; it required only a slight change to make it conform to their own idea. They insert the unusual rendering "whosoever," change believing to "believeth," and then, punctuating it accordingly, the passage is "tinkered" so as to harmonize with the creed. Thank God for deliverance from man made creeds! "Let God be true, though every man be false" (Rom. 3:4).Young’s Literal John 3:14 `And as Moses did lift up the serpent in the wilderness, so it behoveth the Son of Man to be lifted up, 15 that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during, 16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. 17 For God did not send His Son to the world that he may judge the world, but that the world may be saved through him;

 

[Benoni]

No one can "believe" until God draws them or drags them. Notice the words "no one"...The word draw us as stated in John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Gk(drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last daySo man does not have a choice in being dragged.

 

[epistemaniac]

I totally agree!! And since God does not "drag/draw" everyone, though He does drag/draw men from every tribe, tongue and nation, not everyone believes... thus not everyone is not saved...that is probably the crux of our disagreement, is it not?blessings,ken

 

[logabe]

Do you believe Romans 5:19... 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. The key word is MANY. We know the manythat Paul was talking about was everybody.Why? We know we all sin because we are allmortal...so Paul was talking about everybodythat has ever lived. Do you know anybody that has defeated death other than Jesus?. Now, what is hard for us to believe as Christiansis, surely that same many that Paul was talkingabout doesn't mean everybody...right...isn't thatwhat you believe. Everybody can't be made righteous...although all were made sinners withoutever being ask. 1st Cor. 15:22, 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. Hummm...you think Paul knows what he istalking about? Logabe

 

[logabe]

I need someone to comment on that lastpost. What do you think? Logabe

 

[Brother Mike]

I agree logabe!!!. epistemaniac:

And since God does not "drag/draw" everyone,

everyone, though He does drag/draw men from every tribe, tongue and nation, not everyone believes... thus not everyone is not saved

Benoni

No one can "believe" until God draws them or drags them. Notice the words "no one"...

Benoni

So man does not have a choice in being dragged.

Seems like a big Paradox Brothers. In the beginning was the Word the word was with God and the Word was God. The Word preached is God calling them. They can refuse. They can't believe if they don't hear. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God, and we are saved by grace THROUGH faith in what we choose to believe. For some did not choose to believe. Rom 10:13-Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. (Not just the chosen but those that believe)Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth (Purposeful action taken) me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. Jesus Is Lord

 

[logabe]

Bro. Mike, correct me if I am wrong, but, areyou saying the First Adam has more POWER thanthe Last Adam? Let's look @ Rom. 5:19 a littlecloser: 19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. Adam brought the whole creation down by thatone ACT. Think about that for a minute becausethat is a very powerful statement. Now, think about the very, very, small amount ofChristians that are saved today compared to thepopulation. My question is...who has more power,Adam or Jesus? Adam brought everybody down but Jesus can onlybring a few compared to supposively, an estimate,of about 55,000,000,000 people that have been born since Adam sinned. Will a loving God allow most of the many that don't know their right hand from their left be tormented for eternity. Watch what God says about it in Jonah 4:10-11, 10 Then the LORD said, "You had compassion on the plant for which you did not work and {which} you did not cause to grow, which came up overnight and perished overnight.11 "Should I not have compassion on Nineveh, the great city in which there are more than 120,000 persons who do not know {the difference} between their right and left hand, as well as many animals?" Jonah's name actually means DOVE and he representsthe people of Israel ( church). He didn't want to preachto Niveneh because they were his enemy. So in a sense,he also had a Pharisee spirit Mathew 12:38-39, 38 Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered, saying, "Teacher, we want to see a sign from You." 39 But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. The purpose of His second coming is to fulfill the second half of the sign of Jonah. The first sign was to die and be laid in the heart of the earth for 3 days. The second sign is to preach the Word to Nineveh, representing the nations of the world, and to convert them. It is to put all things under His feet--that is, under His rulership and headship. We are about to enter into that second sign, and this outpouring of the Spirit will continue until Revelation 5:11-14 is fulfilled, 11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice: "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain To receive power and riches and wisdom, And strength and honor and glory and blessing!" 13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: "Blessing and honor and glory and power [Be] to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!" 14 Then the four living creatures said, "Amen!" And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever. That sounds like everybody to me...EVERY CREATUREwas praising and worshipping HIM that sits upon theTHRONE. PRAISE THE LORD!!! Logabe

 

[Christina]

many were made sinners' date=' so by the [/B']obedience of one shall many be made righteous. The key word is MANY. We know the manythat Paul was talking about was everybody.Why? We know we all sin because we are allmortal...so Paul was talking about everybodythat has ever lived. Do you know anybody that has defeated death other than Jesus?. Now, what is hard for us to believe as Christiansis, surely that same many that Paul was talkingabout doesn't mean everybody...right...isn't thatwhat you believe. Everybody can't be made righteous...although all were made sinners withoutever being ask. 1st Cor. 15:22, 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. Hummm...you think Paul knows what he istalking about? Logabe

The Word Many in Greek is: polys1) many, much, large It has one meaning above ..... Now everyone born flesh except one was a sinner ......... So Paul means everyone except one who was born flesh and was perfect (Christ) therefore many is used in the verse to denote that there was one exception .... The same word is used again in the verse to denot a large number ,or many ...Not all as you have said .... Niether use of the Word means everyone if there is one exception .... And I agree with Mikes statement below Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. (Not just the chosen but those that believe)Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth (Purposeful action taken) me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. Not just the chosen but those who believe and stay faithful to the End will become the overcomers and reign and rule with Christ ... If it were not so we would all just be robots here for no other reason than to play out some Prescripted game ......

 

[savedbygrace57]

log says:

The key word is MANY. We know the manythat Paul was talking about was everybody.

No its not everybody, but everyone of the elect..the seed of the serpent did not sin in adam, but in their father the devil..