There are many people who believe God has created every person with freewill. Then there are also people who do not. I would say that the freewill bunch outweighs the non-freewill bunch. But I can see a problem with both sides of the equation. If God has given each human being freewill then how can this God take any action without causing a reaction. (Anything that God does is going to have it's effects on whomever or whatever) Although if God does not take action in the affairs of human beings, then this God is ultimately powerless and will not do anything to change what choices we make (Regardless how much we pray and worship, and believe)
Freewill, or Not
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ScottA
Well-Known Member
Freewill was before the foundation of the world (just like the Lamb that was slain). This is the revelation of that freewill, i.e., what is written of it.
I.O.U I do think God has always been active in the affairs of mankind more so than man would like to admit or give him credit for. The question of free will and how much the free will of humanity can impose itself upon every aspect of life including the heavenly has its limitations. I do think upon Icarus who upon his much daring did fly much to close to the Sun and did plummet from the heavens as a fiery inferno back to the reality of the Earth.
@Prim Interesting that to Christians Philippians 2 says: "It is God that worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure....."
BeyondET
Well-Known Member
That's a good example of will's..
in verse 21 there was some who chased their own. It seems likely that was their own free will.
21 For they all seek their own, not the things of Jesus Christ.
@BeyondET True spiritual freedom is found in the way of the Perfect Servant of Philippians 2, Who was obedience unto death, even the death of the Cross.
BeyondET
Well-Known Member
This is the problem with trying to teach doctrine of God by philosophy, rather than by Scripture only.
The children of Israel brought a willing offering unto the LORD, every man and woman, whose heart made them willing to bring for all manner of work, which the LORD had commanded to be made by the hand of Moses.
The children of Israel brought a willing offering unto the LORD, every man and woman, whose heart made them willing to bring for all manner of work, which the LORD had commanded to be made by the hand of Moses.
And thou shalt keep the feast of weeks unto the LORD thy God with a tribute of a freewill offering of thine hand, which thou shalt give unto the LORD thy God, according as the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:
Free will is freely from one's own heart, not by commandment nor compulsion nor lust.
Man is given free will by God creating us in His image, so that man can please God by freewill offerings and service to Jesus Christ and our neighbors.
Simple.
Lapidem
Member
Ridiculous
None of us have free will. All we have are very limited choices in a totally rigged environment. try and think critically for goodness sake!
Do we have the free will to not believe your god and to do as we please?
I'm sure you would say yes but that we will go to hell if we choose that.
So what was that nonsense you were mentioning about "not by commandment nor compulsion" ?
The Christian dogma is as untennable as it is contradictory and hypocritical. You have no free will if there is a gun to your head.
Free will means freedom to do as you please without persecution, without punishment for making that choice.
Your god has free will. He can do as he pleases with no-one to hold him accountable, no repercussions.
He has killed men, women, children, babies and unborn babies with reckless abandon according to the OT. That's free will.
He'd be tried were he a man and jailed or executed.
By this simple reasoning we should know that neither your god exists nor does true free will.
Space_Karen
Well-Known Member
Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle.
Does observing the state of something affect its state.
But even that could be irrelevant as God (infinite) could exist outside of the physical universe (finite) and its limitations.
Does observing the state of something affect its state.
But even that could be irrelevant as God (infinite) could exist outside of the physical universe (finite) and its limitations.
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Lapidem
Member
They are indoctrinated. No-one has free will.
Correct.
Also, if free will existed then there would be no punishment by god for us taking any given action.
Free will means what it says. You are free to undertake any action of your will. But if any action at all is subsequently punished then it was never free. It was a false choice made with a gun to your head.
There are powerful people on this Earth who know that religion is false and there to control the masses and they know that there are NO RULES other than the laws of the universe (gravity, science etc). These people therefore kill people any time they wish. They can do anything.
The reality however is that they are still very limited in the choices they have. So it isn't really free will they have.
This is old ground.
If you are given a choice of a red ball or blue ball many would say that's a free choice. Free will. But if what you really want, what you really "will" is for a green ball then you're out of luck because that choice is not on offer. You have a limited choice. Not free will.
Life therefore is simply an extension of this system of very very limited choices. It isn't remotely free will.
In the context of Christian dogma, only god has free will. For only he can kill men, women, children, babies and as yet unborn babies with reckless abandon, at will, and get away with it Scott free. Only he can make earthquakes happen, tsunamis, hurricanes, volcanos erupt that result in millions of life forms dying and do it with freedom.
God is a dictator. A tyrant. An entity who rules by the law of :
"Do as I say, not as I do"
It beggars belief that Christians can't see it. But indoctrination and psychological abuse are very powerful weapons.
Rockerduck
Well-Known Member
I agree with Charles Spurgeon.
"Free will carried many a soul to hell, but never a soul to heaven.
Free-will doctrine-what does it? It magnifies man into God. It declares God's purposes a nullity, since they cannot be carried out unless men are willing. It makes God's will a waiting servant to the will of man, and the whole covenant of grace dependent on human action. Denying election on the ground of injustice, it holds God to be a debtor to sinners.
I do not come into this pulpit hoping that perhaps somebody will of his own free will return to Christ. My hope lies in another quarter. I hope that my Master will lay hold of some of them and say, "You are mine, and you shall be mine. I claim you for myself." My hope arises from the freeness of grace, and not from the freedom of the will.
Free will I have often heard of, but I have never seen it. I have always met with will, and plenty of it, but it has either been led captive by sin or held in the blessed bonds of grace.
We would labor earnestly to raise a believer in salvation by free will into a believer in salvation by grace, for we long to see all religious teaching built upon the solid rock of truth and not upon the sand of imagination. At the same time, our grand object is not the revision of opinions, but the regeneration of natures. We should bring men to Christ, not to our own particular views of Christianity.
His will cannot be neutral or 'free' to act contrary to his nature".
"Free will carried many a soul to hell, but never a soul to heaven.
Free-will doctrine-what does it? It magnifies man into God. It declares God's purposes a nullity, since they cannot be carried out unless men are willing. It makes God's will a waiting servant to the will of man, and the whole covenant of grace dependent on human action. Denying election on the ground of injustice, it holds God to be a debtor to sinners.
I do not come into this pulpit hoping that perhaps somebody will of his own free will return to Christ. My hope lies in another quarter. I hope that my Master will lay hold of some of them and say, "You are mine, and you shall be mine. I claim you for myself." My hope arises from the freeness of grace, and not from the freedom of the will.
Free will I have often heard of, but I have never seen it. I have always met with will, and plenty of it, but it has either been led captive by sin or held in the blessed bonds of grace.
We would labor earnestly to raise a believer in salvation by free will into a believer in salvation by grace, for we long to see all religious teaching built upon the solid rock of truth and not upon the sand of imagination. At the same time, our grand object is not the revision of opinions, but the regeneration of natures. We should bring men to Christ, not to our own particular views of Christianity.
His will cannot be neutral or 'free' to act contrary to his nature".
Lapidem
Member
If God is everywhere. He'd be in my coffee cup right? So the artist who sang about "clouds in my coffee" is saying she found the kingdom of heaven in a coffee cup. Is that the "Your so vain, you probably think this song is about you" Song? Let's find out:
Lapidem
Member
Yes
For "god" is really the universal energy that pervades everything. Problem is everything has gross matter which the life energy is trapped inside so getting to it is difficult. Easier to get it out of one thing than from another.
"This mineral water can be extracted only from those things which contain it; and that thing from which it is most easily obtained is difficult to discover, as is also the mode of its extraction. It dissolves gold without violence, is friendly to it washes away its impurities, and is white, warm, and clear. Without our Mercury, Alchemy could not be a science, but only a vain and empty pretence. If you can obtain it, you have the key of the whole work, with which you can open the most secret chambers of knowledge. Its nature is the same as that of gold, but its substance is different, and the preparation of it causes a great stench."
A Brief Guide to the Celestial Ruby, by Eirenaeus Philalethes, 1694 AD
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