From Law To Life

[Arnie Manitoba]

The new covenant is for all believers, Jew and Gentile. .

I am going to split hairs a bit here by saying it this way .....

The new covenant encompasses all believers .... Jews and gentiles alike ... yes of course.

But before that .... God did not have any "Old Covenants" with the pagan gentiles

So why do gentiles , who have come to Christ , then try to apply the old Covenant to themselves .... only to turn back toward Christ ... whom they already had in the beginning. It makes no sense whatsoever.

I feel that some remaining "Old Covenant" plans are still in the works for chosen Israel who have rejected Christ thus far .... but they remain under the law and do not experience the constant forgiveness and mercy we Christians are all familiar with.

We must keep in mind that God will still deal with (unbelieving) Israel in a unique way ..... and sometimes favorable ...... and at the very end they finally see the light and mourn for Jesus .... the one whom they pierced.

My point is (and it is clear in the bible) that God is not finished with Israel yet .... he has not tossed them out of his plans

And neither should we toss them out .... or "pretend' we are Israel in some make-believe spiritual way.

it is an error many Christians have made for many years.

That error will not keep us out of heaven .... but it sure messes with our proper understanding of Old and New Covenants in regard to differentiating between Jews and Gentiles.

God keeps his covenants with Israel ..... for His own reasons and His Holy name ..... not necessarily because they deserve it.

Nor will God abandon His covenant with Israel simply because some Gentile Christians object to it.

 

[BibleFeast]

Matt 5 17 “Don’t think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete. 18 Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from the Torah — not until everything that must happen has happened. 19 So whoever disobeys the least of these mitzvot and teaches others to do so will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever obeys them and so teaches will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness is far greater than that of the Torah-teachers and P’rushim, you will certainly not enter the Kingdom of Heaven!

Luke 16:16 Up to the time of Yochanan (John the baptist) there were the Torah and the Prophets. Since then the Good News of the Kingdom of God has been proclaimed, and everyone is pushing to get in. 17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter in the Torah to become void.

This is because the Law is always necessary to set the standard. Just as Galations said, it was a guide till Yeshua came, but this does not cancel it. If that were the case then why are we instructed throughout the bible to do the very things that it speaks of.

When we read psalm 119 we can see the law from a better perspective. Torah (law) means teaching, instruction, direction. It derives from a root word used in archery when aiming at a target. Sound farmillier? Philippians 3:14.

The Law should be seen as guidance that is transferable from old to new testament. Although some things develop within the law such as temple worship and sacrifices, the standards and principles stay the same. The law goes when Jesus takes it away.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

BibleFeast ..... do you realize you are confirming what I just said .... ??

Jesus is preaching to Israelis throughout the book of Matthew.

Mat 4:23 Jesus went throughout Galilee, teaching in their synagogues , proclaiming the good news of the kingdom,

 

[Netchaplain]

"The Law should be seen as guidance that is transferable from old to new testament."

"The law goes when Jesus takes it away."

Hi BF - God's motive is always the same--salvation for people--but His methods are not. The motive in the old covenant and new covenant are the same, but there cannot be two simultaneous Covenants (Heb 10:9), this is why the Law was to teach the Gospel (Gal 3:24) and Grace delivers men by the Gospel'

"Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second" (Heb 10:9).

The Law was due to Israel's lack of faith and "was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come" (Gal 3:19). God's promise of eternal life to all who are of "the faith of Abraham" (Rom 4:16) was given "four hundred and thirty years" before the Law was given; and the Law did not affect that promise in any way (Gal 3:17).

The difference between the two Covenants is going from conditional love, which is loving others as you love yourself, to an unconditional love, which is loving others as Christ loves us (John 15:12). Unconditional love is not within man's nature to perform, thus requires the regeneration and control of the Holy Spirit, because conditional love is within man's nature if he chooses to do so.

 

[Episkopos]

Hi BF - God's motive is always the same--salvation for people--but His methods are not.

I think this is the root of the problem. The above statement is not true. It is a man centered understanding. Of course God wants all men to come into conformity with His will...and thereby live, but salvation for salvation's sake...no.

 

[Netchaplain]

I think this is the root of the problem. The above statement is not true. It is a man centered understanding. Of course God wants all men to come into conformity with His will...and thereby live, but salvation for salvation's sake...no.

Hi E - I'm not sure what you mean by "salvation for salvation's sake but I do want to clarify my statement "His methods are not," which I mean by God's methods, not His method of saving but concerning His methods of reveling it, i. e. the Law pointed to it but the Gospel delivers it.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

Apart from your Romans 7 observation, about a believer. The rest seems like overkill. Apart from Axehead etc who has touched upon the pragmatics of holiness.

If one wants to talk about the mechanics of abiding in Christ and in his love and being Holy, then I suggest you all turn to Hebrews chapter 12:6-14 for a glimpse.



For whom the Lord loveth he 'chasteneth', and 'scourgeth' every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees; And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.

Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

NB: After all each and every disciple of Christ has his spirit within and it takes cooperation with GOD- see above - through the bowed/subdued soul(mind, emotions & will) to be partakers of his Holiness.

 

[Raeneske]

What one does shows what they are, not makes what they are, because saved or unsaved, everyone does what's in them to do; not what one does produces what's in them. An ungodly or godly lifestyle derives from an ungodly or godly heart; not an ungodly or godly lifestyle produces an ungodly or godly heart.

What's in the heart produces its type of works, not the type of works produces the type of heart. It's a matter of understaning the proper order of cause and effect and nothing is both.

Axehead was really driving upon some excellent points, and began asking you some very serious questions.

NetChaplain, are you saved? At this very point in your life right now, are you saved? Think about this. How do you know? If once saved always saved is true, how do you know if you're saved or not? Of course, only God can know %100. But my question is, where is your assurance? How can you be sure you are saved, if it is possible you are actually nothing but an unbeliever this entire time? Do you mean to say, "I hope I am saved"? But then you are only hoping you are saved, and not assured of your salvation.

Are you an unbeliever? Or are you saved? How do you know? Where is your assurance?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Axehead was really driving upon some excellent points, and began asking you some very serious questions.
NetChaplain, are you saved? At this very point in your life right now, are you saved? Think about this. How do you know? If once saved always saved is true, how do you know if you're saved or not? Of course, only God can know %100. But my question is, where is your assurance? How can you be sure you are saved, if it is possible you are actually nothing but an unbeliever this entire time? Do you mean to say, "I hope I am saved"? But then you are only hoping you are saved, and not assured of your salvation.
Are you an unbeliever? Or are you saved? How do you know? Where is your assurance?

Since I believe like NC does, I would like to answer for myself; NC can answer for himself.

Saved right now? Yes, through faith.

I know I'm saved through the holy spirit that has been given to me, who witnesses together with my spirit regarding what is written in the book.

We can know 100% because we have GOD's spirit. GOD knows all things and doesn't lie. The spirit is truth.

The assurance lies in the promises of GOD in scripture that are witnessed to my spirit by the living holy spirit.

 

[jiggyfly]

Seems to reason that it depends on how well one really knows his Savior.

 

[Raeneske]

Since I believe like NC does, I would like to answer for myself; NC can answer for himself.

Saved right now? Yes, through faith.

I know I'm saved through the holy spirit that has been given to me, who witnesses together with my spirit regarding what is written in the book.

We can know 100% because we have GOD's spirit. GOD knows all things and doesn't lie. The spirit is truth.

The assurance lies in the promises of GOD in scripture that are witnessed to my spirit by the living holy spirit.

It seemed like he was driving at Once Saved Always Saved, is that what you are driving at?

It seems to me, if OSAS is true, one can never know if they are saved. For they do not know whether they are surely part of God's church, or really they are just an unbeliever. What if one claims to be saved, as you do? How do you KNOW you are saved, and not just an unbeliever?

 

[Netchaplain]

Apart from your Romans 7 observation, about a believer. The rest seems like overkill. Apart from Axehead etc who has touched upon the pragmatics of holiness.

If one wants to talk about the mechanics of abiding in Christ and in his love and being Holy, then I suggest you all turn to Hebrews chapter 12:6-14 for a glimpse.


NB (NC?): "After all each and every disciple of Christ has his spirit within and it takes cooperation with GOD"

Hi JB and God's blessings to your Family? I believe what we choose, the Lord Jesus "keeps" or makes happen, because "in all things" He has the "preeminence" (Col 1:18).

The Lord Jesus does the keeping in everything, not the believer. The Father continually works, within the believer, the desire for His will to be done in him (Phil 2:13). The zeal of the believer to do God's will in his life is within reason but not in practicality, thus this desire becomes exuberance and misguidance, which is expected and normal.

I believe abiding in Christ is just as it states, in Him, not ourselves! It's not what we are in Him that serves as our support, but for our exhortation; our support for establishing practical godliness in everything is in what He is in us, for "He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him" (2 Tim 1:12).